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    • The Notice to Hirer does not comply with the protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule  4 . This is before I ask if Europarks have sent you a copy of the PCN they sent to Arval along with a copy of the hire agreement et. if they haven't done that either you are totally in the clear and have nothing to worry about and nothing to pay. The PCN they have sent you is supposed to be paid by you according to the Act within 21 days. The chucklebuts have stated 28 days which is the time that motorists have to pay. Such a basic and simple thing . The Act came out in 2012 and still they cannot get it right which is very good news for you. Sadly there is no point in telling them- they won't accept it because they lose their chance to make any money out of you. they are hoping that by writing to you demanding money plus sending in their  unregulated debt collectors and sixth rate solicitors that you might be so frightened as to pay them money so that you can sleep at night. Don't be surprised if some of their letters are done in coloured crayons-that's the sort of  level of people you will be dealing with. Makes great bedding for the rabbits though. Euro tend not to be that litigious but while you can safely ignore the debt collectors just keep an eye out for a possible Letter of Claim. They are pretty rare but musn't be ignored. Let us know so that you can send a suitably snotty letter to them showing that you are not afraid of them and are happy to go to Court as you like winning.  
    • They did reply to my defence stating it would fail and enclosed copies of NOA, DN Term letter and account statements. All copies of T&C's that could be reconstructions and the IP address on there resolves to the town where MBNA offices are, not my location
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    • My defence was standard no paperwork:   1.The Defendant contends that the particulars of claim are generic in nature. The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made. 2. Paragraph 1 is noted. The Defendant has had a contractual relationship with MBNA Limited in the past. The Defendant does not recognise the reference number provided by the claimant within its particulars and has sought verification from the claimant who is yet to comply with requests for further information. 3. Paragraph 2 is denied. The Defendant maintains that a default notice was never received. The Claimant is put to strict proof to that a default notice was issued by MBNA Limited and received by the Defendant. 4. Paragraph 3 is denied. The Defendant is unaware of any legal assignment or Notice of Assignment allegedly served from either the Claimant or MBNA Limited. 5. On the 02/01/2023 the Defendant requested information pertaining to this claim by way of a CCA 1974 Section 78 request. The claimant is yet to respond to this request. On the 19/05/2023 a CPR 31.14 request was sent to Kearns who is yet to respond. To date, 02/06/2023, no documentation has been received. The claimant remains in default of my section 78 request. 6. It is therefore denied with regards to the Defendant owing any monies to the Claimant, the Claimant has failed to provide any evidence of proof of assignment being sent/ agreement/ balance/ breach or termination requested by CPR 31.14, therefore the Claimant is put to strict proof to: (a) show how the Defendant entered into an agreement; and (b) show and evidence the nature of breach and service of a default notice pursuant to Section 87(1) CCA1974 (c) show how the claimant has reached the amount claimed for; and (d) show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim; 7. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed. 8. On the alternative, as the Claimant is an assignee of a debt, it is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the consumer credit Act 1974. 9. By reasons of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.
    • Monika the first four pages of the Private parking section have at least 12 of our members who have also been caught out on this scam site. That's around one quarter of all our current complaints. Usually we might expect two current complaints for the same park within 4 pages.  So you are in good company and have done well in appealing to McDonalds in an effort to resolve the matter without having  paid such a bunch of rogues. Most people blindly pay up. Met . Starbucks and McDonalds  are well aware of the situation and seem unwilling to make it easier for motorists to avoid getting caught. For instance, instead of photographing you, if they were honest and wanted you  to continue using their services again, they would have said "Excuse me but if you are going to go to Mc donalds from here, it will cost you £100." But no they kett quiet and are now pursuing you for probably a lot more than £100 now. They also know thst  they cannot charge anything over the amount stated on the car park signs. Their claims for £160 or £170 are unlawful yet so many pay that to avoid going to Court. When the truth is that Met are unlikely to take them to Court since they know they will lose. The PCNs are issued on airport land which is covered by Byelaws so only the driver can be pursued, not the keeper. But they keep writing to you as they do not know who was driving unless you gave it away when you appealed. Even if they know you were driving they should still lose in Court for several reasons. The reason we ask you to fill out our questionnaire is to help you if MET do decide to take you to Court in the end. Each member who visited the park may well have different experiences while there which can help when filling out a Witness statement [we will help you with that if it comes to it.] if you have thrown away the original PCN  and other paperwork you obviously haven't got a jerbil or a guinea pig as their paper makes great litter boxes for them.🙂 You can send an SAR to them to get all the information Met have on you to date. Though if you have been to several sites already, you may have done that by now. In the meantime, you will be being bombarded by illiterate debt collectors and sixth rate solicitors all threatening you with ever increasing amounts as well as being hung drawn and quartered. Their letters can all be safely ignored. On the odd chance that you may get a Letter of Claim from them just come back to us and we will get you to send a snotty letter back to them so that they know you are not happy, don't care a fig for their threats and will see them off in Court if they finally have the guts to carry on. If you do have the original PCN could you please post it up, carefully removing your name. address and car registration number but including dates and times. If not just click on the SAR to take you to the form to send to Met.
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Halifax are saying enforceable Agreement with no signature


