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Beachy's OH v GE Money/CL Finance


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Taking on GE Money/CL Finance on behalf of the OH.

 

Account sold to CL end of last year, Sent a cca request to CL March '09 which was totally ignored sent a reminder end of April again totally ignored, at the same time I sent SAR to GE Money and received just statements in return.

 

Replied to GE stating that they have not complied with OH's request, while waiting for that response OH tried to get the cca request from GE, this morning OH received a letter from GE stating that 'there is no longer any obligation for us to provide this information, as specified under 78. we return the fee of £1.

 

Any such request should be sent to CL Finance'.

 

Also received today was some notes which OH requested in the non compliance letter,

 

1. Default notices are system generated letters, which are sent automatically and we do not hold copies.

 

2. Penalty charges levied to the account are provided on the list of transactions & the copy statements you have previously received. The way in which we calculate our default charges is privy to the business only and we are not obliged to provide you with this information.

 

3. Deed of assignment will need to be requested from CL Finance.

 

Also enclosed was the following cca, original store card was replaced with a Debenhams Credit Card - is this enforcable?

 

scan0020.jpg

 

As CL Finance have twice ignored our cca requests whats the best step forward now - legally payments should cease until a proper cca is provided but reading aroud the forum CL seem trigger happy in taking court action.

 

There are charges and 'card protection' payments, who should OH chase regarding claiming these back, although, as I have read throughout the forum GE Money dont pay out very easy, so should we allow court action from CL and defeat them that way?

 

Beachy & OH.

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I chased CL finance and they started court proceeding against me, but realised that I had acted in a proper fashion and that they had screwed up

 

see this thread

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/178782-cl-finance-coward-howen.html

 

I claimed all charges and PPI back

 

hope it helps

PGH7447

 

 

Getting There Slowly

---------

 

Advice is given freely but is in no way meant to be taken as Gospel:-)

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I chased CL finance and they started court proceeding against me, but realised that I had acted in a proper fashion and that they had screwed up

 

see this thread

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/178782-cl-finance-coward-howen.html

 

I claimed all charges and PPI back

 

hope it helps

 

 

Hi PGH,

 

Thanks for your reply, did you reclaim all charges and PPI from CL or GE?, added all together + interest OH thinks the debt would be wiped out, currently on payment plan with them that they said they'd honour from GE, although we know that by stopping payments because of their cca default court action would start almost immediately.

 

Will have a full read of your thread later this evening.

 

Beachy

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They took the debt over from GE and I cca'd them and sar's GE, the agreement was an application form but did include all T&C'[s etc, so worked out what they had charged me over the years and the PPI which was not ticked on the form.

 

This equated to half the debt so wrote to CL offering a payment plan on the rest, they did not bother to reply but went straight for court, so I used the arguament that they had neglected a reasonable offer etc and they caved in, stopped the court action accepted the payment plan and wrote off the charges and ppi and some. they also removed the default from my credit file

PGH7447

 

 

Getting There Slowly

---------

 

Advice is given freely but is in no way meant to be taken as Gospel:-)

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Ran into financial problems last June and reached an agreement with GE Money (Debenhams Store Card) to pay a reduced monthly payment, this went on for a few months when I received a letter from CL Finance informing me that they have notice of assignment and to send all future payments to them and that they would honour the payment arrangement set up with GE, no default notice, notice of assignment or letter of termination from GE.

 

After joining CAG and taking on various creditors I cca'd CL back in March - totally ignored, sent reminder cca in April again totally ignored.

 

Subject Access Request GE Money (Debenhams store card), only sent (some) statements, total payments made regarding ppi (which wasnt asked for), and a statement that the 'application form' is no longer available due to date the account was opened.

 

Sent GE a non compliance Subject Access Request letter and requested full disclosure, also sent GE (seperately) a cca request, letter received this morning returning my £1 fee and stating that as no more monies are outstanding to GE there is no obligation to provide this information.

 

Also received this morning was their response to my non compliance complaint :-

 

1 Default Notices are system generated letters which are sent automatically and we do not hold copies.

 

2 The way in which we calculate our default charges is privy to the business only and we are not obliged to provide you with this information

 

3 Deed of assignment will need to be requested from CL Finance.

 

4 They enclosed a microfiche copy of the original application/agreement which is totally unreadable.

 

5 Requested a month by month breakdown of card protection payments in order that I could calculate the interest - the reply was 'As a finance company there is logic involved in the decisions we make, please be more specific as to what logic you are referring to.

 

There was also a note stating that CL had requested a copy of the agreement from GE but were advised that the application couldn't be supplied due to age of agreement - GE called CL to advise.

