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URGENT - please help - Natwest County Court claim - charges thread


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Please help me - I have no idea what to do next....I'm tempted just to let the court papers go through as I have no way to pay all my creditors and Egg have already successfully applied 2 CCJs and put a charge on my house.

 

The story is...

 

I received a court claim from Shoosmiths on behalf of Natwest in Nov 2008. The claim was for 2 bank accounts and a loan account that I defaulted on several years ago and have been paying via the CCCS under a DMP.

 

Their Particulars of Claim were vague and incomplete so I sent a request for information letter under the Civil Procedure Rules - asking for copies of the credit agreement, all records, details of charges etc. I received a letter back basically stating that I was fishing for information and could only ask for relevant information.

 

I sent an Acknowledgement of Service to the court stating that I would defend and submitted the following defence:

 

1. The particulars of claim discloses no cause of action and are self evidently an abuse of process, in that they fail to deal with the basic rules of pleading in accordance with the CPR (even allowing for the constraints of the bulk issue system).

2. Further to that above the defendant is unable to plead effectively or at all. The defendant is embarassed.

 

Shoosmiths on behalf of Natwest responded with a pack of paperwork with reference statements for the accounts, a signed copy of the application form for one bank account and terms and conditions; a copy of the executed credit agreement for the loan account and copies of lots of statements.

 

The judge finally ordered that Natwest must submit amended particulars of claim giving full deatils of account balances and setting out the contractual basis for its claim by 22/05/09 and that I must submit an amended defence by 22/05/09

 

On the 20th May, having had nothing from Shoosmiths/Nat West, I wrote to the court (and phoned) stating I had received no amended Particulars of Claim and asking for the matter to be referred back to the Judge. I then received a General Form of Judgement ordering that I must submit an amended defence by 19/06/09 or judgement would be made.

 

I phoned, wrote and faxed the court to state again that I had received no amended Particulars of Claim and asking for the matter to be referred back to the Judge and for the Claim to be struck out.

 

I have now received (dated 15th June 09 - served 17th June) a General Form of Judgement or Order with the amended Particulars of Claim from Natwest/Shoosmiths giving me to the 3rd July 09 to submit an Amended Defence - with details of the accounts, amounts owing, a signed copy of the application form for the main bank accounts (with terms and conditions and copies of bank statements from 2002 to the Nov 2008), a signed copy of the credit agreement for the loan account with statements, and copies of bank statements for the minor account but no agreement.

 

The one challenge with this date is that I am holiday from 27th June with my 2 teenage sons who I haven't seen in 2 years - my ex-wife took them to live in Canada and didn't send them back for holidays as agreed in a unenforceable UK court order.

 

I obviously had run up the overdrafts on 2 bank accounts - originally totaling about £16,000 - had a Nat West Gold Card with approx £800on it that they paid from my bank account. With interest added even though I was under a DMP, the total has risen to over £21,000. The loan account with interest has risen to over £13,000.

 

They are claiming £33,200.66 and costs.

 

What can I do? Do I just accept that they have continued to add interest (I did borrow the money originally), let the claim go through and eventually end up with another CCJ, and a futher charging order?

 

Note my house now has the mortgage, a secured loan, a charging order for moeny lent by family, a charging order by Egg, a charging order from my solicitors (years of legal fights over my children) - there is no equity left!

 

Please help - any advise is greatfully accepted. Sorry for the long post.

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hi, im not an expert but i think if you dont get your amended defence in they are going to ask for a summary judgement without a hearing. you could phone the court and ask them for some more time to get your defence in and see what they say.

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You must deal with the paperwork or else you will lose everything - very quickly.

 

I have no doubt that a fair amount of the alleged debt is comprised of unlawful charges.

 

You will be able to defend on those and so you need to find out how much they are.

