Council tax and Bailiff issue

[saintx]

HI to everyone, I'm new here. Apologies for zooming in on a particular thread without formal introduction.

 

Your site/forum has been very informative and much help. I just have a particular question.

 

Bailiffs are now on me for a sum of £668.00. This was from a court summons issued in .... 1998, and 2000. A property I lived in 9 years ago with two other tenants. I received notification that a court summons had not been paid on a property occupied a very long time ago. If this comes out all babbling and wotnot, it's only because it's absolutely confounding me how this can be gotten away with.

 

I called the Borough and stated:

A. This was for a property I lived in 9 years ago. How am I supposed to prove I never paid this sum.

B. If you found me, why can you not find the other names listed as 'liable'. One person listed I know for a fact lives in the same exact borough. But they can't find her. I can. I went to her house last week. We had coffee. Same address she's had all her life in that same borough.

C. I never received any notification the account was in arrears. And I always did re-direction of mail, and filled out that stupid form the council gives you to say what your previous address was. I never received one single notification that the summons had never been paid. And funnily enough, even with the other names attributed to this account, I was in full contact with the Council sorting out and clearing the account.

 

My question is:

How long is a court summons valid? The first one issued was in 1998. I had already moved out of the property by late 1999. Can't find other tenant liable - lost contact with him years ago. The second one issued was for Feb 2000 through Aug 2000. I was nowhere near that address, and wasn't even dating the girl anymore that's listed as liable with me! But the Council knew where I was living because I stayed in that borough for 8 years. Always filling out the necessary forms, re-directions blah blah. I still have good relations with previous landlords! Not once did they say something had come through the door looking like a summons on THEIR property.

 

These summons are almost a decade old. And one is questionable whether I'm liable to pay for it issued when I wasn't even living at that address.

 

And also --- if the summons has the address correct, the account number correct, but has your name wrong, are you still accountable? As in, if the summons to appear in magistrates court says Person ******* must appear in court, but they have your name wrong (because no one gets my surname right. And it's very easy.) is that not kind of a loophole? If it's not my given name by birth, regardless of ties to the property or account, it's not my name. The person ordered into court is a complete mystery to me by error on their part. The Council were always informed how to correctly spell my surname. As are every other provider, and no one ever gets it right.

 

Any help would be appreciated while I ignore the bailiffs.

[hallowitch]

welcome to C A G hope this helps

 

but please start your own thread you will get more response to your questions that way

i have copied and pasted below for you as one of your question is much the same as jonny england

 

Originally Posted by jonny england

the liability orders are 1999 2000 2001 2002 !!!!

 

this is the answer from tomtubby bailiff expert

 

Can you please confirm that dates of these Liability Order as there would appear to be a problem with enforcing Liability Orders issued so long ago.

 

I believe the case law on this is R v Thameside Magistrates Court & Thameside MBC Ex Parte Coleman & Davenport 1998 and that this provides that a local authority should not delay more 4 than years between obtain a Liability Oder and Distress.

[MARTIN3030]

Saint welcome to the site-have moved your thread here.

[Guest Happy Contrails]

HI to everyone, I'm new here. Apologies for zooming in on a particular thread without formal introduction.

 

Your site/forum has been very informative and much help. I just have a particular question.

 

Bailiffs are now on me for a sum of £668.00. This was from a court summons issued in .... 1998, and 2000. A property I lived in 9 years ago with two other tenants. I received notification that a court summons had not been paid on a property occupied a very long time ago.

 

If the council applied for a liability order for a debt more than six years old then it is in contrary to Section 2 of the Limitation Act 1980. A Liability Order has no end date on it so there is no time limit.

 

If this comes out all babbling and wotnot, it's only because it's absolutely confounding me how this can be gotten away with.

 

I called the Borough and stated:

A. This was for a property I lived in 9 years ago. How am I supposed to prove I never paid this sum.

 

You can make an affidavit saying you paid the sum and send it to the council.

 

B. If you found me, why can you not find the other names listed as 'liable'. One person listed I know for a fact lives in the same exact borough. But they can't find her. I can. I went to her house last week. We had coffee. Same address she's had all her life in that same borough.

 

Its up to the council to chase the principle or joint occupiers. Councils dont want to chase multiple tenants.

 

C. I never received any notification the account was in arrears.

 

Earlier in your post you said ' I received notification that a court summons had not been paid ' You need to have your facts right. If you did not receive a Final Notice then the council has failed to comply with Regulation 34 of the The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992. You can ask the council to cease enforcement otherwise you will file a complaint to the LGO and have the liability Order revoked because delivery is not compliant with Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 and you will claim compensation.

 

And I always did re-direction of mail, and filled out that stupid form the council gives you to say what your previous address was. I never received one single notification that the summons had never been paid. And funnily enough, even with the other names attributed to this account, I was in full contact with the Council sorting out and clearing the account.

 

My question is:

How long is a court summons valid?

 

No limit

 

The first one issued was in 1998. I had already moved out of the property by late 1999. Can't find other tenant liable - lost contact with him years ago.

 

They are just as liable as you.

 

The second one issued was for Feb 2000 through Aug 2000. I was nowhere near that address,

 

If you were not resident at the charge address then you are not liable. Write to the council a simple letter giving dates you were living at the charge address and they should amend the arrears.

 

and wasn't even dating the girl anymore that's listed as liable with me! But the Council knew where I was living because I stayed in that borough for 8 years. Always filling out the necessary forms, re-directions blah blah. I still have good relations with previous landlords! Not once did they say something had come through the door looking like a summons on THEIR property.

