Confusing Reduancy situation

[RubyRue]

Hi

 

My other half recieved a letter on Friday at the end of the day saying that he and two others were at risk of redundancy. They are saying that there is 3 working days for consultation, starting that Friday (19th June) and that if he has any suggestion of alternatives or questions to ring them (he is currently signed off sick for 4 weeks).

 

He rang up one of the directors yesterday (Monday) who told him they were currently looking at other jobs for him to do in the company and to come in this coming Friday to chat about it.

 

Now a letter was given to everyone in the company in a meeting yesterday (the other half hasn't recieved it being that he is off sick) saying that himself and the other two are leaving the company and that there will be no further reduancies

 

I thought that if he was being made redudant they had to consult with him, make the decision, then offer an appeal? It sounds as if they have made the decision already.

 

I was wondering what your thoughts are about the situation?

 

Many thanks

Edited June 23, 2009 by RubyRue

[georgejoseph1981]

My other half recieved a letter on Friday at the end of the day saying that he and two others were at risk of redundancy. They are saying that there is 3 working days for consultation, starting that Friday (19th June) and that if he has any suggestion of alternatives or questions to ring them (he is currently signed off sick for 4 weeks).

 

as per the ACAS redundancy consultation has to be done in good time. I am unsure if 2 days is good amount of time.

 

Now a letter was given to everyone in the company in a meeting yesterday (the other half hasn't recieved it being that he is off sick) saying that himself and the other two are leaving the company and that there will be no further reduancies

 

Were the other 2 individuals sick/ off long term as well?

 

I thought that if he was being made redudant they had to consult with him, make the decision, then offer an appeal? It sounds as if they have made the decision already.

I was wondering what your thoughts are about the situation?

 

It looks very unfair, He has the right to appeal and pass a grievance.

[RubyRue]

Hi

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

No the others aren't off sick. They recieved the at risk letter on the Friday. Luckily OH's dad works at the same company and he brought the at risk letter over Friday evening otherwise the directors were going to post it to him.

 

We've managed to get a hold of the second letter. Apparently it was handed out to everyone in a company meeting on Monday (the other two were present at that meeting). OH hasn't officially recieved that letter or been notified of it, we only managed to get it because someone in the company kindly emailed over a copy. It says that there are going to be no further redundancies and that OH and the two other are leaving and wishes them well in the future.

[georgejoseph1981]

Hi

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

No the others aren't off sick. They recieved the at risk letter on the Friday. Luckily OH's dad works at the same company and he brought the at risk letter over Friday evening otherwise the directors were going to post it to him.

 

We've managed to get a hold of the second letter. Apparently it was handed out to everyone in a company meeting on Monday (the other two were present at that meeting). OH hasn't officially recieved that letter or been notified of it, we only managed to get it because someone in the company kindly emailed over a copy. It says that there are going to be no further redundancies and that OH and the two other are leaving and wishes them well in the future.

 

They dont seem to have followed any set process to decide the redundancy. The redundancy consultation should include a formal discussion(s) with your other half, redundancy without consulting will result in a protective award and also he could claim for unfair dismissal.

[RubyRue]

None of that has happened, he was only given the at risk letter on the 19th June saying three working days consultation, then the confirmation that he was leaving was sent round the company on the 22nd.

 

Is it a good idea for him to go to the meeting on Friday and see what they have to say?

[georgejoseph1981]

None of that has happened, he was only given the at risk letter on the 19th June saying three working days consultation, then the confirmation that he was leaving was sent round the company on the 22nd.

 

Is it a good idea for him to go to the meeting on Friday and see what they have to say?

 

Yes he should definitely try to go. Is there a union where he works. They should have mentioned a clause for a work colleague or a trade union representative in the redundancy consultation notice - he should use an option to get representation or atleast a work colleague in the meeting.

 

You should keep a copy of the letter they issued confirming that he is leaving ( the one on the 22nd) - I am unaware how the company has decided on his redundancy without consulting him . Has he taken extra sick leave before the current 4 weeks of sick leave ?

[RubyRue]

No they don't have a union, I'm in Unison but I'm don't think that will help. I'll tell him to get someone to go into the meeting with him.

 

No, he's had a couple of days sick last year but that was about it. He's off work after an operation, the company were aware far in advance he was having the operation, he was off the Thursday (the day of the op) and the Friday to recover then he went straight back to work on the Monday. He then had to have an emergency operation the following Thursday (again he notified his work what had happened) and at that point was signed off for the 4 weeks, he's been off one and a half weeks so far, all covered by a sicknote.