 

Can you explain this

I have now received (dated 15th June 09 - served 17th June) a General Form of Judgement or Order with the amended Particulars of Claim from NatWest/Shoosmiths giving me to the 3rd July 09 to submit an Amended Defence - with details of the accounts, amounts owing, a signed copy of the application form for the main bank accounts (with terms and conditions and copies of bank statements from 2002 to the Nov 200:cool:, a signed copy of the credit agreement for the loan account with statements, and copies of bank statements for the minor account but no agreement.
You seem to be saying that you have to submit details of amounts owing etc. This can't be right.

Please will you clarify.

 

Also, what does their new POC say?

 

You seem to be saying that you have got some of your statements. Is this correct?

 

You need to go through them very carefully. Identify all of the charges which have been taken from you and also any interest which you have paid on those charges.

You need to identify what statements or other information is missing from the documents which you have.

 

There will be no point in asking the court for extra time here. However I don't think that you will need it for the moment and it will be much better to show that you have reacted correctly all the time and that NW have tried to dodge and fudge - which they appear to have done.

 

Keep in close contact with the thread.

Let me know:-

 

How much in charges has been taken (including interest which you have paid)

What statements are missing

What is the level of overdraft at the moment.

 

 

On the Egg judgments, it is highly likely that much of this may be comprised of charges too. You need to re-visit this issue too.

 

Have you got any statements relating to your Egg accounts?

 

If not, then you need to do an immediate SAR to Egg asking for all data which they hold on you in any form, relating to any matter and in respect of any period.

Do this now. Don't hang around.

 

If you are lucky, there may be sufficient charges to reduce the Egg debt or to re-open the case altogether.

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I've flagged the CCA issues to another mod who will assist you with that.

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Hmmm... This could get a complicated thread, but lets deal with that when it happens, as you have several issues here; (in order of importance as I see them)

 

- Sufficiently stated claim;

It would be good to see the original POC and the amended POC (removing personal/identifying details)

 

- Shoosmiths right to bring the claim;

They are probably only acting for NW, but who were you paying previously via DMP?

 

- Enforceable debts;

These debts appear to be regulated by the Consumer Credit Act, as intimated by BankFodder above. If you could scan everything they've sent you and post. (again remove personal data) This will be the sticking point, I think, as most overdrafts/loans I've seen from NW (including mine!) are totally unenforceable.

 

- Correctly terminated/defaulted accounts;

Not such a straightforward affair as you may think. If they have Default/Term notices that have been sent, we'd need to see those too.

 

- Charges applied;

These loads of reading for you to do here on the forums, but if the Test Case shows the charges are unfair, all Notices sent on the accounts will be inaccurate, potentially unlawful. If you can post what you've received so far, that would be good.

 

The good news is you seem to have done everything by the book at this stage, which is a bonus for you as they are clearly being unreasonable. I would think that the Court will take their behaviours very seriously at the later stages, but we need to know if you have a decent case before we get too excited about that.

 

Oh, there's some links in my signature you should read also - the "intro to Consumer Credit Litigation", "Is My Agreement Enforceable?" and the "Overdrafts and the CCA" ones seem of particular interest. Oh, don't forget the beginners guide to CAG as you're new ;)

Always happy to help where I can!

:lol:

Beware of legal advice given on a private forum - do you REALLY know who is posting? Are they REALLY accountable for their posts? What if you follow their advice and get something wrong?

It was Winston Churchill who said; "Democracy is the worst way to run a country except for all the others"

 

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USEFUL LINKS; New User Guide to CAG | Can't find what you're looking for? | Intro to Consumer Credit Litigation | Is My Agreement Enforceable | Default (Surleybonds) Template Letter | Defaults - background, removal methods, challenges and taking a claim to Court | Digital Signature Guide | Overdrafts and the CCA

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Hi BankFodder - sorry if I wasn't clear - but Natwest/Shoosmiths have sent the details - to which I have to respond. I appear to have all (or most) of the statements.

 

I'm just reading how to attach scanned documents.

 

My worry is that I am away on business several days this week - it is one of the busiest weeks of the year for me at work and I'm working 12 to 15 hour days all week. Then picking up my sons from Heathrow on Saturday and going on holiday for 8 days - which leaves me almost no time. Do you think the court will allow more time?