 

Council tax is based on occupancy, not on property ownership. I think you are confusing yourself with how local taxation works in the EU. Its based on % of the value of the property and the owner is liable for it regardless who is living in it.

 

These summons are almost a decade old. And one is questionable whether I'm liable to pay for it issued when I wasn't even living at that address.

 

See above. A simple letter to the council will suffice.

 

And also --- if the summons has the address correct, the account number correct, but has your name wrong, are you still accountable?

 

Yes, but you can try arguing with them using Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978, but thats more to do with correctly addressing a document for delivery rather than correct spelling of the recipients name.

 

As in, if the summons to appear in magistrates court says Person ******* must appear in court, but they have your name wrong (because no one gets my surname right. And it's very easy.) is that not kind of a loophole?

 

The loophole favours the court, and it can make minor amendments to the defendants name if there is a minor error in spelling.

 

If it's not my given name by birth, regardless of ties to the property or account, it's not my name. The person ordered into court is a complete mystery to me by error on their part. The Council were always informed how to correctly spell my surname. As are every other provider, and no one ever gets it right.

 

If its somebody elses name on the document then that person is responsible for answering it.

 

Any help would be appreciated while I ignore the bailiffs.

 

If a bailiff turns up and asks for a person with a different name than you then you just say that person is not known to you. You then ask the bailiff to quietly leave the property. The law only requires you to identify yourself to a police officer who is wearing the correct uniform and is on duty or shows you a valid warrant card. Just put on a deep voice and deny knowing who that person is and say - er sorry moyte! nobody 'ere by that noyim.

 

this is the answer from tomtubby bailiff expert

 

I'll leave it to tomtubby answer your questions on the bailiffs aspect of your post.

[MARTIN3030]

Very good info HC-it should at least give some pointers to consider.

[sequenci]

If the council applied for a liability order for a debt more than six years old then it is in contrary to Section 2 of the Limitation Act 1980.

 

I didn't know that was the case, really inteerst point that!

 

I was trained that the timescales fell under Reg 34(3) of the council tax (administration and enforcement) regs?

[Guest Happy Contrails]

Yes, you are right but Reg 34(3) still gives 6 years to apply for the Liability order. But there's no end-date on the LO document thus no legislated limit for enforcement once it has been granted. TT recently quoted a precedent setting 4 years but I cannot find it on BAILII.

 

Good to see you are on the ball!

[saintx]

Thank you everyone for responding so quickly and thoroughly. Absolutely such a great help to me with everything answered, and thank you very much HC for taking your time and going through my post addressing each babble. LOL

I really do appreciate it.

 

I'll next post a thread how GE/Capital Bank can accuse me of taking out a loan for £12,000 in 2005, paying it back for 2 years then just stopping, while Royal Bank of Scotland accused me of taking out a loan for £18,000, but paying it back in a 3 week period. Loans taken out in April 2005. While I was on holiday in America.

 

If you've ever dealt with EQUIFAX, you may know my pain. Especially when you stress "who takes out a loan for £18,000 and pays it back in 3 weeks???"

 

It's a hard knock life.

[sequenci]

Yes, you are right but Reg 34(3) still gives 6 years to apply for the Liability order. But there's no end-date on the LO document thus no legislated limit for enforcement once it has been granted. TT recently quoted a precedent setting 4 years but I cannot find it on BAILII.

 

 

Thameside MBC, Complaint Against [1999] R.V.R 283

 

?

 

I think this was a LGO complaint (LGO 98/C/4810)

[saintx]

I have one of the Council Tax Pre-Bailiff Warning notices. Borough has been omitted.

 

On 08-Feb-2001 at *****, a Liability Order was issued. Payment yadda yadda yadda.

 

Council Tax Liability from 01-Apr-2000 to 31 Aug-2000

Amount Outstanding £321.74

 

Wasn't living at that property anymore. Had moved out in the Autumn of 1999. The Council were fully aware of my move because, well, I'm not on the run am I? I stayed in the same borough! But I never ever received any issue of this second notice, and I did keep as much of the paperwork as I possibly could from that property. I actually keep most of what I can from any property I've lived in. Nor did I receive any notice of the first summons not being paid.

 

I have the original documentation of when it was first issued in 1998. The account was such a mess, and the tenant that shared liability we didn't part on great terms, so alot of the communications with the Council were done by me. I still have some of those as well, and the chequebooks from that time period. I'm not sure if the summons was paid, but it might have gotten missed in all the arithmetic. Regardless, at no single address I lived at after Autumn 1999 did i receive notification that this summons had never been paid. Not one. And as said, I lived in that same borough from 1997 to 2005. My financial situation at the time could've taken care of that summons with one paycheck.

 

Irregardless that I'm not the sole liable name on that summons. I would've taken care of it just to see it gone. Now is a different story. I'm not earning what I did then, I'm a parent, and I already have a whopping council tax bill on my plate as it is. And all I ever see them do is pick up rubbish. I know 'they' take care of more apparently, but I have really yet to see the money appropriated used effectively or doing something for the communities. Especially when it's winter and you're watching elderly people trying to walk up a road that's covered in ice, and there's not a single granule of rock salt put down by your council. It's different for me, I grew up on the east coast of America. I kind of know how to walk on ice, because you have to. It still didn't stop me, carrying my child to school, from almost falling face first on to the pavement.