GE Debenhams store card sold to CL finance

[I've got no money]

Hi IGNM,

it is MBNA - you know them so well:D

 

MBNA acquired the account from another company, before assigning to a DCA. Would that mean two NoAs are relevant?

 

If the original NoA between MBNA and original card provider was invalid, then surely they wouldn't have the right to pass it on to the DCA, as they didn't own it in the first place?

 

It depends - this sounds like a John Lewis chargecard - on whether there was an actual assignment first time around or whether you opened a new account.

 

If there was an assignment then yes there would need to be an NoA BUT don't forget that there are no formal requirements for the contents of an NoA.

 

If it is, however, right that there was no valid NoA between the OC and MBNA then you're right that MBNA would not have title to assign to somebody else

[underdog13]

It depends - this sounds like a John Lewis chargecard - on whether there was an actual assignment first time around or whether you opened a new account.

 

If there was an assignment then yes there would need to be an NoA BUT don't forget that there are no formal requirements for the contents of an NoA.

 

If it is, however, right that there was no valid NoA between the OC and MBNA then you're right that MBNA would not have title to assign to somebody else

 

Thanks IGNM,

 

MBNA bought the account from the original card provider, so am I right in thinking that this would be an assignment rather that the opening of a new account?

 

What about the deed of assignment - that has to be strictly accurate to be valid, doesn't it?

 

If it came to court could I request sight of both DoAs, or would I have to get the original DoA via SAR? If I can get the DoA via a SAR?

[beachcomber60]

Just an update on this one, I am expecting poo to start flying around shortly.

 

Having sent a cca request to CL way back in March - this was totally ignored by CL.

 

In April I sent a cca reminder which was again totally ignored without any form of acknowledgement.

 

I have a taped telephone conversation with CL in which I asked why they had not replied to my CCA request in which the woman states that they are awaitin the OC to provide it to them, I stated that under OFT guidelines I am entitled to withold any further payments until such time as the CCA is produced, she replied that CL are fully aware that payments can be stopped until they comply, the problem is GE not CL.

 

I have stopped the payments to CL because a) they have not complied with my CCA request. b) GE have confirmed that the account is so old they do not have a copy of the original agreement, c) CL were advised of this by GE back in May and given advice on how to proceed (found this out as part of my SAR to GE), d) after pushing GE I managed to get a very very poor photocopy of a microfiche file of the 'agreement'.

 

I have filed a reclaim of ppi with GE/Santander of in excess of £9,500, to which they have acknowledged receipt and investigating my complaint with an answer within four weeks, should I have sent a copy of this to CL? - PPI is three times the outstanding balance.

 

Havent done anything about late/overlimit charges as they amount to less then £100 .

 

Fully expect a court claim within a week or so & just want to prepare myself - so if there is anything I should be doing in the meantime please advise me, for some reason CL will not communicate with me

 

Beachy

[beachcomber60]

While sorta expected a reply but :-

 

Dear Beachy

 

I understand that your complaint is regarding Account Cover insurance.

 

Having checked your account details, I can confirm Account Cover insurance consisting of price, payment & purchase protection was added Dec. 1989, when we received your signed credit agreement and opened your account. I am unable to enclose a valid copy of the agreement due to the time elapsed.

 

I note that you say that you were not told that the policy was optionalwhen it was taken out in Dec. 1989, but I also note that the process that we had in place was to make clear that it was not compulsory. I can confirm that on the agreement you signed, it asked you to sign if you required the Account Cover, which you did. (No - I signed for a Debenhams Store Card - there was no seperate section to be signed for account cover nor is there a box to be ticked. I do have a very bad photocopy of a microfiche, virtually unreadable but in the payment protection there is nowhere to sign nor tick and I can just make out something along the lines of 'Payment Protection Plan, if you do not wish to be protected simply return by Freepost the cardholder ??? unreadable).

 

Therefore it appears that it was made clear that the policy was optional and that you elected to take out the insurance. Once a customer has decided to take the product, a policy summary and policy document is mailed to the customer for their review. We also offer a 30 day no quibble guarantee where the product may be cancelled, and any premiums refunded (subject to no claim being made). This allows time to compere the policy to that of any other insurance companies.