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Hmmm... This could get a complicated thread, but lets deal with that when it happens,

Yes, you are right.

Let's split the thread into charges and CCA threads.

 

I'll copy some posts into a new CCA thread

 

Please would you divide up the scanned docs into their appropriate threads

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Sorry to appear stupid - but where did the scanned docs I posted go?

 

Why split the post up? Surely all I need to do at the moment is put together an Amended Defence? Is it that the Defence will consist of objections to the validity of the agreements and claims on charges?

 

I'm lost - I'm a newbie here....

 

Regards Chris

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Hi BankFodder - sorry if I wasn't clear - but Natwest/Shoosmiths have sent the details - to which I have to respond. I appear to have all (or most) of the statements.

 

I'm just reading how to attach scanned documents.

 

My worry is that I am away on business several days this week - it is one of the busiest weeks of the year for me at work and I'm working 12 to 15 hour days all week. Then picking up my sons from Heathrow on Saturday and going on holiday for 8 days - which leaves me almost no time. Do you think the court will allow more time?

No I don't think that they will allow more time and I'm afraid that this is so serious and it has been left so late that you had better re-prioritise something.

 

You need to identify every charge and also the interest levied on those charges. you need to get it all into one of our spread sheets, calcualte 8% pa on all of the money they have taken you effective from each date that they took the money from you.

 

You need to put in your SAR starightaway - special delivery - tomorrow.

Ask for all data they hold on you in any form on any matter and relating to any period.

 

The you will have to put in your defence and counterclaim.

 

You will deny that you are indebted as alleged or at all.

 

You will assert that the alleged debt is comprised either wholly or substantially of charges which are invalid under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regs 1999.

You will ask the court that you have now served the claimants with a statutory personal data request under the Data Protection Act 1998 and that you reserve the right to amend your defence once they have compplied with their statutory duty.

 

The on the same document you will counterclaim

 

You will allege that between the dates of XXXX and XXXX the claimants levived £XXXX charges and interest on your account in respect of various unauthorised activity.

 

You now understand that these charges and interest are unfair under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts regs as they are charged at an excessive rate.

You will then assert that as they are unfair, they are invalid and are not binding on you.

 

Therefore you seek their return plus 8% interest pursuant to S.69 County Courts Act 1984.

 

Total money owed by the clalimant - £XXXXX

Plus 8% at xxday June 2009 - £xxxx

 

total- £xxxxx

 

plus 8% continuing at xxx pence per day until settlement or such earlier judgment.

 

You had better settle in for a long night.

 

The court won't wait.

 

You'll feel better for it once its done and it won't take you as long as you think.

 

It really isn't a joke. you should have done it ages ago but you can rescue the situation if you go all out.

 

This should buy you some time and if things go as normal, because it is a charges related case, it may well get stayed until the outcome of the charges case in Sept/Oct

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I deleted the scanned docs as they were too long.

 

There are desitinct issues here and they need to be dealt with separately for ease and simplicity.

 

The threads are now split up into charges and CCA. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/205595-urgent-please-help-natwest.html

Post the charges stuff on the charges one etc.

 

This is now the charges thread.

 

Please repost the POC here

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Keep your eye on the CCA thread and see what is recommended there. You should try to deal with the CCA issue in the same defence.

 

Let us know as quickly as possible what the charges figure is

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No I don't think that they will allow more time and I'm afraid that this is so serious and it has been left so late that you had better re-prioritise something and personally I don't think that it should be your boys.

 

You need to identify every charge and also the interest levied on those charges. you need to get it all into one of our spread sheets, calcualte 8% pa on all of the money they have taken you effective from each date that they took the money from you.

 

You need to put in your SAR starightaway - special delivery - tomorrow.

Ask for all data they hold on you in any form on any matter and relating to any period.

 

The you will have to put in your defence and counterclaim.

 

You will deny that you are indebted as alleged or at all.

 

You will assert that the alleged debt is comprised either wholly or substantially of charges which are invalid under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regs 1999.

You will ask the court that you have now served the claimants with a statutory personal data request under the Data Protection Act 1998 and that you reserve the right to amend your defence once they have compplied with their statutory duty.

