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URGENT - please help - Natwest County Court claim - CCA Thread

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Please help me - I have no idea what to do next....I'm tempted just to let the court papers go through as I have no way to pay all my creditors and Egg have already successfully applied 2 CCJs and put a charge on my house.

 

The story is...

 

I received a court claim from Shoosmiths on behalf of Natwest in Nov 2008. The claim was for 2 bank accounts and a loan account that I defaulted on several years ago and have been paying via the CCCS under a DMP.

 

Their Particulars of Claim were vague and incomplete so I sent a request for information letter under the Civil Procedure Rules - asking for copies of the credit agreement, all records, details of charges etc. I received a letter back basically stating that I was fishing for information and could only ask for relevant information.

 

I sent an Acknowledgement of Service to the court stating that I would defend and submitted the following defence:

 

1. The particulars of claim discloses no cause of action and are self evidently an abuse of process, in that they fail to deal with the basic rules of pleading in accordance with the CPR (even allowing for the constraints of the bulk issue system).

2. Further to that above the defendant is unable to plead effectively or at all. The defendant is embarassed.

 

Shoosmiths on behalf of Natwest responded with a pack of paperwork with reference statements for the accounts, a signed copy of the application form for one bank account and terms and conditions; a copy of the executed credit agreement for the loan account and copies of lots of statements.

 

The judge finally ordered that Natwest must submit amended particulars of claim giving full deatils of account balances and setting out the contractual basis for its claim by 22/05/09 and that I must submit an amended defence by 22/05/09

 

On the 20th May, having had nothing from Shoosmiths/Nat West, I wrote to the court (and phoned) stating I had received no amended Particulars of Claim and asking for the matter to be referred back to the Judge. I then received a General Form of Judgement ordering that I must submit an amended defence by 19/06/09 or judgement would be made.

 

I phoned, wrote and faxed the court to state again that I had received no amended Particulars of Claim and asking for the matter to be referred back to the Judge and for the Claim to be struck out.

 

I have now received (dated 15th June 09 - served 17th June) a General Form of Judgement or Order with the amended Particulars of Claim from Natwest/Shoosmiths giving me to the 3rd July 09 to submit an Amended Defence - with details of the accounts, amounts owing, a signed copy of the application form for the main bank accounts (with terms and conditions and copies of bank statements from 2002 to the Nov 2008), a signed copy of the credit agreement for the loan account with statements, and copies of bank statements for the minor account but no agreement.

 

The one challenge with this date is that I am holiday from 27th June with my 2 teenage sons who I haven't seen in 2 years - my ex-wife took them to live in Canada and didn't send them back for holidays as agreed in a unenforceable UK court order.

 

I obviously had run up the overdrafts on 2 bank accounts - originally totaling about £16,000 - had a Nat West Gold Card with approx £800on it that they paid from my bank account. With interest added even though I was under a DMP, the total has risen to over £21,000. The loan account with interest has risen to over £13,000.

 

They are claiming £33,200.66 and costs.

 

What can I do? Do I just accept that they have continued to add interest (I did borrow the money originally), let the claim go through and eventually end up with another CCJ, and a futher charging order?

 

Note my house now has the mortgage, a secured loan, a charging order for moeny lent by family, a charging order by Egg, a charging order from my solicitors (years of legal fights over my children) - there is no equity left!

 

Please help - any advise is greatfully accepted. Sorry for the long post.

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I've flagged the CCA issues to another mod who will assist you with that.


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Hmmm... This could get a complicated thread, but lets deal with that when it happens, as you have several issues here; (in order of importance as I see them)

 

- Sufficiently stated claim;

It would be good to see the original POC and the amended POC (removing personal/identifying details)

 

- Shoosmiths right to bring the claim;

They are probably only acting for NW, but who were you paying previously via DMP?

 

- Enforceable debts;

These debts appear to be regulated by the Consumer Credit Act, as intimated by BankFodder above. If you could scan everything they've sent you and post. (again remove personal data) This will be the sticking point, I think, as most overdrafts/loans I've seen from NW (including mine!) are totally unenforceable.

 

- Correctly terminated/defaulted accounts;

Not such a straightforward affair as you may think. If they have Default/Term notices that have been sent, we'd need to see those too.

 

- Charges applied;

These loads of reading for you to do here on the forums, but if the Test Case shows the charges are unfair, all Notices sent on the accounts will be inaccurate, potentially unlawful. If you can post what you've received so far, that would be good.