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Hi All

 

Please can you help. I am currently with a debt managment company and this has helped alot. I have been with them for a year in September. I came across this web site iand t has inofrmed me that some agreements are not actually enforceable. I would like someone to look over my letter that I received recenlty and the paperwork to see what steps I need to take to sort this accoutn out as it is not enforceable. As you can see there is no copy of my actual agreement and I would like a suitable letter to respond back to them to sort out whether they are correct or whether I have leverage to challenge them. I so want to be able to sort this out as I woudl really like to donate to this orgianisation as it has really given me the strength to deal with these companies.

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So I am going to write out the letter Halifax write to me to say:

 

I write in resposne to your request for your consumer credit agreement under section 78 of the consumer credit act 1974 (CCA)

I have enclosed with this letter a copy of your executed agreement, a copy of your current terms and conditions and a signed statement of your account.

The copy of the agreement enclosed with this letter comlies with the requirements of the consumer credit (cancellation Notices and Copies Documents) Regulations 1983 (the "regulations")Regulation 3(2) (b) provides that a copy can omit any signature box, signature or date of signature. In summary we are not required to produce a copy with your clients signature on it. By providing a copy of the agreement complying with the requirements of the Regulations the agreement remains enforceable.

By providing you with the documents attached to this letter, we have satisfied our obligation to provide a copy of the executed agreement under section 78. As such, the agreement you have with us is fully enforceable and we shall continue to trreat it as such. We will not be entering into any further correspondance with you regarding the requirements relating to the provision of copy agreements. If you are using the services of a claims management company we would like to remind you of the recent warnings issued by the the Ministry of Justice and Citizens Advice Bereau. You can find more details both at

http://www.justuce.gov.uk/newsrelease170209a.htmand

http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/press 20090217

The Ministry of Justice headline reads "Business that miselad the public by claiming they can arrange for unpaid loans, credit cards debts otr other consumer debts to be written off have been told to stop or face action Justice Minister Bridget Prentice said today, as new guidance was issued by the Ministry of Justice.

Finally, we must remind you that failure to make payments under the agreement will result in collection activities and any default may also bwe reported to credit reference agencies.

 

I am confused at what response I should now give them.

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So I am going to write out the letter Halifax write to me to say:

 

I write in resposne to your request for your consumer credit agreement under section 78 of the consumer credit act 1974 (CCA)

 

I have enclosed with this letter a copy of your executed agreement, a copy of your current terms and conditions and a signed statement of your account.

 

The copy of the agreement enclosed with this letter comlies with the requirements of the consumer credit (cancellation Notices and Copies Documents) Regulations 1983 (the "regulations")Regulation 3(2) (b) provides that a copy can omit any signature box, signature or date of signature. In summary we are not required to produce a copy with your clients signature on it. By providing a copy of the agreement complying with the requirements of the Regulations the agreement remains enforceable.