 

He hasn't been given any of the selection criteria, any possible alternatives, what his redundancy package is etc. All the at risk letter said was that his job along with two others were at risk of redundancy, there would be the three working days consultation and if he had any queries he should call. The letter didn't actually invite him to a meeting and he hasn't had a request in writing, he only got to arrange the meeting on the Friday when he managed to get a hold of the director when he called up to find out what was happening.

[georgejoseph1981]

No they don't have a union, I'm in Unison but I'm don't think that will help. I'll tell him to get someone to go into the meeting with him.

 

No, he's had a couple of days sick last year but that was about it. He's off work after an operation, the company were aware far in advance he was having the operation, he was off the Thursday (the day of the op) and the Friday to recover then he went straight back to work on the Monday. He then had to have an emergency operation the following Thursday (again he notified his work what had happened) and at that point was signed off for the 4 weeks, he's been off one and a half weeks so far, all covered by a sicknote.

 

He hasn't been given any of the selection criteria, any possible alternatives, what his redundancy package is etc. All the at risk letter said was that his job along with two others were at risk of redundancy, there would be the three working days consultation and if he had any queries he should call. The letter didn't actually invite him to a meeting and he hasn't had a request in writing, he only got to arrange the meeting on the Friday when he managed to get a hold of the director when he called up to find out what was happening.

 

 

That is confusing.I think you should like at it with an open mind and see what comes out of it. From what you mentioned , the company has not invited him to a redundancy consultation , what is happenning on Friday can only be termed as a discussion - a redundancy consultation letter should ideally arrive stating the reasons for redundancy,number of people expected to be made redundant etc - maybe this is available at his work place. Its far too early then for the company to have stated that 3 people are leaving.

 

I guess it will all hang in suspense till the meeting.

[borisbeaver]

What people must remember is that if you give the advice "Join a union", in my experience, most unions won't help you if you have a pre-existing employment issue.

[RubyRue]

Sorry I have a few more queries, we've just found out that they are running the final payroll for those that they have said are leaving this Friday.

 

I'm assuming then this means that come Friday that in their eyes OH is no longer working for them?

 

Aren't they supposed to tell you what the redundancy package is, notice period etc (he's worked there for 7 years)? We haven't been told anything and from what we've been told they have said they are following the correct process.

[georgejoseph1981]

Sorry I have a few more queries, we've just found out that they are running the final payroll for those that they have said are leaving this Friday.

 

I'm assuming then this means that come Friday that in their eyes OH is no longer working for them?

 

Aren't they supposed to tell you what the redundancy package is, notice period etc (he's worked there for 7 years)? We haven't been told anything and from what we've been told they have said they are following the correct process.

 

Hello Ruby,

 

I am sorry about the issues you are going through. It is a legal requirement that they consult with your OH before terminating him and also consult for a good time and try to give him other options of work/redelpoyement. They also need to give the reason for redundancy and the manner in which the redundancy process will be effected - some of the criteria used by employers include:

 

1) performance.

2)Conduct

3)Skills/experience.

4) Sick Leave taken etc....

 

They need to make these matters clear. Else they risk getting fined a protective award - if the consultation did not happen properly.

 

I am thinking other people with similar skill sets/experience are continuing in your OH's workplace - the employer needs to clarify exactly how they chose him. Also he has the right to appeal against the decision. It might be good for him to go to work ASAP and find out what is happenning.

 

Matters about payouts are all discussed in the consultation meeting.

[RubyRue]

Thanks George for all that useful information, the OH is off the CAB today aswell to get their perspective on matters, he's going to try and ring the director today and get an earlier meeting with him to find out whats going on.

[heliosuk]

Whoa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

How many people employed at the company? Very important. If over I think 90 the there has to be a 90 day consultation period.

 

Mr Borisbeavers response is untrue and totally unacceptable. Unions will help and so Unison. If they don't let me know.

 

Automatically lodge a grievance to the company in that they failed to consult you whilst you were off sick. This should delay things to get your heads together.

 

MODERATORS NOTE. THERE IS A SET PROCEDURE IN EMPLOYMENT DISPUTES WHICH IS TIME CRITICAL. ADVISE ALL EMPLOYMENT ISSUES TO CONSULT ACAS WEBSITE FIRST.

 

It doesn't matter about the size of the company, they can't just get rid of people like you say.

 

If you are a member of Unison then I think like Unite, their legal team will represent familiy as well, though you need to talk to them. Also, most home insurance will cover this as well. Seems like an employer has shot their bolt here.

[RubyRue]

There are about 40 employees, I'm not sure how the OH or the others got selected they just got given a letter telling them they were at risk and that there would be three days consultation.