 

The good news is you seem to have done everything by the book at this stage, which is a bonus for you as they are clearly being unreasonable. I would think that the Court will take their behaviours very seriously at the later stages, but we need to know if you have a decent case before we get too excited about that.

 

Oh, there's some links in my signature you should read also - the "intro to Consumer Credit Litigation", "Is My Agreement Enforceable?" and the "Overdrafts and the CCA" ones seem of particular interest. Oh, don't forget the beginners guide to CAG as you're new ;)


Always happy to help where I can!

:lol:

Beware of legal advice given on a private forum - do you REALLY know who is posting? Are they REALLY accountable for their posts? What if you follow their advice and get something wrong?

It was Winston Churchill who said; "Democracy is the worst way to run a country except for all the others"

 

Advice and comments posted by car2403 are offered purely without prejudice. They reflect only my personal opinion and do not represent the opinion of this forum or it's management. You should always seek legal advice from a qualified legal advisor. As a member of the site team, I disable reputation - reputation points mean nothing, please check my posting credentials yourself and make an informed decision. You shouldn't PM me and await a reply - I may be too late with a response. No replies will be given in Private Messages - just as with getting advice from the forum, getting advice via Private Messages is dangerous. CAG is about sharing successes so others can follow your example, this is primarily why I'm here, so please don't be offended if I don't offer replies in PM that doesn't comply with this. Help CAG to help others by keeping your thread up to date.

 

 

USEFUL LINKS; New User Guide to CAG | Can't find what you're looking for? | Intro to Consumer Credit Litigation | Is My Agreement Enforceable | Default (Surleybonds) Template Letter | Defaults - background, removal methods, challenges and taking a claim to Court | Digital Signature Guide | Overdrafts and the CCA

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I See that mod:Car2403 wants to see the POC as well as the agreements here.

Please will you scan them into separate posts as it will make it easier to deal with.


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Hmmm... This could get a complicated thread, but lets deal with that when it happens, as you have several issues here; (in order of importance as I see them)

 

- Sufficiently stated claim;

It would be good to see the original POC and the amended POC (removing personal/identifying details)

 

- Shoosmiths right to bring the claim;

They are probably only acting for NW, but who were you paying previously via DMP?

 

- Enforceable debts;

These debts appear to be regulated by the Consumer Credit Act, as intimated by BankFodder above. If you could scan everything they've sent you and post. (again remove personal data) This will be the sticking point, I think, as most overdrafts/loans I've seen from NW (including mine!) are totally unenforceable.

 

- Correctly terminated/defaulted accounts;

Not such a straightforward affair as you may think. If they have Default/Term notices that have been sent, we'd need to see those too.

 

- Charges applied;

These loads of reading for you to do here on the forums, but if the Test Case shows the charges are unfair, all Notices sent on the accounts will be inaccurate, potentially unlawful. If you can post what you've received so far, that would be good.

 

The good news is you seem to have done everything by the book at this stage, which is a bonus for you as they are clearly being unreasonable. I would think that the Court will take their behaviours very seriously at the later stages, but we need to know if you have a decent case before we get too excited about that.

 

Oh, there's some links in my signature you should read also - the "intro to Consumer Credit Litigation", "Is My Agreement Enforceable?" and the "Overdrafts and the CCA" ones seem of particular interest. Oh, don't forget the beginners guide to CAG as you're new ;)

 

Hi Chris

 

The POCs are as follows:

 

Original:

 

a>

 

Amended:

 

a>

a>

AmendedPOC_0003.jpg

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The other documents are as follows:

 

a>

a>

a>

a>

LoanCreditAgreement_0002.jpg

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Hmmm... This could get a complicated thread, but lets deal with that when it happens, as you have several issues here; (in order of importance as I see them)

 

- Sufficiently stated claim;

It would be good to see the original POC and the amended POC (removing personal/identifying details)

 

- Shoosmiths right to bring the claim;

They are probably only acting for NW, but who were you paying previously via DMP?

 

- Enforceable debts;

These debts appear to be regulated by the Consumer Credit Act, as intimated by BankFodder above. If you could scan everything they've sent you and post. (again remove personal data) This will be the sticking point, I think, as most overdrafts/loans I've seen from NW (including mine!) are totally unenforceable.

 

- Correctly terminated/defaulted accounts;

Not such a straightforward affair as you may think. If they have Default/Term notices that have been sent, we'd need to see those too.

 

- Charges applied;

These loads of reading for you to do here on the forums, but if the Test Case shows the charges are unfair, all Notices sent on the accounts will be inaccurate, potentially unlawful. If you can post what you've received so far, that would be good.

