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archeryfish

Penalty Charge Notice - Wirral Bebington

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Hi all,

 

I'm after some advice.

I was up on the wirral monday and tuesday for a family funeral this week.

My brother needed to pay some cash into the bank in bebington village on the way to the funeral so I pulled up on a single yellow line, he got out. I waited 4-5mins in the car and he got back in the car and we went off to the funeral.

Anyway I get a PCN through the door today with 3 photos of my car at just after 10am.

The contravention is 'Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours (Code 01)' I did not see any signs saying I couldn't park there, my brother has lived there many years (i live many miles away now) and he was not aware of this CCTV activity. Do I have any grounds for not paying the excessive £70 fine ?

It says I can pay £35 if received within 21days. I feel that the 'fine' is completely excessive to the amount of time I was waiting, perhaps £2-3 nominal charge I would consider paying but not £35-70

Any advice gratefully received.

 

Archeryfish.

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How can you state you parked on a SYL then go on to say there was nothing to say you cannot park......have you read the highway code? Having said that you need to check the PCN is worded correctly and that the time of the restriction was either on the street or it was a CPZ.

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The lines and signs within the Wirral area are some of the worst in the Country.

I visited this locations and all the bays I saw were non compliant, and the signs had bits of tape blotting out the restrictions. €The norm was utter non compliance, worse than Leeds by a mile.

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check out the 1st page of the pcn..

 

//tinypic.com/view.php?pic=20zbf5s&s=5

 

(have had to remove the http bit to get it through the post as a newbie)

 

having trouble scanning in 2nd page :- references the specified grounds if I believe that the penalty charge should not be paid to make representations to wirral borough council. one of which is 'the penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances in the case' which surely is applicable... redface.gif

 

 

cheers

Archeryfish

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2nd page with specified grounds for representations..

 

(again http: removed so I can post this..)

 

//tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2f0do1v&s=5

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How can you state you parked on a SYL then go on to say there was nothing to say you cannot park......have you read the highway code?

 

In fairness, if there was no sign visible (CPZ or otherwise) then the OP would not know at what time the single yellow line was restricted. If this happened to be a double yellow line G&M then I could not argue against your point.

 

A single yellow line should have a sign placed at intervals of 60 metres (unless controlled by a CPZ sign). If the line is less than 60m then the sign should be in the middle of the line.

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In fairness, if there was no sign visible (CPZ or otherwise) then the OP would not know at what time the single yellow line was restricted. If this happened to be a double yellow line G&M then I could not argue against your point.

 

A single yellow line should have a sign placed at intervals of 60 metres (unless controlled by a CPZ sign). If the line is less than 60m then the sign should be in the middle of the line.

 

A single yellow sign is fair indication that you may not be able to park which the OP seems to have overlooked there is no mention of missing timeplates or CPZ signs nor any mention he even looked.

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No help for this occasion, but if the OP had dropped his brother off, driven round the block, then picked him up again, I believe this would have been allowed under the "alighting" exemption.

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My brother warned me on exiting the car that there are traffic wardens that occasionally patrol the street in question. I honestly thought he'd be a couple of minutes (2-3) in the bank not 5 minutes. The stupidity on my behalf on reflection is I know that If i had parked around the corner it was free to park there.. I've done a check on the traffic regulations for wirral and there is one that states for the code1

 

'Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours'

'observation period' 3 minutes

'fine' £70

 

Do I have any grounds for offering a reduced fee? surely even the 50% reduced payment within 21days of 35quid is disproportionate to the offence :eek:? If i'd got out the car done a bit of shopping and returned 30mins later then fair play i'd accept it on the chin, but this leaves a foul taste in my mouth .

There is also a 'free car park' for the somerfield nearby which I could have parked in.. Like i said if i'd known i wouldn't have parked there..

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A single yellow sign is fair indication that you may not be able to park which the OP seems to have overlooked there is no mention of missing timeplates or CPZ signs nor any mention he even looked.

 

In his initial post archeryfish states

 

"I did not see any signs saying I couldn't park there"

 

This implies that he did look and if he did look but was unable to see any sign (as stated) then it is possible the time plate was missing.

 

Yes you are right a single yellow line is a fair indication that you may not be able to park but without a timeplate the line is ineffective.

 

Archeryfish you really need to establish whether you were in a CPZ or whether the time plate is missing or you simply failed to look properly.

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Ok my brother has checked out the area for me.

He said that there are yellow signs that are envelope size 3" high x 6" wide - yellow rectangle 7am-7pm with a red circle and line through it on lamposts (approx 20-30yds along).

Also that someone else has been done, by someone with a mobile CCTV unit, not a fixed camera along the same stretch of road recently- the husband of the owner of a card shop on that street as he waiting to pick his wife up.