 

The on the same document you will counterclaim

 

You will allege that between the dates of XXXX and XXXX the claimants levived £XXXX charges and interest on your account in respect of various unauthorised activity.

 

You now understand that these charges and interest are unfair under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts regs as they are charged at an excessive rate.

You will then assert that as they are unfair, they are invalid and are not binding on you.

 

Therefore you seek their return plus 8% interest pursuant to S.69 County Courts Act 1984.

 

Total money owed by the clalimant - £XXXXX

Plus 8% at xxday June 2009 - £xxxx

 

total- £xxxxx

 

plus 8% continuing at xxx pence per day until settlement or such earlier judgment.

 

You had better settle in for a long night.

 

The court won't wait.

 

You'll feel better for it once its done and it won't take you as long as you think.

 

It really isn't a joke. you should have done it ages ago but you can rescue the situation if you go all out.

 

This should buy you some time and if things go as normal, because it is a charges related case, it may well get stayed until the outcome of the charges case in Sept/Oct

 

Hi BankFodder - I read when this case started that as a court case was underway, I didn't need to put in a Subject Access Request - but request disclosure under the Civil Procedure Rules - so I sent the following:

 

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION

I have received a recent court claim from your organisation. In order to file a defence and counter claim I require some information. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules, the information and documents detailed below.

The information must be furnished within fourteen days of the receipt of this letter. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an Order enforcing your compliance will be sought.

 

1. A true copy of the executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened.

2. All records you hold on me relevant to this case, including but not limited to

 

a. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor.

b. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with National Westminster Bank plc.

c. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

d. Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

e. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

f. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

g. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

h. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

i. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

3. Any other documents you seek to rely on in court.

 

I will require this information within the next fourteen days. I must advise you that if the information is not forthcoming, it will be reported to the Court that you are trying to frustrate proceedings and denying me the opportunity to file a defence and counter claim.

I received no information in reply to this, hence my embarrassed defence originally.

 

It wasn't until The Judge finally ordered that NatWest must submit amended particulars of claim giving full deatils of account balances and setting out the contractual basis for its claim by 22/05/09 that the pack that arrived 2 days ago came - with the statements and the scanned documents.

 

Does this change matters? Do I still now need to send in a SAR?

 

Where do I find the spreadsheet to calculate interest? I will review the statements tonight.

 

Thanks Chris

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I deleted the scanned docs as they were too long.

 

There are desitinct issues here and they need to be dealt with separately for ease and simplicity.

 

The threads are now split up into charges and CCA. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/205595-urgent-please-help-natwest.html

Post the charges stuff on the charges one etc.

 

This is now the charges thread.

 

Please repost the POC here

 

Original POC link:

OriginalPOC.jpg

 

Amended POC link:

a>

a>

a>

 

Hope this is ok.

 

Regards Chris

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If you think that you have all the material you need then you don't need the SAR. However, the CPR application is OK but you can see that it doesn't have much teeth. SAR's are always more powerful - although they take more time.

If you think that there is more info to get then put in the SAR. It will also look better for the judge when he is looking at your whole position.

 

Send CAR 2403 a pm telling him that you now have the agreements posted up on the CCA thread and ask him to look them over for you.

 

The spreadsheet should be in the library but you may need to root around a bit. This forum has really outgrown itself.

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Is that the latest POC? I don't think that it is. We don't need to see superceded documents

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Is that the latest POC? I don't think that it is. We don't need to see superceded documents

 

I put both the original and the new ones up

 

I can see them - I posted a link to photobucket

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OK. Can you delete the original as it is confusing.

 

You'll need to ask car2403 to have a look at the CCA. It's not my area.

 

You sill have to set out your defence so that it has an order which broadly addresses the points which they have raised in their POC.

 

You can treat the two bank accounts as one so head that up:-

Accounts no.s XXXX and XXXX

 

Then deal with the charges issue at one go.

 

If there are issues with the CCA then raise those separately in the next section of your defence.