 

The good news is you seem to have done everything by the book at this stage, which is a bonus for you as they are clearly being unreasonable. I would think that the Court will take their behaviours very seriously at the later stages, but we need to know if you have a decent case before we get too excited about that.

 

Oh, there's some links in my signature you should read also - the "intro to Consumer Credit Litigation", "Is My Agreement Enforceable?" and the "Overdrafts and the CCA" ones seem of particular interest. Oh, don't forget the beginners guide to CAG as you're new ;)

 

Hi Chris - I'm not sure that posting the links to photobucket is working - can you see the documents?

 

Regards Chris

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No


Always happy to help where I can!

:lol:

Beware of legal advice given on a private forum - do you REALLY know who is posting? Are they REALLY accountable for their posts? What if you follow their advice and get something wrong?

It was Winston Churchill who said; "Democracy is the worst way to run a country except for all the others"

 

Advice and comments posted by car2403 are offered purely without prejudice. They reflect only my personal opinion and do not represent the opinion of this forum or it's management. You should always seek legal advice from a qualified legal advisor. As a member of the site team, I disable reputation - reputation points mean nothing, please check my posting credentials yourself and make an informed decision. You shouldn't PM me and await a reply - I may be too late with a response. No replies will be given in Private Messages - just as with getting advice from the forum, getting advice via Private Messages is dangerous. CAG is about sharing successes so others can follow your example, this is primarily why I'm here, so please don't be offended if I don't offer replies in PM that doesn't comply with this. Help CAG to help others by keeping your thread up to date.

 

 

USEFUL LINKS; New User Guide to CAG | Can't find what you're looking for? | Intro to Consumer Credit Litigation | Is My Agreement Enforceable | Default (Surleybonds) Template Letter | Defaults - background, removal methods, challenges and taking a claim to Court | Digital Signature Guide | Overdrafts and the CCA

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Try again

 

Amended POC:

 

AmendedPOC_0001.jpg

AmendedPOC_0002.jpg

AmendedPOC_0003.jpg

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Other documents:

FinanceApplicationForm_0002.jpg

FinanceApplicationForm_0003.jpg

FinanceApplicationForm_0004.jpg

LoanCreditAgreement_0001.jpg

LoanCreditAgreement_0002.jpg

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First page from the Advantage Premier Finance Application:

 

FinanceApplicationForm_0001.jpg

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Hi Car2403/Chris

 

Any comments on the documents?

 

Regards

 

Chris

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Unfortunately for you, they all seem in order.

 

The loan, to be enforceable, requires prescribed terms of amount, interest rate and repayments.

 

For the overdraft, what you've posted is the agreement for the Account. What is key with overdrafts is that they sent you details of the interest rates and Default/Termination methods of the agreement before, or shortly after, signing up for it. It isn't clear from what you've posted if they have or not.


Always happy to help where I can!

:lol:

Beware of legal advice given on a private forum - do you REALLY know who is posting? Are they REALLY accountable for their posts? What if you follow their advice and get something wrong?

It was Winston Churchill who said; "Democracy is the worst way to run a country except for all the others"

 

Advice and comments posted by car2403 are offered purely without prejudice. They reflect only my personal opinion and do not represent the opinion of this forum or it's management. You should always seek legal advice from a qualified legal advisor. As a member of the site team, I disable reputation - reputation points mean nothing, please check my posting credentials yourself and make an informed decision. You shouldn't PM me and await a reply - I may be too late with a response. No replies will be given in Private Messages - just as with getting advice from the forum, getting advice via Private Messages is dangerous. CAG is about sharing successes so others can follow your example, this is primarily why I'm here, so please don't be offended if I don't offer replies in PM that doesn't comply with this. Help CAG to help others by keeping your thread up to date.

 

 

USEFUL LINKS; New User Guide to CAG | Can't find what you're looking for? | Intro to Consumer Credit Litigation | Is My Agreement Enforceable | Default (Surleybonds) Template Letter | Defaults - background, removal methods, challenges and taking a claim to Court | Digital Signature Guide | Overdrafts and the CCA

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Unfortunately for you, they all seem in order.

 

The loan, to be enforceable, requires prescribed terms of amount, interest rate and repayments.

 

For the overdraft, what you've posted is the agreement for the Account. What is key with overdrafts is that they sent you details of the interest rates and Default/Termination methods of the agreement before, or shortly after, signing up for it. It isn't clear from what you've posted if they have or not.

 

Looks like I'm stuck - I guess I'll phone Shoosmiths tomorrow and accept the debt - now they have provided the information.

 

Thanks for your help

 

Regards

 

Chris

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