 

In relation to your reference to the sales process in store, there is no requirement upon us to record the sales process and so we have no way of knowing what took place in Dec. 1989. However, if any of the matters that you suggest took place, you would have been able to call at any time in the first 30 days and we would have removed the insurance from the account.

 

Since you opened the account, this insurance has been clearly shown on your statements, when a balance has been outstanding, and could have been cancelled or a claim made at any time.

 

I understand that you believe you were not covered by Account Cover insurance, as you were self employed. However, you were covered by the insurance as I can confirm that being self employed does not exclude you from the main benefits of the cover. (but it does exclude me from some benefits then?)

 

The Account Cover was upgraded on ** Sept 1998 & ** July 2003 and a new Terms & Conditions would have been sent at these times. (News to me!)

 

As I can find no evidence of mis-selling of this insurance, I am unable to refund the premiums applied to your account. I can confirm the insurance was cancelled ** Jan. 2006.

 

If you remain dissatisfied with our response you may refer the complaint to the Finance & Leasing Association using the details below. (Think they are as much use as a chocolate fire guard as far as the consumer is concerned).

 

Beachy

[beachcomber60]

I would be very interested if any CAGGER has a clearly readable Debenhams Store Card application form dating from 1989 - 1991 where the payment protection section is clearly readable.

 

The reason is that I have smacked a claim in for ppi against GE/Santander & they have responded with I signed the box for it, they cant supply a copy of the agreement as they have admitted (twice) that the orginal no longer exists.

 

I do have a very bad photocopy of a microfiche, the ppi section is virtually unreadable but I can just make out that with regard ppi it says something along the lines of 'Debenhams Payment Protection Plan if you do not want this cover simply use the Freepost to return the card.....' which means to me that it wasnt optional!

 

This is going to be a long battle but the stakes are high.

 

Santander also state that they are not responsible for Debenhams store staff actions in promoting the Store Card and applications.

[dx100uk]

oh yes they are

 

go get 'em.

 

and don't forget the interst + 8% stat.

 

have a read of the guidance notes by alanalana, they are very good.

 

dx

[beachcomber60]

oh yes they are

 

go get 'em.

 

and don't forget the interst + 8% stat.

 

have a read of the guidance notes by alanalana, they are very good.

 

dx

 

Thanks DX,

 

Thought that would be the case, the Debenhams staff were more interested in signing me up and promoting the card with a 10% discount on purchases if I took the card out ( as they still do to this day!) never even mentioned ppi.

 

The 'debt' is with CL I've cca'd them without reply or compliance - sent a reminder without getting a reply, so I have stopped paying them - expecting a court claim any day going on what I;ve read about them.

 

Have a letter from GE stating that the original agreement no longer exists and one from Santander stating the same after they bought GE.

 

The outstand balance is about £3900 and my claim for ppi is about £9500 including interest and the 8%, so if CL shove a court claim my way can I counter claim the ppi from them as they own the debt absolute.

 

Mind you, they and GE never severed an assignment letter and GE never issued a default notice - they state that DN are system generated and copies arent kept.

 

Starting to panic a wee bit regarding CL, not sure if I did the right thing in stopping payments due to non complaince to my cca request (March!).

 

beachy

[dx100uk]

quite within your rights

NO CCA = NO PAY

and they know it.

 

go get that PPI back

 

good luck

 

dx

[beachcomber60]

No one got any comments on GE/Santanders utter bull**** of a response?

[pompeyfaith]

I note that you say that you were not told that the policy was optionalwhen it was taken out in Dec. 1989, but I also note that the process that we had in place was to make clear that it was not compulsory. I can confirm that on the agreement you signed, it asked you to sign if you required the Account Cover, which you did.

 

EVEN IF YOU DID SIGN YOU WERE NOT AWARE THAT PPI INSURANCE WOULD BE THE SUBJECT OF MUCH MEDIA AND REGULATORY ATTENTION DUE TO IT BEING GROSSLY MIS-SOLD AS IN YOUR CASE AND TOTALLY UNFAIR

 

We also offer a 30 day no quibble guarantee where the product may be cancelled, and any premiums refunded (subject to no claim being made). This allows time to compere the policy to that of any other insurance companies.

