Regulated Car Finance amended?

[ihatework]

Hi, I've got a regulated car finance agreement that I've now discovered has had the clause removed that means I can retunr it afetr I've paid half. Can they legally do this as it surely alters my rights? Thanks,

[sequenci]

Hi, I've got a regulated car finance agreement that I've now discovered has had the clause removed that means I can retunr it afetr I've paid half. Can they legally do this as it surely alters my rights? Thanks,

 

I'm not sure that they can.

 

Was the original agreement hire-purchase?

[ihatework]

No it simply says "Credit Agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974" at the top. It's car finance with a balloon payment at the end of the term. Don't know if this helps?

[sequenci]

No it simply says "Credit Agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974" at the top. It's car finance with a balloon payment at the end of the term. Don't know if this helps?

 

Is there anywhere within the agreement that says

 

'termination - your rights' ??

 

I have a gut feeling the vehicle may not be HP and just a fixed-sum loan agreement.

[JonCris]

Is it a 'personal' fixed loan agreement the car belonged to you from the day you bought it - however if they still have a lien on it via HPI then their agreement falls within the CCA as to do otherwise would be like having their cake & eating it

 

In other words they can't 'select' only the bits that favour them to your legal detriment

 

For example it's alleged that Black Horse for one are fond of these types of agreements & consequently have been successfully challenged regarding ownership of the vehicle - unfortunately as far as I'm aware it's also alleged that they have never let the argument get near a court room probably because they know they will lose;)

[ihatework]

They definitely have it on HPI, It actually states on the agreement that I don't have the right to cancel this agreement under the CCA or Timneshare act, it's with Capital Bank. My argument is that surely they can't just add & remove bits to an Act of Parliament jsut to suit themselves. I cannot see how this clause can benefit anybody but them? I know I shouldn't have signed it but I didn't notice it at the time, hindsight is a wonderful thing!

[heliosfa]

Is it a 'personal' fixed loan agreement the car belonged to you from the day you bought it - however if they still have a lien on it via HPI then their agreement falls within the CCA as to do otherwise would be like having their cake & eating it

 

Yes, Blackhorse have done this to my OH. So what you are saying is that if they put it on the HPI register, even if it is a personal loan, it is classed as a HP Agreement?

 

(sorry to the OP for the potential Hi-JAck)

 

H

[sequenci]

Yes, Blackhorse have done this to my OH. So what you are saying is that if they put it on the HPI register, even if it is a personal loan, it is classed as a HP Agreement?

 

(sorry to the OP for the potential Hi-JAck)

 

H

 

Nope

 

It is simply a loan, you would own the car and Black Horse should NOT be putting it on the HPI register.

[heliosfa]

No, that is no it.

 

It is simply a loan, you would own the car and Black Horse should NOT be putting it on the HIP register.

 

Yes, well, BH seem to treat loans like HP without the consumer protection. It seems like something similar has happened in the OPs case

 

For example,

 

• They removed the car on a "voluntary surrender"
  
• they had a HPI interest in the vehicle
  
• Their systems etc. refer to each payment as "rental"
  

Now, surely despite what the agreement states it is, e.g. a personal loan, the way it has been managed by the creditor has some bearing on the nature of the account?

 

H

[sequenci]

Yes, well, BH seem to treat loans like HP without the consumer protection. It seems like something similar has happened in the OPs case

 

For example,

 

• They removed the car on a "voluntary surrender"
  
• they had a HPI interest in the vehicle
  
• Their systems etc. refer to each payment as "rental"
  

Now, surely despite what the agreement states it is, e.g. a personal loan, the way it has been managed by the creditor has some bearing on the nature of the account?

 

H

 

And your agreement was a loan agreement? And they removed the vehicle?

[heliosfa]

Yup it was a personal loan and they lied to get my OH's "consent" for the "voluntary surrender", I have a thread running on it - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/200392-blackhorse-antics-court-action.html

 

but from day one, the creditor treated it like a HP agreement.

 

 

And it seems like several creditors have been doing this to avoid their duties under HP...

 

 

(again, sorry to the OP for a hi-jack, but there seem to be some similarities that could help )

 

H

[ihatework]

Surely it's irrelevant whether it's HP or personal loan? The important thing is that it's regulated?