 

Now 1) Do the signs have to be a particular size? I DEFINITELY did not see them .

2) The contravention code 01 states 3minutes observation time.

 

I have been recorded as 3mins 16seconds. If I left immediately after this (3mins 20secs) does this not still count as 3minutes? i.e. to get a fine 4minutes or more is required?

 

I'm planning on making representations on the 'procedural impropriety by the enforcement authority' ..

 

unless anyone else has any better ideas or is the general consensus i don't have a leg to stand on?

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For the sign size see diagram 639

 

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/02311347.gif

 

Legally there does not need to be any observation time however, if a council state an observation policy then they should follow that policy. So, in your case, as long as they observed for 180 seconds they have honoured that policy.

 

As the case is that there was a sign in situ and you were given the correct observation period I do not see what procedural impropriety occurred.

 

The only other options to explore are as G&M first advised....check the PCN wording is compliant. Upload it and we can assist you. Another option is to check that the yellow line restriction is supported by a valid traffic regulation order and you could also request the CEO's log book and see if it contains any errors.

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An observation period is just that a period to observe if any exemption should be allowed it is NOT a grace free parking period. If you were seen leaving the car without unloading then return without any goods to load within the observation period a valid PCN could be issued.

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I appreciate that the circumstances have no bearing on the penalty being awarded or not.. If I hadn't felt pressed for time - I didn't want to be late for a funeral I definitely wouldn't have parked there..

So it seems take it on the chin and take the reduced fee of £35 is my only option..

 

thanks for all your input on this.

 

Archeryfish

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I appreciate that the circumstances have no bearing on the penalty being awarded or not.. If I hadn't felt pressed for time - I didn't want to be late for a funeral I definitely wouldn't have parked there..

So it seems take it on the chin and take the reduced fee of £35 is my only option..

 

thanks for all your input on this.

 

Archeryfish

 

One of the benefits/bad things (depending on point of view) about cctv parking enforcement is that the whole thing is captured on tape. Where as before you could have appealled on various grounds loading,broke down etc and it would be your word against theirs and the Council would have to in effect call you a liar with cctv it would clearly show no exempt activity took place.

I didn't wish to sound rude with my original post but it frustrates me the number of drivers that don't seem to have a clue about parking signage. It never ceases to amaze me the number of people that drive and still don't understand even the basics such as the meaning of yellow lines, often thinking such things as SYL are free parking on Sundays or you are allowed to wait for 5 mins on yellow lines regardless of what you are doing. I actually spoke friend of a friend the other day who has been a delivery driver for 3 years who didn't realise that he could not load if there are kerb blips and didn't get why he kept getting PCNs.

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It never ceases to amaze me the number of people that drive and still don't understand even the basics such as the meaning of yellow lines, often thinking such things as SYL are free parking on Sundays or you are allowed to wait for 5 mins on yellow lines regardless of what you are doing. I actually spoke friend of a friend the other day who has been a delivery driver for 3 years who didn't realise that he could not load if there are kerb blips and didn't get why he kept getting PCNs.

 

I have to agree with you here.......makes one wonder if there should be a regular test on the highway code so that motorists keep up to date and remain familiar with it.

 

The delivery friend not an emloyee for 3663 by any chance?

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I have to agree with you here.......makes one wonder if there should be a regular test on the highway code so that motorists keep up to date and remain familiar with it.

 

The delivery friend not an emloyee for 3663 by any chance?

 

No I think parking on a loading restriction or pedestrian crossing is compulsory training for 3663 drivers who must be the worst culprits going, no wonder they have a team fighting all their PCNs. Maybe if they made the drivers pay they would get a few less to deal with, its amazing the number you see unloading illegally whilst a legal spot is only yards away.

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Folks,

 

thought i'd give you an update on this. As the PCN was sent by post I was not willing to travel 200miles to view the CCTV pictures, which I was entitled to see under the DPA /FoI. So I asked for the photos via email (and to delay the payment required time still at the discounted rate.)

 

Now I admit I was in the wrong to park there for 3 - 4minutes but i was interested to see this below where people have successfully appealed via the Traffic Penalty Tribunal :

 

''An independent tribunal last week ruled that two tickets issued in Victoria Road, New Brighton, were wrong because there were no signs warning motorists they may be photographed.''

 

ANOTHER GLOBE EXCLUSIVE: NEW BRIGHTON COUPLE'S VICTORY OVER SPY CAR FINE (From Wirral Globe)

 

Is there a case for anyone to appeal under these grounds?

 

regards

Archeryfish

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An update to all,

 

Following the appeal by the lady in New Brighton regarding lack of CCTV signage and placed an online appeal on the wirral council website.

I have successfully appealed it, as they have decided to drop the PCN on this occasion.

 

happy days.

Shows what persistence can do :-)

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