 

Pm car2403 and then get started on your charges.

 

Also, don't forget to SAR Egg tomorrow.

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If you think that you have all the material you need then you don't need the SAR. However, the CPR application is OK but you can see that it doesn't have much teeth. SAR's are always more powerful - although they take more time.

If you think that there is more info to get then put in the SAR. It will also look better for the judge when he is looking at your whole position.

 

Send CAR 2403 a pm telling him that you now have the agreements posted up on the CCA thread and ask him to look them over for you.

 

The spreadsheet should be in the library but you may need to root around a bit. This forum has really outgrown itself.

 

 

Hi BankFodder - I found the spreadsheet and went through all the statements for my main account. Do I do this for the loan account (no charges, just interest applied on a monthly basis)?

 

Here is the spreadsheet results £303 penalties charged, £131.24 interest on penalties- it doesn't seem spectacular against the debt of approx £20,000 on this account. Is this worth proceding on this basis?

 

Natwestmainaccountchargesandinteres.jpg

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Well I'm extremely surprised at this and I think that I have gotten completely ahead of myself here.

 

You spoke of having run up an overdraft on two accounts to about £16k and also defaulting on a loan - now £13k.

 

I don't know about the loan, however, with this very low level of charges on the accounts it suggests that you ran the accounts pretty well but they closed you down merely because of the loan default. Could that be correct?

 

When you ran up the overdraft, was that all agreed with the bank?

 

You are quite right that this puts a different light on the problem and I'm sorry to say that it makes it very much more difficult.

 

Are these really all of the charges which you have had throughout the entire history of the accounts?

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Well I'm extremely surprised at this and I think that I have gotten completely ahead of myself here.

 

You spoke of having run up an overdraft on two accounts to about £16k and also defaulting on a loan - now £13k.

 

I don't know about the loan, however, with this very low level of charges on the accounts it suggests that you ran the accounts pretty well but they closed you down merely because of the loan default. Could that be correct?

 

When you ran up the overdraft, was that all agreed with the bank?

 

You are quite right that this puts a different light on the problem and I'm sorry to say that it makes it very much more difficult.

 

Are these really all of the charges which you have had throughout the entire history of the accounts?

 

Hi BankFodder

 

I ran up an overdraft on one account which with interest is now over £20k, the other account had an overdraft of approx £1k. Because I managed within the overdraft limit most of the time (either by increasing the limit or by stupidly taking cash from credit cards) there are few charges on the account. Most of the increase is from interest continuing to be added to the bill at whatever standard rate Natwest are charging.

 

The loan account has interest added quarterly with payments made monthly - I don't think there are any charges (maybe a small default charge)

 

On that basis - what do you think about how to proceed? It would be easier to accept Natwest's figures (argue costs as they didn't meet the original CPR request) and not have to go to court (all that paperwork plus court would cost me a day off work). I could phone them and negotiate a few hundred pounds off for charges.

 

Thanks again

 

Chris

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I'm sorry to say that you may be right. With this level of debt, you will be liable for a great deal of costs and it would be in your best interests to try and appear to be as gracious and as coooperative as possible.

Frankly I wouldn't even bother to mention the charges as it will only get their back up and make them less likley to talk with you.

You can always go and get the charges back later when the HoL has ruled on them in Sept/Oct.

 

I'm afrai that with all of the burdens which are against your property at the moment and the size of this debt, you may well be looking at a charge and an order for sale.

You may want to think about putting the house on the market now so that you can sell it on your terms rather as a result of an enforced sale which would meana lower value.

I think that you need to go and see some very serious debt counsellors.

 

I'm very sorry that I raised some hope for you yestderay in the way that I did. You've done very well to raise your limits and keep ahead of the game in the way that you have - however they clearly have seen you as a bit of a cash cow and they probably have lent quite irresponsibly.

 

I don't know what to advise. You should keep looking at the CCA and also you should SAR Egg to see what is available there.

 

I think that this is the first time on this forum that I have given such bleak advice.

 

I hope that the meeting with your sons goes well. I hope that it will be the first of many meetings.

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