 

By providing you with the documents attached to this letter, we have satisfied our obligation to provide a copy of the executed agreement under section 78. As such, the agreement you have with us is fully enforceable and we shall continue to trreat it as such. We will not be entering into any further correspondance with you regarding the requirements relating to the provision of copy agreements. If you are using the services of a claims management company we would like to remind you of the recent warnings issued by the the Ministry of Justice and Citizens Advice Bereau. You can find more details both at

 

http://www.justuce.gov.uk/newsrelease170209a.htmand

http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/press 20090217

 

The Ministry of Justice headline reads "Business that miselad the public by claiming they can arrange for unpaid loans, credit cards debts otr other consumer debts to be written off have been told to stop or face action Justice Minister Bridget Prentice said today, as new guidance was issued by the Ministry of Justice.

 

Finally, we must remind you that failure to make payments under the agreement will result in collection activities and any default may also bwe reported to credit reference agencies.

 

I am confused at what response I should now give them.

 

Hiya.

 

I'm assuming that Halifax havn't actually threatened court action yet ? I'm also assuming that you have made a proper CCA request ?

 

I wouldnt worry about their response, it's similar to that of many other card companies who suddenly find that they have no enforceable agreement (Capital one especially), what they are saying is technically true, the agreement they send you under a CCA 1974 request can omit the signature BUT if they were to contemplate court action against you then they would need the original signed agreement.

 

Have you SAR'd or CPR'd them ?. That would be the next step, when you have had responses from them then they may be the time to send them the standard 'in dispute' letters (various versions available from here) and stop your payments to them.

 

Andy

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They have not threatened court action. I have had an agreement with them via payplan since September. I was interested to see if I had an enforceable agreement with them. I am happy to do a SARN. My intentions are to see if they do not have an enforceable agreement then I was going to settle my account with an amopunt of say £1K. I will be getting a pension fund of £3K as my scheme is winding up and was going to offer them that amount as a settlement. I just want to get on with my life without any debt. I have another query with regards to Alliance & Leicester but not sure if I should post this on here or do another thread.

 

I sent this letter, and receive the response that I posted earlier:

 

This letter is a formal request pursuant to s.77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I require you to provide me with a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the above account, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide.

 

I expect you to comply fully and properly with this request, within the statutory time limit. You are reminded that should you fail to comply with my request, the provisions of s.77 will apply.

 

If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.

 

Your attention is drawn to ss.5(2), 3(b),6 and 7 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR).

 

I enclose a postal order in the sum of £1.00, which is the statutory fee. Note that these funds are not to be used for any other purpose.

 

If you are unable to comply fully and properly with this request, you should confirm this in writing at the earliest opportunity, and certainly within the statutory time limit for compliance, and return the fee.

 

We look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

I am interested in what the next letter should be to them would this be suitable but write tot he complaints deaprment as I have noticed someone having similar issues

Account Number: XXX

 

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending your companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

 

Yours faithfully

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I also started an agreement with pay plan @ HBOS suggestion, but they didn't stop the interest charges (25%) so I stopped pay plan.

 

Did they stop interest charges for you?

 

I also wrote to them and got the same letter back; but my agreement was July 2007 and I'm not sure I'm covered under the not enforceable due to the amendment to section 127

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Hi Andy

Do you have any suggestions for my next letter. Do I send a SARN off. I also got a smilar letter from Barclaycard yesterday too. Wondered hat the next best step is to take.

 

thanks

 

Welkl..The general process would be..

 

1) Request CCA

 

They may send an agreement which complies with CCA regs (i.e no signature, etc) BUT isn't 'enforceable'

 

2) Make SAR request

 

This should be 'everything', if its like my Cap1 account, this unearthed another signed agreement but again unenforceable.

 

3) If they dont respond to the SAR request then you could use the CPR route to force them to respnd although from here it would get tricky.

 

Steps 2 and 3 are kind of just extra checks after 1 to see what other agreements they actually hold.