 

Final note was that, customer advised that default notices are system generated with no copies and there hasn't been no termination notice.

 

Understand GE arent very good regarding PPi/penalty charges, as everything has been sold to CL, should it be them I should be reclaiming from or GE?

 

Or should I tell CL to go forth as no proof of debt exists and charges + PPI + interests should outweigh the balance of the debt.

 

Debt is approx £3800, ppi & unlawful charges amount to approx £2500 WITHOUT compound interest or statutory 8% interest.

 

Just wonder what would be the best way forward with this one?

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Hi BC,

 

In a very similar situation to you, with similar results. My thread is here:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/196701-ge-assign-debt-cl.html

 

 

I have had responses with what they call enforceable agreements, but all 3 are applications and from my GE SAR, they have tacked on unrelated and modern T&C's.

 

Also had the system generated thing about DN's.

 

They owe me approx £2500 also from PPi before any interest, with compound this seriously adds up and more than clears all my accounts with them (plus change), so I am keen to move this on myself.

 

They also sold my debt on to CL whilst in reciept of my CCA request, we guessed as much but this was admitted in account logs in our SAR.

 

Still paying CL the £1 per month but very clearly stating the accounts are in dispute and its a token gesture made without prejudice.

 

Sorry if Ive not been much help, just appears we are at the same point looking for a very similar outcome!

 

meerkat x

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I'll have to sub to this, as I quoted a part of your thread beachcomber http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/204813-pay-oc-reduced-payments.html#post2231785

 

And as normal couldn't find it:cool:

 

See, to be honest and IMO, if you had already set up an agreement with GE Money to pay them a reduced amount each month, and you hadn't defaulted on those payments?

Then out of the blue they have sold it onto a 3rd party, CL Finance. I would dig my heels in, but I am notoriously stubborn:grin:

 

I'd send CL Finance the No Debt Acknowledged letter.

I know you do agree that you owe GE a debt, but as they have defaulted on the agreement both parties must have made and agreed too, CL can whistle.

It's not your concern that GE have defaulted on the agreement and sold your debt on, just to keep their books straight!

 

Have you checked your credit file? If that sort of thing bothers you? Just to see who has in fact 'possibly' marked your file?

 

I'd think about sending CL a request to halt the processing of your data letter too.

 

A formal complaint to the OFT about GE and their surreptitious collection activities: [email protected]

 

How to Complain are getting quite a good rep on here aswell!

 

It is just so one sided, both parties make an agreement, which you stick to, but just because they want to keep their books level, they sell off the bad debt without any acknowledgement to you.

 

If it were the other way round, or you were in one of those DMP's and moved the goalposts, they'd be up in arms:eek::eek:

 

I just don't get it:confused:

 

The fact that I never deal with DCA's only the OC is for this very reason, if an OC is foolish enough to sell the debt on to a DCA, then thats their lookout:grin::grin:

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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I'll have to sub to this, as I quoted a part of your thread beachcomber http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/204813-pay-oc-reduced-payments.html#post2231785

 

And as normal couldn't find it:cool:

 

See, to be honest and IMO, if you had already set up an agreement with GE Money to pay them a reduced amount each month, and you hadn't defaulted on those payments?

Then out of the blue they have sold it onto a 3rd party, CL Finance. I would dig my heels in, but I am notoriously stubborn:grin:

 

I'd send CL Finance the No Debt Acknowledged letter.

I know you do agree that you owe GE a debt, but as they have defaulted on the agreement both parties must have made and agreed too, CL can whistle.

It's not your concern that GE have defaulted on the agreement and sold your debt on, just to keep their books straight!

 

Have you checked your credit file? If that sort of thing bothers you? Just to see who has in fact 'possibly' marked your file?

 

I'd think about sending CL a request to halt the processing of your data letter too.

 

A formal complaint to the OFT about GE and their surreptitious collection activities: [email protected]

 

How to Complain are getting quite a good rep on here aswell!

 

It is just so one sided, both parties make an agreement, which you stick to, but just because they want to keep their books level, they sell off the bad debt without any acknowledgement to you.

 

If it were the other way round, or you were in one of those DMP's and moved the goalposts, they'd be up in arms:eek::eek:

 

I just don't get it:confused:

 

The fact that I never deal with DCA's only the OC is for this very reason, if an OC is foolish enough to sell the debt on to a DCA, then thats their lookout:grin::grin:

 

 

Thanks,

 

Just dont know what to do for the best now, having worked out the spreadsheet tonight, they owe me slightly more then I owe them!

 

GE seem to have washed their hands of the account so its a case of dealing with CL some how.

