Blue Otter v COOP/Gothia

[blueotter]

Following on from my battle with amex and RMA i now have similar problems with the co-op and gothia.

 

I found i couldn't continue to make the full monthly payments to the co-operative bank credit card and wrote to them mid march with an income/expenditure form asking if they'd take lower payments. Naturally they weren't interested and seem to have got themselves in a muddle regarding due process.

 

As you can see on the 6th april they wrote saying thank you for my offer and on the 8th april they wrote saying that due to my failure to propose a payment plan they would be referring me to a debt recovery agent called Phoenix Credit. Well it's not gone to Phoenix credit they've sent it to Gothia instead.

 

I wrote to them mid may 09 in refernce to what they've done and i've received no reply. I haven't received any default notices whatsoever but as always they can claim to have sent what they like .

 

Gothia and legal resolution are now hounding me to the brink of exhaustion.

 

Can anybody please advise what i should do next .

 

Attachment 1 :-Letter from co-op demanding Payment

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Attachment 2:- Letter from co-op thanking me for payment proposal

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=28txhz4&s=5

 

Attachment 3:- Letter from co-op asking where is payment

proposal and threat to pass to debt collecting agency

coop3 Pictures, coop3 Images, coop3 Photos, coop3 Videos - Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

 

Attachment 4:- Letter from Gothia demanding payment

coop4 Pictures, coop4 Images, coop4 Photos, coop4 Videos - Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

 

Attachment 5:- Letter from Gothia giving notice of home visit

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Attachment 6:- Letter from Resolution Legal Services informing of court action

coop6 Pictures, coop6 Images, coop6 Photos, coop6 Videos - Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

[42man]

The usual thumbscrew pressure...have you sent them a CCA request as yet ? Have you considered sending off a SAR ?

[blueotter]

Thanks for replying.

No i've not sent anything like that,until i visited this forum i wasn't aware of how to set it out legally.

 

Should i send a cca request,if so,who to ? co-op or gothia ?

Same for the sar,who gets it and should i send them together or separately ?

 

ty

[42man]

Send the CCA request to whoever owns the debt now....do you know if Gothia are collecting 'on behalf of' ? If the debt hasn't been assigned then it may be that Co-Op still own the debt...

 

SAR goes to the original creditor....

 

Number 8 here for the CCA and number 11 for the SAR - The Consumer Forums - Debt collectors

 

Enclose a £1 postal order for the CCA and £10 postal order for the SAR - and send both recorded/guaranteed delivery...

[blueotter]

Thank you,as you can see from the letters the co-op hadn't even defaulted my account and just passed it straight to gothia.

I'm just appalled by them and as for thanking me for a payment proposal on the 6th april and 2 days later asking me where my proposal is !!

I can't even go there as i'm seething so much.

 

So i'll send the cca request to gothia and the sar to the co-op then ?

Exactly what does a sar mean to me please ?

 

If anybody else has had any dealingS with this shower i'd be glad for a pointer to a thread or advice.

 

 

ty

[42man]

Just thinking it might be worth holding off on the SAR....it may be that they haven't terminated your account as yet (have you received any termination notice ?)....send the CCA first....

[blueotter]

No i ahevn't received anything like that,the last i had from the co-op was attachment 3 threatening me with dca action and the next letter i had was from the dca (gothia).

 

So as i understand it i should ask the dca for a copy of the credit agreement then despite the co-op failing to issue any default or termination notices ?

[42man]

I would send the agreement request directly to Co-Op as it seems Gothia are collecting 'on behalf of'.....

[blueotter]

Ok thank you i'll get the cca in the post and keep the thread updated.

 

Coincidentally if you have any advice for my other "battle" with amex/rma i'd be grateful,maybe i should send a cca to one of those as well

[blueotter]

Hi,

I started another thread for assistance but as I’ve now found out how to get this back I’ll keep it all to this one .

 

Co-op replied to my cca request and have sent the attached documents consisting of my original app form from 1997 together with a copy of their generic terms and conditions.

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coop3 Pictures, coop3 Images, coop3 Photos, coop3 Videos - Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

coop4 Pictures, coop4 Images, coop4 Photos, coop4 Videos - Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

Can anybody please advise me on my next course of action please and whether or not an application form is the same as a cca,it does mention cca stuff in the signature box.

 

This is further complicated or maybe not ! by the fact that the application form is dated 09/97 and was turned down by the coop so I sent in a further letter dated 10/97 with additional information.

coop5 Pictures, coop5 Images, coop5 Photos, coop5 Videos - Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

 

 

I’ve also noticed that the account nos on the app form are different from the account no I have now but maybe that’s just irrelevant as the card was replaced ,its so long ago I don’t really remember..