 

You mention settling your account . How ?. By paying the full amount ? Im afraid its unlikely they will accept less even if you scream ansd shout n claim they dont have an enforceable agreement.

 

Andy

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Hi Guys

thanks for responding.

 

Andy, I can't afford the SARN If they cannot produce the paperwork does that mean then it is not enforcable and I can stop paying Payplan? I dont understnad when you say it gets tricky. I am going to send the letter which goes into detail about how it is an offence to register my details with a credit reference agecny if they do not have my signed consent????

 

I am getting a pension lump sum payment of £3K and was going to offer all my creditors £1K each for full and fianl settlement???? Good idea or not really.

 

Ian,

They did stop my interest with Payplan and they were quite helpful but now they dont have a copy of my credit agreement they should not be publishing my ifnroamtion with credit reference agencies.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Welkl..The general process would be..

 

1) Request CCA

 

They may send an agreement which complies with CCA regs (i.e no signature, etc) BUT isn't 'enforceable'

 

2) Make SAR request

 

This should be 'everything', if its like my Cap1 account, this unearthed another signed agreement but again unenforceable.

 

3) If they dont respond to the SAR request then you could use the CPR route to force them to respnd although from here it would get tricky.

 

Steps 2 and 3 are kind of just extra checks after 1 to see what other agreements they actually hold.

 

You mention settling your account . How ?. By paying the full amount ? Im afraid its unlikely they will accept less even if you scream ansd shout n claim they dont have an enforceable agreement.

 

Andy

 

Um, I'm a bit confused.

 

There is no CPR route - as the Civil Procedure Rules does not allow you to demand any information from the creditors. You can ask a judge to order them to supply it, but then you end up paying all the costs.

 

Also, using the Consumer Credit Act 1974, to get sight of this document is probably the weakest approach of all, as it distinctly says that they do not have to supply you with a copy of anything that contains a 'signature box'.

 

A Subject Access Request costs £10, and again, is not a formal demand for them to supply this document. And asking politely aint going to work.

 

Is there a clear and legal way to actually get to see this document, or am I just sailing up the creek without a paddle?

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Um, I'm a bit confused.

 

There is no CPR route - as the Civil Procedure Rules does not allow you to demand any information from the creditors. You can ask a judge to order them to supply it, but then you end up paying all the costs.

 

Also, using the Consumer Credit Act 1974, to get sight of this document is probably the weakest approach of all, as it distinctly says that they do not have to supply you with a copy of anything that contains a 'signature box'.

 

A Subject Access Request costs £10, and again, is not a formal demand for them to supply this document. And asking politely aint going to work.

 

Is there a clear and legal way to actually get to see this document, or am I just sailing up the creek without a paddle?

 

Others have used the CPR route and indeed gone to court to get sight of (or not as the case may be) the actual document, that is i believe the only 100% sure fire way of forcing them to hand it over...Im no expert on this but if you browse this site youll find more knowledgable people who have gone down this route.

 

A SAR request SHOULD provide you with it too, because it is supposed to include everything, companies vary what they send you though, ive had a few scraps of paper from some and a huge package from Egg that seems to contain everything ever !

 

Although the question may be..why are you so desperate to see this document ?. If you believe it doesnt exist (or is not enforceable) then you can just stop paying and wait to see if they start court action (unlikely if the document is lost or unenforceable).

 

Andy

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Others have used the CPR route and indeed gone to court to get sight of (or not as the case may be) the actual document, that is i believe the only 100% sure fire way of forcing them to hand it over...Im no expert on this but if you browse this site youll find more knowledgable people who have gone down this route.

 

A SAR request SHOULD provide you with it too, because it is supposed to include everything, companies vary what they send you though, ive had a few scraps of paper from some and a huge package from Egg that seems to contain everything ever !

 

Although the question may be..why are you so desperate to see this document ?. If you believe it doesnt exist (or is not enforceable) then you can just stop paying and wait to see if they start court action (unlikely if the document is lost or unenforceable).