 

 

WELL THE FSA AND OFT HAVE ALREADY RULED THAT POLICIES SHOULD NOT BE SOLD WITH A FINANCIAL PRODUCT SO ITS FAR TO SAY THIS APPLIED IN 1989

 

Since you opened the account, this insurance has been clearly shown on your statements, when a balance has been outstanding, and could have been cancelled or a claim made at any time.

 

AS ABOVE IT HAS ONLY RECENTLY BEEN BROUGHT TO YOU ATTENTION THOUGH THE MEDIA THE FAILINGS OF THIS PRODUCT

 

I understand that you believe you were not covered by Account Cover insurance, as you were self employed. However, you were covered by the insurance as I can confirm that being self employed does not exclude you from the main benefits of the cover.

 

EASY FOR THEM TO SAY THAT NOW BUT WAS IT BROUGHT TO YOUR ATTENTION AT THE TIME OF SALE I GUESS NOT

 

The Account Cover was upgraded on ** Sept 1998 & ** July 2003 and a new Terms & Conditions would have been sent at these times.

 

WELL THATS FOR YOU TO PROVE THEN

 

If you remain dissatisfied with our response

 

TOO RIGHT I DO

 

PF

 

 

 

[pompeyfaith]

In other words do not give up yet still plenty to fight for

 

Regards

 

PF

[beachcomber60]

Evening PF

 

The stakes are high on this one, no intention of giving up.

 

At the time Deb. counter staff 'signed me up' they were more interested in getting my signature on the application form & promoting the 10% discount on purchases that day for taking the card out ( something I notice they still do today), did a bit of digging & not only were GE heavily fined (£600k + for mis selling ppi insurance they have also been heavily critisized in the past for the poorly trained stores staffS methods of promoting the cards ( OFT mystery shoppers), not allowing customers the opportunity of leaving stores with the application forms to decide if they wanted ppi.

 

I only have a very poor photocopy of a microfiche as far as ppi is concerned there is nowhere to sign for ppi or even a tick box, only a short statement that reads something along the lines of if you do not wish to have this cover simply use Freepost returning your card - as I say its very poor but you can just make out a few words.

 

So the fight is firmly on, although it does look like a court case - any knowledge of successful claims via the courts?

 

Sorry for any spilling miztooks - using iPhone in me truck - Michael Woods services M5 north bound.

 

Beachy

[pompeyfaith]

well funny u mention courts as im about to start a court claim myself in the next week or two im amazed that GE are putting up a fight comsidering they have been fined by the fsa

[beachcomber60]

Thanks PF, I wish you well with your court action, I will follow with interest as I think I'll end up taking GE to court over this as well.

 

(Like your new avatar by the way).

[pompeyfaith]

Thanks Beachy,

 

As for the avatar its apt in the 20th century as they all want are money.

[beachcomber60]

 

They can want all they like!

 

BUT we also want our money back that they have 'taken' off us.

[pompeyfaith]

Indeed and if you are anything like me i aint gona give up

[GhostDebt]

Interesting.

I am currently going through a court case with CL and think I will have to check the ppi figures as well for the counterclaim.

Regards

[beachcomber60]

OK so I have locked horns with GE over my own account, now fighting the cause on behalf of Mrs beachy, have sent GE a letter stating that her cca request is outstanding and that what they previously sent (post #1) is not her cca.

 

Have now received a letter from them stating;-

 

'I have noted your comments regarding the copy of the agreement we have supplied. However, this is a true copy that we are obliged to provide when requested under the Data Protection Act 1998 and it contains your signature. There is no requirement for us to supply you with a further copy.'

 

What they sent does not contain any section where a signature can be made let alone "it contains your signature".

 

I am sure what they sent is not enforceable as I cannot see any of the prescribed terms - let alone OH's signature they claim is there

 

Beachy

[PGH7447]

send them this

 

Send by recorded....and edit as required

 

Account In Dispute

 

Ref:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. A copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE**.