Found it surprising that they have any documents at all bearing in mind its so long ago.

 

All help is much appreciated as I have a dca now chasing me and I don’t know where I stand with it all form a legal viewpoint.

[clemma]

It's too small to read in parts. However, I can't make out any of the prescribed terms on the application form. Send them this if you want:

 

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

RE: Agreement/Account number

 

Thank you for your response to my letter dated xxxxxx 2009, making a formal request for a true copy of the original credit agreement for the above account under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77-79).

 

The documents you supplied me appear to be no more than an application form, and as such are not a satisfactory response to my request. Nowhere on the front of the document is there any reference to the prescribed terms and conditions that such an agreement must contain. I must assume that these are unconnected documents and once again inadequate to satisfy your obligations.

 

As you are aware you are obliged to provide me with a true copy of my agreement as defined under Section 189 of the CCA 1974. and I consider that you have failed to comply with my request for these documents

 

 

Under the terms of the above Act, a creditor has 12 working days to provide the requested documents. This deadline has now passed and I have not received the requested documents from you.

 

As I am sure you are aware, an agreement that does not contain all of the prescribed terms, and/or is not signed by the debtor, is completely unenforceable & I therefore consider that this account is in dispute with immediate effect & it follows that all payments to this account are suspended forthwith.

 

I draw your attention to the legal requirement that a creditor is not permitted to take any action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and therefore the following applies:

You must not demand any payment on this account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

You must not add any further interest or charges to this account.

You must not pass this account to any third party.

You must not register any information in respect of this account with any of the credit reference agencies.

You must not issue a default notice on this account

I hereby give you notice that if you proceed with any of the above actions, I will file reports with the appropriate authorities, including, but not limited to, Trading Standards, Office of Fair Trading, Information Commissioners Office, Financial Ombudsman Service.

 

Yours faithfully

[cerberusalert]

A liitle tip for you clemma, if you hold the 'Ctrl' button down on your keyboard and use your scroll button on your mouse it'll magnify the screen.

[clemma]

Cheers cerber - learn something everyday!! :D

 

I would still say unenforceable then

[blueotter]

Hi,many thanks ,I've rescanned them to hopefully make it easier to read.

 

coop1 Pictures, coop1 Images, coop1 Photos, coop1 Videos - Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hostingcoop2 Pictures, coop2 Images, coop2 Photos, coop2 Videos - Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

It does say on the app form a line that states

 

"I HAVE READ THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS (ON THE REVERSE AND THE CUSTOMER COPY) AND I AGREE TO BE BOUND THEREBY

 

But i don't quite know where i stand with all this as its an application form,should i still send in the suggested reply ?

[vint1954]

Hi,many thanks ,I've rescanned them to hopefully make it easier to read.

 

coop1 Pictures, coop1 Images, coop1 Photos, coop1 Videos - Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hostingcoop2 Pictures, coop2 Images, coop2 Photos, coop2 Videos - Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

It does say on the app form a line that states

 

"I HAVE READ THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS (ON THE REVERSE AND THE CUSTOMER COPY) AND I AGREE TO BE BOUND THEREBY

 

But i don't quite know where i stand with all this as its an application form,should i still send in the suggested reply ?

 

I would send Clemma's letter as first step.

 

You can also add lots of bits from the 1974 CCA act, but it only confuses them and they ignore it.

 

The only thing that I would add at the top of the letter would be: ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE, just above Ref:

[vint1954]

Hi,many thanks ,I've rescanned them to hopefully make it easier to read.

 

coop1 Pictures, coop1 Images, coop1 Photos, coop1 Videos - Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hostingcoop2 Pictures, coop2 Images, coop2 Photos, coop2 Videos - Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

It does say on the app form a line that states

 

"I HAVE READ THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS (ON THE REVERSE AND THE CUSTOMER COPY) AND I AGREE TO BE BOUND THEREBY

 

But i don't quite know where i stand with all this as its an application form,should i still send in the suggested reply ?

 

The terms and conditions need to be within the same document that you have signed. It would need a Court to enforce them.

[blueotter]

Ok thank you.

I’ll send that letter in and see what happens,call me pedantic as well but the original application was refused and I don’t recall receiving any other documentation,yes there’s a letter from me after it was refused but there’s nothing from the co-op.

Do you think i should continue to make token payments without commitment whilst the account is in dispute ?

[vint1954]

Ok thank you.

I’ll send that letter in and see what happens,call me pedantic as well but the original application was refused and I don’t recall receiving any other documentation,yes there’s a letter from me after it was refused but there’s nothing from the co-op.

Do you think i should continue to make token payments without commitment whilst the account is in dispute ?