 

Andy

 

I'm not trying to poach the thread here, so I'll just quickly answer the question:

 

I need the copy of the signed agreement because it is vital for my case against the Credit Reference Agencies to remove my credit file entries. If they have it - I carry on paying (if it's a goodun), if they don't - then why don't they just tell me and not lead me on a merry dance! If anyone has a link to a thread to for a successful court action for site of an agreement, I'd appreciate it. Cheers also, Andy.

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I was glad to a discussion going on. I sent a letter to the data Controller and the complaints department to say that i do not have a signed agreement. But they have sent me exactly the same paperwork. I am very scared about stopping payment to them as it will be so difficult to remiove a default if they apply it. I am not in a position to pay the £10 but I have no option. I have also advised payplan that the money is to be placed on hold until they have produced this agreement. If they can't produce it then they are not able to divulge this information on my cerdit file buit I know they will. They seem to win all the time. Dotn know what to do as this is not enforcable.

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I was glad to a discussion going on. I sent a letter to the data Controller and the complaints department to say that i do not have a signed agreement. But they have sent me exactly the same paperwork. I am very scared about stopping payment to them as it will be so difficult to remiove a default if they apply it. I am not in a position to pay the £10 but I have no option. I have also advised payplan that the money is to be placed on hold until they have produced this agreement. If they can't produce it then they are not able to divulge this information on my cerdit file buit I know they will. They seem to win all the time. Dotn know what to do as this is not enforcable.

 

Aha..yep youve hit the nail on the head !..Without an enforceable agreement you can stop paying and without one they are very unlikely they will start court action BUT (theres always a 'but') although in theory they shouldnt take further action it is possible the debt will be passed to DCA's and defaults added to your credit file, there are a few cases on here of CAGers who have then had the defaults removed but its a battle !

 

Andy

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so I dont really have much option as I dont want to be going down the route of it bneing refrred to a DCa and then a defalut put on file becuase I am not paying. Then have to fight the default to get removed. It has taken 7 months to get a default removed with Alliance & Leicester. Maybe what I will do is get all info on my file, work out how much I have paid, how many charges need to be refunded and then how much I have spent and then offer full and final settlement on the basis that they do not have a CCA and therefore work out the difference of waht I owe them and then debt gone hopefully.

 

I thought that it would be a process that would be failry easty to do but I cant go through having defaults and then being removed. Can I argue to them that as they cannot find my signed authority to dsiclose information to the credit reference agencies that they are to take this off of my file and I continue to pay them? I am at a real loss.

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so I dont really have much option as I dont want to be going down the route of it bneing refrred to a DCa and then a defalut put on file becuase I am not paying. Then have to fight the default to get removed. It has taken 7 months to get a default removed with Alliance & Leicester. Maybe what I will do is get all info on my file, work out how much I have paid, how many charges need to be refunded and then how much I have spent and then offer full and final settlement on the basis that they do not have a CCA and therefore work out the difference of waht I owe them and then debt gone hopefully.

 

I thought that it would be a process that would be failry easty to do but I cant go through having defaults and then being removed. Can I argue to them that as they cannot find my signed authority to dsiclose information to the credit reference agencies that they are to take this off of my file and I continue to pay them? I am at a real loss.

 

 

It depends on your circumstances, if you can stop paying a card company on which you 'owe' a large amount AND your credit rating is already a mess then it may be worth doing, if its a small amount and/or you are just about to apply for a mortgagre for example things may be very different !

 

Andy

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  • 2 weeks later...
I'm not trying to poach the thread here, so I'll just quickly answer the question:

 

I need the copy of the signed agreement because it is vital for my case against the Credit Reference Agencies to remove my credit file entries. If they have it - I carry on paying (if it's a goodun), if they don't - then why don't they just tell me and not lead me on a merry dance! If anyone has a link to a thread to for a successful court action for site of an agreement, I'd appreciate it. Cheers also, Andy.

 

Hi Iddles, try this thread for CPR Stratergy, I'm at the CPR letter 2 stage and waiting for replies.

 

Regards

Mrs_P

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