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore

 

 

You are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 78(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have Failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

__________________

 

[beachcomber60]

Afternoon Caggers,

 

If its any help to anyone dealing with GE over ppi, I have done a bit of digging so far as GE is concerned over the ppi issues - as I previously said I aint letting this one go!

 

Taken from the FLA guidelines for agreements made before 1st September 2000 :-

 

4.0 Credit Protection Insurance

 

4.1 Members shall ensure that customers are made aware, where appropriate, of the availability of credit protection insurance.

 

4.2 Details of the major items of cover and exclusions under credit protection insurance policies arranged by the member, including eligibility criteria, shall be set out both clearly and prominently in appropriate literature. Customers shall be given this information, together with the cost of the cover, prior to making a decision to apply for insurance or at the time that an application for insurance is made.

 

4.3 Customers shall be supplied with full details of the credit protection insurance policy terms as soon as possible after making of the agreement (but not more than 21 days after the making of the agreement or before any instalment becomes due under it, whichever is later).

 

Turning to the FSA my research finds that GE Capital were fined £610k for failing to train hundreds of thousands of shop workers in correct procedures for selling payment protection insurance (PPI) and for failing to treat its customers fairly, clients include Debenhams, Arcadia, House of Frazer ….

 

GECB’s main business is providing credit finance through store cards, credit cards and sales finance. The store cards are usually branded in the name of the retailers (who are appointed representatives of GECB).

 

Sales: The firm failed where appropriate to review, amend and then operate its sales procedures to ensure that all customers received adequate information about the policy before they made a decision on whether to take insurance.

 

Training: In light of evidence that sales staff were not complying consistently with its sales procedures, the firm failed to amend its training procedures.

 

Monitoring & Management Information: The firm failed where appropriate to ensure its monitoring procedures were effective and failed to act in response to management information which was collected and available.

 

Customers: The firm failed to implement any procedure to contact customers to remedy the non-compliant sales identified by its monitoring procedures.

 

Compliance: The firm failed to resource the compliance function adequately.

 

Both the in-store and telephone sales are ‘non-advised’ which means that GECB does not recommend the insurance policy as suitable for particular customers. For non-advised sale the obligation on firms is to provide the appropriate information to customers in good time before the sale to enable the customer to make an informed decision as to whether the insurance is necessary or suitable. In this case, important information about the insurance was not provided to all customers in good time before the conclusion of the contract, and in some instances telephone customers were provided with inaccurate or misleading information about the insurance.

 

GECB was in breach of the FSA’s Principles for Business 2,3 and 6.

 

Principal 2: A firm must conduct its business with due skill, care and diligence.

 

Principal 3: A firm must take reasonable care to organise and control its affairs responsibly and effectively, with adequate risk management systems.

 

Principal 6: A firm must pay due regard to the interests of its customers and treat them fairly.

 

I hope that they will now take my compliant seriously and investigate within the eight weeks.

 

 

Beachy

Edited July 29, 2009 by beachcomber60

[pompeyfaith]

fantastic research beachy it is this that will get u results now go forth and use this information to good effect well done PF

[pompeyfaith]

oh and if u have any links to the above information can u pass them onto alanalana so he can sticky them 4 others fighting GE MONEY thanks PF

[alanalana]

Quality bit of research beachy

 

Well done.

 

If you can link please do so and I will add it into the big links sticky

 

aa

[beachcomber60]

Evening PF & AA,

 

Thanks for the comments, I'am afraid I took exception to GE's response in that they feel they aren't responsible for the actions of store assistants when dealing with opening store cards accounts - hence the reason to go digging for info.

 

The links for stickys are:-

 

GE's fine -

 

FSA fines GE Capital Bank

 

Finance & Leasing Association Members Consumer Codes of Practice -

 

FLA :: Consumer finance :: Consumer Codes of Practice

 

when this page opens you select the year of your agreement and a PDF file opens with the code of practice covering that agreement period, the one I quoted in my earlier post was for agreements made prior to 1st September 2000.

 

Research is Power , I have already fired off a letter to them in reply to their bog off letter.

 

Hope this helps follow Caggers.

 

Regards Beachy