[heliosfa]

Surely it's irrelevant whether it's HP or personal loan? The important thing is that it's regulated?

 

There is a difference,

 

e.g. the creditor owns the vehicle on a Hire Purchase agreement and is the consumer has paid over half, they can return the vehicle and have no furhter liability. The finance company can alos reposess the vehicle, but need a court order if over 1/3 has been paid.

 

With a fixed sum loan, the consumer owns the car from day one and the creditor has no claim to it and as such should not register an interest on the HPI register. The creditor cannot reclaim the vehicle as the loan is not secured on the vehicle and it is not a HP agreement, however, conversely, the consumer can't cancel the agreement after 50% has been paid.

 

Now, what several creditors have been doing is creating a fixed-sum loan agreement, so that they don't give the consumer termination rights, where they record an interest on the HPI register and don't allow you to sell the car, thus claiming some form of title, and then use miss-information by leading the consumer to beleive it is a HP agreement to retreive a vehicle.

 

H

[sequenci]

Surely it's irrelevant whether it's HP or personal loan? The important thing is that it's regulated?

 

er... There are HUGE differences between and loan agreements.

 

If a car is financed via a loan arrangement the purchaser owns the vehicle from the start.

 

If the car is financed via HP it is owned by the finance company until the final payment is made.

 

A finance company should not be repossessing a vehicle on a loan agreement.

[ihatework]

My query isn't over repo rights, it's whether they are able to remove the 'hand it back when half paid' rights. It is on a form of HP as it has balloon payment & car details are registered. If anybody needs a copy of agreement I can PM it if necessary. Thanks,

[heliosfa]

can you sanitise and post the scan up? then we can all comment

 

 

And this is sort of what the debate is about. on a loan agreement, you have no termination rights where as HP you do. Both agreement types are regulated by the CCA

 

BUT, companies have tried treating loans like HP to gain all their benifits.

 

remeber, not all car finance is HP...

 

H

Edited June 17, 2009 by heliosfa

[ihatework]

Not sure if this the correct way to do this as a bit dim on computers, let me know if it's wrong please! Important part is half way down 2nd page I think.

audi.pdf

audi (2).pdf

[sequenci]

1 it's whether they are able to remove the 'hand it back when half paid' rights.

 

On regulated HP agreements you can exercise this right under s99 of the consumer credit act 1974. You can return the vehicle at any point and limit your liabilities to 50% of the amount financed.

 

The cancellation right on your agreement is to do with cancelling if you change your mind at the start. You had no right to do so as I'm guessing you signed on their premises.

 

Your agreement is simply a loan agreement and not HP.

[heliosfa]

OK, my initial thoughts are:

 

The agreement is a fixed sum loan, NOT HP however, from the terms like mileage limits and the intimation that they still own the vehicle (3rd box in Key Information) it seems like they were treating it as HP.

 

Are/were you the registered keeper?

 

do you have the additional terms that are mentioned throughout?

 

 

H

[ihatework]

I do, it was signed on trade premises. It's actually my daughter's car & yes she is the registered keeper, but I always have been on cars on HP. When I sopke to them they said that I don't have the right to cancel unless I pay the full o/s balance, no rebate & no returning when paid half.

audi 3.pdf

[sequenci]

Just flicking through the t's and c's it seems pretty clear that it is a loan agreement.

[heliosfa]

mm, but there should be some rebate for interest if you settle early I think.

 

 

Do they definitely have an interest recorded on the HPI register?

 

H

[JonCris]

It's what used to be more commonly known as a personal cash loan & that being the case they should not have registered it on HPI as it belongs to the borrower from day 1. - They have no legally enforceable interest in the car - If the lender is claiming they do whilst the seller is claiming they don't then they cannot expect to escape the fact that the agreement becomes a regulated HP agreement with all that that implies - they cannot pick & choose which bits of the legislation they want to accept - it's all or nothing & if it's nothing the cars yours - Call their bluff write & demand that as they claim no interest & that their agreement is not a regulated HP agreement that they remove it from HPI. If they refuse remind them of this

 

Courts must assess unfair terms in consumer contracts, says ECJ

[JonCris]

Forgot to mention it may even be possible to dispute the whole of the agreement as unenforceable & demand that at the very least the interest paid be refunded