 

There is no agreement, GE have confirmed that much, CL have been cca'd twice with both being ignored.

 

I know if I exercise my rights and with hold payment as CL are in default of my cca a court order will be here within days.

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Hi BC,

 

In a very similar situation to you, with similar results. My thread is here:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/196701-ge-assign-debt-cl.html

 

 

I have had responses with what they call enforceable agreements, but all 3 are applications and from my GE SAR, they have tacked on unrelated and modern T&C's.

 

Also had the system generated thing about DN's.

 

They owe me approx £2500 also from PPi before any interest, with compound this seriously adds up and more than clears all my accounts with them (plus change), so I am keen to move this on myself.

 

They also sold my debt on to CL whilst in reciept of my CCA request, we guessed as much but this was admitted in account logs in our SAR.

 

Still paying CL the £1 per month but very clearly stating the accounts are in dispute and its a token gesture made without prejudice.

 

Sorry if Ive not been much help, just appears we are at the same point looking for a very similar outcome!

 

meerkat x

 

Morning Meerkat,

 

Thanks for sharing your similar problem, glad I'm not alone :) dealing with CL

 

Slightly different situation in that GE have confirmed that there is no longer a true copy of the original application/agreement. :-D

 

Just dont know the best way forward now?

 

Beachy

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OMG ! !

 

Just finished working out the ppi on this account - it cant be right?

 

Started off at just over £2300 but added compound interest at 29.9 APR + 8% statutory interest and it came out at approx £9,000 Account opened in '89 ppi stopped 2005.

 

If this is correct who do I send MY bill to GE or CL seeing they own the debt now.

 

Thanks

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Wow....

 

I never added the 8%, just the compound interest. But that sounds right given how far back your dates are starting (1989).

 

Its amazing, I can only hope they pay up on this money owed (or walk away, but Id rather have their money as I would be better off!).

 

Subbing here anyway, any advice you get beachy will benefit many others, myself included, and if I get any ill post up here!

 

meerkat x

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Wow....

 

I never added the 8%, just the compound interest. But that sounds right given how far back your dates are starting (1989).

 

Its amazing, I can only hope they pay up on this money owed (or walk away, but Id rather have their money as I would be better off!).

 

Subbing here anyway, any advice you get beachy will benefit many others, myself included, and if I get any ill post up here!

 

meerkat x

 

Hi Meerkat,

 

I was gobsmacked after working it all out, did it with the 8% added because stuck a claim in against barclayloan and the paid compound & 8%, but even if I left the 8% off the claim is still more then double the outstanding debt.

 

havent started the unlawful charges & over limit fees yet.

 

Just hope a knowledgeable one would drop by and let us now how get the claim GE or CL.

 

Will definately keep you posted - as you say, we're in it together! :lol:

 

Beachy

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Could someone please advise if the document posted#1 is enforceable, OH wants to take on CL as they have totally ignored cca requests (twice), the above document was supplied by GE as part of a full SAR. GE have stated that no monies are now owed to them, and that the cca & deed of assignment should be provided by CL Finance.

 

CL own the debt absolutely, so as there are charges and PPI added should OH pursue CL for reimbursment of these charges - with compound interest added charges & ppi outweigh the outstanding debt balance.

 

on behalf of OH

 

Thanks muchly ;)

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But its a blank form with non of your details on it so if this is what they are going to rely on incourt then I would hazard a guess that it is unenforceable

 

Saying that though it obviously is a new set of T&C's so is it pertinent to the one you alledgedly signed?

PGH7447

 

 

Getting There Slowly

---------

 

Advice is given freely but is in no way meant to be taken as Gospel:-)

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But its a blank form with non of your details on it so if this is what they are going to rely on incourt then I would hazard a guess that it is unenforceable

 

Saying that though it obviously is a new set of T&C's so is it pertinent to the one you alledgedly signed?

 

Thanks PGH,

 

They persueded OH to convert from a normal store card to credit card in 2006, they tried to get me to do it as well but said I did not qualify as I was self employed.

 

Would you know who is responsible regarding claiming back charges & insurance? CL have assignment absolute.

 

Ta

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  • 4 weeks later...

Just an update on this one, I am expecting poo to start flying around shortly.

 

Having sent a cca request to CL way back in March - this was totally ignored by CL.

 

In April I sent a cca reminder which was again totally ignored without any form of acknowledgement.

 

I have a taped telephone conversation with CL in which I asked why they had not replied to my CCA request in which the woman states that they are awaitin the OC to provide it to them, I stated that under OFT guidelines I am entitled to withold any further payments until such time as the CCA is produced, she replied that CL are fully aware that payments can be stopped until they comply, the problem is GE not CL.