 

You colud also confuse them a bit by putting in the fact that the document that they have supplied, apart from being an application, was refused and could you have the propper one please.

[blueotter]

Thanks for the advice people,I shall send the letter as advised by clemma and also add a line in about the application dated 9/97 being refused.

It predates a letter from me asking them to reconsider the decision and to the best of my knowledge I don’t recall signing anything other than the application form.

Anybody think I should still make a token payment to them though ?

[vint1954]

Thanks for the advice people,I shall send the letter as advised by clemma and also add a line in about the application dated 9/97 being refused.

It predates a letter from me asking them to reconsider the decision and to the best of my knowledge I don’t recall signing anything other than the application form.

 

Anybody think I should still make a token payment to them though ?

 

You may want to make a small payment, £2-£5 per month until you have a reply to Clemmas letter. Then review again when sending dispute letter.

[blueotter]

Thank you ,i'll take your advice and see what happens.

[vint1954]

Thank you ,i'll take your advice and see what happens.

Keep us posted

[blueotter]

Well i've heard nothing since sending my reply back in bar a letter from them saying that they were going to investigate my complaint that i made back in may.

No calls from gothia,co-op,no doorstep threats,nothing at all.Perhaps they're preparing something i odn't know or perhaps they're content to accept my token payments.

 

I'll continue to update as i'm conscious that the more info the better for other people who are in similar circumstances.

[blueotter]

Well i have a reply to my letter a month ago which put the account into dispute.Basically they're of the opinion that what they supplied was adequate,no surprises there.

To my mind and the advice i received on here its not adequate and doesn't conform to a true copy of a cca so what's the next step please people ?

Do i re-iterate the point and send the letter back to them,advice as always,very welcome.

Here's the reply http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=110dow9&s=3

[vint1954]

Well i have a reply to my letter a month ago which put the account into dispute.Basically they're of the opinion that what they supplied was adequate,no surprises there.

To my mind and the advice i received on here its not adequate and doesn't conform to a true copy of a cca so what's the next step please people ?

Do i re-iterate the point and send the letter back to them,advice as always,very welcome.

Here's the reply http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=110dow9&s=3

Usual fob off response.

 

Have a read of the letter below, edit and send when you are comfortable with it.

 

Vint

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Account Number: XXX

 

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending a copy of your companies current Terms & conditions and a copy of an application form that was refused. I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

I would also inform you, that I have not received a copy of any agreement from the Co-Op, at the time you allege the agreement was made. In addition, the document that you allege to be an agreement, is in fact an application form and is Pre-Contractual. I again remind you that this application was refused by yourselves.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions or an application form, is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a "true copy" of the agreement.

In relation to what constitutes a “true copy”, please read the details below. In a recent letter from the enforcement department of the OFT, the text below was quoted, explaining what is required.

 

“The copy of the executed agreement need not be an exact copy but it must be a ‘true copy’ and not some reconstruction of what the original might have been and it must contain the same terms as the original. Where the terms have been varied as provided for within the agreement, the copy of the original agreement must be accompanied by a document setting out the current terms, as varied. Certain details may be omitted from the original agreement eg the signature but the debtor must be in no doubt as to the true nature of his obligations under the loan.

 

Should no original agreement be in existence it is very hard to say that the copy the creditor offers to the debtor is, in fact, a true copy as there would be no original with which to compare it. In our view the onus of proof would be on the creditor to show that the copy is a true one and where none existed he may have difficulty discharging this. Neither should creditors suggest that a consumer has signed a credit agreement where they are unable to provide evidence to support this — to do so is likely to be a misleading action under Regulation 5 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (the CPRs) and would also constitute an unfair or improper business practice.”

 

This breach of the agreement by yourselves, can be demonstrated as follows:

 

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, "the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form." This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable. I await a “True copy” of my agreement and would remind you again that, whilst the request has not been complied with, the default continues.

Below are the relevant main points of the Law and OFT regulations while the account is in dispute and Barclaycard remain in default.

• You may not ask for payment against this account.
  
• I am not obliged to offer any payment against this account.
  
• You may not add further interest or any charges to the account
  
• You cannot register any data with a third party.
  
• You cannot take any enforcement action, including registering Defaults.
  
• You cannot pass the account on to a third party for collection.
  
• You cannot sell the account.
  

I am now granting to you a further 7 days to produce a true copy of any executable agreement. After that I will consider that the above matter is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt. If you are insisting that the non enforceable Application form with added Terms and Conditions that you have supplied, is the only alleged agreement in your possession, then I would suggest that the best course of action would be to immediately set the balance of the above account number to zero.

 

 

Yours faithfully