 

The OH spoke to one of the others who are at risk of redundancy yesterday and found out that the Friday when the at risk letters where issued she was called into a meeting, got told she was being made redundant and that nothing she said would make any difference. So I guess that shows that it is a sham really. I imagine that is what the OH will be also told on Friday.

 

The OH went to CAB and spoke to ACAS and they said basically the same thing, that they rules regarding discipline and dismissal changed in April but that doesn't apply to redundancies so I'm guessing if that is the case the old rules still apply, I've looked at ACAS and printed off their redundancy guidance and going by that the company are doing it wrong. OH also spoke to a solicitor yesterday and they recommended aswell raising a grievance in the Fridays meeting so we'll be writing that out today.

[georgejoseph1981]

There are about 40 employees, I'm not sure how the OH or the others got selected they just got given a letter telling them they were at risk and that there would be three days consultation.

 

The OH spoke to one of the others who are at risk of redundancy yesterday and found out that the Friday when the at risk letters where issued she was called into a meeting, got told she was being made redundant and that nothing she said would make any difference. So I guess that shows that it is a sham really. I imagine that is what the OH will be also told on Friday.

 

The OH went to CAB and spoke to ACAS and they said basically the same thing, that they rules regarding discipline and dismissal changed in April but that doesn't apply to redundancies so I'm guessing if that is the case the old rules still apply, I've looked at ACAS and printed off their redundancy guidance and going by that the company are doing it wrong. OH also spoke to a solicitor yesterday and they recommended aswell raising a grievance in the Fridays meeting so we'll be writing that out today.

 

Hi Ruby,

 

It does look like a sham ..yes... they need to make evident why they have chosen your OH for redundancy..the exact reason. Also he could if he wants submit a grievance and see the outcome - submitting it will not have a negative impact on the legal position of the case.

 

Regarding Union representation , a redundancy meeting is not a disciplinary "hearing" or a grievance "hearing" as per ERA 1999, section 10 , read in conjunction with Section 13( Anyone please correct me if I am wrong).

 

Depending on his end date, they have to accept his grievance and review it. As per the new changes introduced grievances cannot be submitted after employement ends, so he needs to submit it ASAP..you could include all the stuff with regards to being chosen for redundancy, lack of clarity in the criteria for being chosen etc. Dont worry, the steps the company have taken will not give them any benefit in the legal sense.

 

Hope this helps,

George.

[RubyRue]

Hi sorry to keep bomarding with questions I have another one.

 

I've just re read the at risk letters, it states that they are looking to make a total of three redundancies from the following departments/roles and lists the departments which includes OH's department. It then says that the proposal is to apply selection critieria to all the employees within the department. Fair enough.

 

However this is why I'm a bit confused, can a selection criteria be applied to a department of one? The letter is making it sound that there are a number of employees within each department that a selection criteria would be applied to, to determine who will be made redundant, in reality that isn't the case, there is only one person in what they determine to be departments doing that role, or have I just read it incorrectly.

[georgejoseph1981]

Hi sorry to keep bomarding with questions I have another one.

 

I've just re read the at risk letters, it states that they are looking to make a total of three redundancies from the following departments/roles and lists the departments which includes OH's department. It then says that the proposal is to apply selection critieria to all the employees within the department. Fair enough.

 

However this is why I'm a bit confused, can a selection criteria be applied to a department of one? The letter is making it sound that there are a number of employees within each department that a selection criteria would be applied to, to determine who will be made redundant, in reality that isn't the case, there is only one person in what they determine to be departments doing that role, or have I just read it incorrectly.

 

Hi Ruby,

 

What I have understood is that they have decided to make your OHs role redundant which might signify the closing down of a department ( which in this case is just your OH). Now, the questions which need to be answered is what is happenning to that department, why is it being closed and what will happen to the work handled by the department/OH - more exactly speaking - is the role being made redundant due to a new system coming to effect , offshoring or just that the company feels the need for that activity has come to an end , or is it coming to an end because the activities are being assigned to someone else - all this needs to be clear - so that you can be assurred of transparency and you know why the role is being made redundant

 

Also , it is important that the company based on your husbands skillsets, try to redeploy him to a different area within a different department - The ACAS would advice the same - to minimize redudnancies and try doing stuff like reduced pay, part time working etc etc - before a final step of redudnancy is taken - both ways he needs to go to the meeting and talk with them.

[RubyRue]

Thanks so much George, very useful, I'm trying to understand as much as possible so he can ask the correct questions in the meeting, I have a feeling they won't be able to answer any of them but it is important that he asks them and gets a record of him asking!

[georgejoseph1981]

Thanks so much George, very useful, I'm trying to understand as much as possible so he can ask the correct questions in the meeting, I have a feeling they won't be able to answer any of them but it is important that he asks them and gets a record of him asking!