 

I have stopped the payments to CL because a) they have not complied with my CCA request. b) GE have confirmed that the account is so old they do not have a copy of the original agreement, c) CL were advised of this by GE back in May and given advice on how to proceed (found this out as part of my SAR to GE), d) after pushing GE I managed to get a very very poor photocopy of a microfiche file of the 'agreement'.

 

I have filed a reclaim of ppi with GE/Santander of in excess of £9,500, to which they have acknowledged receipt and investigating my complaint with an answer within four weeks, should I have sent a copy of this to CL? - PPI is three times the outstanding balance.

 

Havent done anything about late/overlimit charges as they amount to less then £100 :(.

 

Fully expect a court claim within a week or so & just want to prepare myself - so if there is anything I should be doing in the meantime please advise me, for some reason CL will not communicate with me :mad:

 

Beachy

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I would be very interested if any CAGGER has a clearly readable Debenhams Store Card application form dating from 1989 - 1991 where the payment protection section is clearly readable.

 

The reason is that I have smacked a claim in for ppi against GE/Santander & they have responded with I signed the box for it, they cant supply a copy of the agreement as they have admitted (twice) that the orginal no longer exists.

 

I do have a very bad photocopy of a microfiche, the ppi section is virtually unreadable but I can just make out that with regard ppi it says something along the lines of 'Debenhams Payment Protection Plan if you do not want this cover simply use the Freepost to return the card.....' which means to me that it wasnt optional!

 

This is going to be a long battle but the stakes are high.

 

Santander also state that they are not responsible for Debenhams store staff actions in promoting the Store Card and applications. :eek:

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oh yes they are

 

go get 'em.

 

and don't forget the interst + 8% stat.

 

have a read of the guidance notes by alanalana, they are very good.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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oh yes they are

 

go get 'em.

 

and don't forget the interst + 8% stat.

 

have a read of the guidance notes by alanalana, they are very good.

 

dx

 

Thanks DX,

 

Thought that would be the case, the Debenhams staff were more interested in signing me up and promoting the card with a 10% discount on purchases if I took the card out ( as they still do to this day!) never even mentioned ppi.

 

The 'debt' is with CL I've cca'd them without reply or compliance - sent a reminder without getting a reply, so I have stopped paying them - expecting a court claim any day going on what I;ve read about them.

 

Have a letter from GE stating that the original agreement no longer exists and one from Santander stating the same after they bought GE.

 

The outstand balance is about £3900 and my claim for ppi is about £9500 including interest and the 8%, so if CL shove a court claim my way can I counter claim the ppi from them as they own the debt absolute.

 

Mind you, they and GE never severed an assignment letter and GE never issued a default notice - they state that DN are system generated and copies arent kept.

 

Starting to panic a wee bit regarding CL, not sure if I did the right thing in stopping payments due to non complaince to my cca request (March!).

 

beachy

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quite within your rights

NO CCA = NO PAY

and they know it.

 

go get that PPI back

 

good luck

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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OK so I have locked horns with GE over my own account, now fighting the cause on behalf of Mrs beachy, have sent GE a letter stating that her cca request is outstanding and that what they previously sent (post #1) is not her cca.

 

Have now received a letter from them stating;-

 

'I have noted your comments regarding the copy of the agreement we have supplied. However, this is a true copy that we are obliged to provide when requested under the Data Protection Act 1998 and it contains your signature. There is no requirement for us to supply you with a further copy.'

 

What they sent does not contain any section where a signature can be made let alone "it contains your signature".

 

I am sure what they sent is not enforceable as I cannot see any of the prescribed terms - let alone OH's signature they claim is there :???:

 

Beachy

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send them this

 

Send by recorded....and edit as required

 

Account In Dispute

 

Ref:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. A copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE**.

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore

 

 

You are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 78(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have Failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

__________________

 

PGH7447

 

 

Getting There Slowly

---------

 

Advice is given freely but is in no way meant to be taken as Gospel:-)

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  • 1 month later...

OH sent off for a refund of charges from Santander (Debenhams Store Card), this was their reply - already stand no chance of reclaiming ppi now it looks like they aint gonna refund charges :-x

 

Debreclaim1.jpg

 

 

 

Page 2

 

Debreclaim2.jpg

 

How can we stop CL getting their mits on it, dont think its got anything to do with them, they cant even provide the cca. Surely they should seek OH's agreement and acceptance before making a pathatic refund gesture - sorry but this one's got me mad as hell! :-x:x

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