 

The approach he takes is very important. He should give them a chance to speak and he should if possible write down that as much as possible from the conversation and then start firing his questions. Once they are locked onto a comment, they will find it very hard to back track and the meeting minutes will have a mention of this.

 

In your OHs case the company can never ever justify deciding on whom to make redundant even before consultation started and without giving your OH other options as mentioned in my other post and that is something he needs to ask them. He also should appeal against the decision, if they concretely decide on something.

 

All the Best.

[heliosuk]

Hi Ruby,

What George says is spot on. OH can also take a colleague or union rep in to listen, advise or take notes. In the past, I've seen it's important for someone to take notes other than OH as he will be preoccupied with the questions and answers so to speak.

 

I'm also miffed about the consultation time. I always thought that if there were over 30 employees in the company then the consultation time was 90 days but I might be getting confused with the number of redundancies ( vice versa so to speak )

 

Whatever the outcome "keep your powder dry" and take it one step at time. Do everything like you are doing in a calm and collected manner.

 

Very best of luck as it seems a total balls up by the company, which unfortunately seems to be the way these days.

 

"Ne tait carborundum illegitimi"

[RubyRue]

Hi

 

Well he had the meeting, lasted all of 15 minutes, they confirmed he is redundant, that it was a foregone conclusion and said his last day is the end of June and gave him a letter with his redunancy package on and he has 5 days to appeal. That was the only information they gave him, nothing about consultation, selection criteria etc etc.

 

So I'm guessing the next step is to appeal it on the grounds of not following the process and raise the grievance?

[georgejoseph1981]

Hi

 

Well he had the meeting, lasted all of 15 minutes, they confirmed he is redundant, that it was a foregone conclusion and said his last day is the end of June and gave him a letter with his redunancy package on and he has 5 days to appeal. That was the only information they gave him, nothing about consultation, selection criteria etc etc.

 

So I'm guessing the next step is to appeal it on the grounds of not following the process and raise the grievance?

 

Hi Ruby,

 

Sorry about what has happenned. He needs to act fast by sending the Grievance and also giving an appeal. Do contact the ACAS and see what they have to say.

 

Do you feel the sick leave he took could have caused the problem? Did they reveal anything else. I think you should jsut see lawyer or a no win no fee lawyer and see what they have to say, in any case he is entitled to a protective award, since the consultation itself has not happenned and you can legally prove that. If they are not paying him for his notice period, they are in breach of contract and that is a straight 25k fine in a tribunal.

[RubyRue]

Hi George, thanks not nice but not a surprise really by the way they were acting.

 

They didn't mention anything about the sickness, he is signed off for another two weeks but they have said his last day is the 30th June. All they kept saying in the meeting was because of the current climate they were cutting the role and the work would be done by the rest of the company. They admitted they had already decided to make him redundant.

 

I think they may try and use the sickness as an excuse for not consulting him however the first thing he did when recieving the at risk letter was to speak to the director and offered to come into the office asap, other than the letter and the meeting today they haven't contacted him or communicated anything to him.

 

He has been given a letter regarding his package so I'll have to have a look and see what it says about if they are paying him in leiu of notice, I haven't had a chance to see it yet. I'm pretty sure it doesn't mention holiday pay etc either.

 

He has spoken to a solicitor this morning after the meeting and they advised him to write his appeal letter and send it in asap aswell so we'll be doing that this evening.

[RubyRue]

I've read the letter they are paying him in lieu of notice but there is nothing about accrued holiday and he will be paid on the 22nd July.

 

The letter is dated the 24th June so they had already made their mind up before the meeting. All it gives as a reason is in the current economic climate his role was no longer viable.

[georgejoseph1981]

I've read the letter they are paying him in lieu of notice but there is nothing about accrued holiday and he will be paid on the 22nd July.

 

The letter is dated the 24th June so they had already made their mind up before the meeting. All it gives as a reason is in the current economic climate his role was no longer viable.

 

 

Hi Ruby,

Its good you contacted the solicitor, you also need to check your home insurance or contents cover - most of the time legal insurance is provided with these insurance products and can be used in a case of unfair dismissal. The catch is that these companies will not pay for using your own solicitor and they appoint their own solicitors.

 

Its good if the your OHs company has a feeling that there is pending legal action and they might be in a mess. Also, keep a copy of all emails detailing his performance and all other paperwork with you, before he leaves.

 

He can claim for unfair dismissal and also the protective award . A solicitor will be able to give you the numbers better in case you take them to a tribunal.

 

Let us know of the outcomes.

Best Regs,

George.