MBNA CCA issue .... I don't trust them !

[blueotter]

Hi ,

You may want to have a look at my thread,do a search on blue otter mbna.

I'm going through very similar stuff to you and my account is in dispute due to what i and others believe is an unenforceable cca,however its not stopped them defaulting me !!

there's lot sof us in the same boat,a search on mbna + default will turn up quite a few threads.

[theHotHead]

Recently had a call from MBNA, witheld number, spoke to someone who tried to put the frighteners on me. Tried to say that nobody has won with this course of action.

 

Then tried to tell me it seems I am just trying to get out of the debt. I won't go into too much detail incase there are prying eyes but .. it would seem the battle is on !

[theHotHead]

I broke the golden rule and spoke to them on the phone recently, I know I shouldn't have but, I have this gut feeling:

 

I've been reading about being seen as trying to get out of a debt and not looking good in front of a judge. I've never avoided MBNA, when I had problems I told them, when I needed help I asked them. I spoke to their Customer Assistance and told them that I have no problem talking to them to arrange a solution once I received all my particulars back from them. So at no time could they accuse me of trying to run away from debt. I haven't tried to hide at all and I have tried to be helpful and not obstructive, surely that is not a bad thing ... right ?!!

[Capricorn1601]

i have never spoken to MBNA on the phone....hehe... they dont have my number! And in case you are looking MBNA my number is 0800 pi** o**!

[diddydicky]

I broke the golden rule and spoke to them on the phone recently, I know I shouldn't have but, I have this gut feeling:

 

I've been reading about being seen as trying to get out of a debt and not looking good in front of a judge. I've never avoided MBNA, when I had problems I told them, when I needed help I asked them. I spoke to their Customer Assistance and told them that I have no problem talking to them to arrange a solution once I received all my particulars back from them. So at no time could they accuse me of trying to run away from debt. I haven't tried to hide at all and I have tried to be helpful and not obstructive, surely that is not a bad thing ... right ?!!

 

WRONG!

 

 

" when i had poblems i told them, when i need help i asked them"

 

NOT the sort of statements you want on their tape recorders

 

DON'T DO IT DON''T DO IT DON'T DO IT!!

 

even what you think is the most innocent conversation will come back to haunt you!

[blueotter]

In hotheads defence i don't feel he's done much wrong in trying to reach an agreement prior to taking the fight to them. Making a token monthly payment is a tacit admission anyway and plenty of us are doing that until we can identify the best course of action.

 

Good advice though,do not engage in any telephone conversation in futuure,you don't want to be discussing anything unless its in the written format.The primary goal here is to establish the unenforceability of the cca along with their obscene practices in hiking interest rates and credit limits.

 

An agreement may well start off with the best of intentions on both sides but they're the ones who are responsible for many a persons misery and their improperly executed cca's will testify to that.

 

I broke the golden rule and spoke to them on the phone recently, I know I shouldn't have but, I have this gut feeling:

 

I've been reading about being seen as trying to get out of a debt and not looking good in front of a judge. ?!!

 

That's the problem with reading too many threads ,although i did come across one with "things you can say in answer to this in court".I'll try and find it but somebody else may help.

To my mind the bottom line if it ever gets that far is the enforceability of the cca,that's the issue at stake here.

Edited October 21, 2009 by blueotter

[theHotHead]

Dicky, I hear you.

 

But how could that possibly be used against me ? I mean it doesn't admit anything that is not already known. The person I spoke to seemed to make a point of saying they felt I was trying to get out of paying what I owe, but as far as I am concerned isn't that an obvious thing for them to say ?

 

What possible other reason could there be for ANYONE to go down this course of action if not to wipe out a debt using a legal loophole ?! Can anyone tell me a reason as to why they would be taking this course of action if not to get out of paying a debt ?!!!! Its stating the obvious if you ask me.

 

I read somewhere that a judge will be less likely to agree with unenforceability if they feel you are just trying to get out of paying a debt, whether or not this is true I have no idea, but like I said above, what other possible reason could there be as to why you are taking this course of action other than that ?? I shan't be so open next time though.

 

Dicky you mentioned that if the document I signed pointed to terms and conditions overleaf or words to that affect, I would be hard pushed to convince a judge that the Prescribed terms were not on the same side as the signature, but the form I signed does not say anything about Terms and Conditions overleaf or anywhere for that matter.

 

It was an application form I signed and it also says in bold that I have "received a copy of and agree to be bound by the MBNA Credit Card Terms and Conditions" - but I couldn't have received them as it was an application I filled in on the street I believe, handing over the signed form and getting nothing back. So the statement on the application form is factually incorrect. There is no way I went through any Terms and Conditions when I made the application and even if I did, numerous "conditions" were missing.

[diddydicky]

well, with respect, the fact that you cannot see the relevance- should you end up in court is precisely WHY you should never speak to them on the phone

 

after 3 or 4 phone calls you will "hang yourself"

 

keep it in writing and post up here what you intend to write BEFORE you send it

 

 

there is a world of difference of "getting out of a debt" and having it confirmed that the debt is legally unenforceable-

 

You may well have agreed to borrow some money from them- but without an agreement what would you do if they write and tell you the new interest rate is 39%?

 

Having it confirmed that the debt is legally unenforceable then leaves you with the "moral" option of whether to repay it and on what terms/rate of interest.

 

Of course the lender will say you are morally obliged if not legally obliged

 

i would reply " and you were morally obliged not to take the **** and raise your card rates to 18% and more when the bank rates were falling to 0.5%"- but you did so because (you thought) the agreement said that you could- your morals were nowhere in sight@

 

I would then tell them why i liken them to an ostrich-

 

they can both shove their bills up their arse!!

 

 

cheers

 

dick

Edited October 21, 2009 by diddydicky

[theHotHead]

Thanks Dick .. points taken !! From this point on they shall get no info from me, I know I said it before but I got cocky and thought their silence meant I was getting somewhere.

 

The 40 days is up this week for the Subject Access Request, I presume that is 40 calendar days .. right ?! If they fall foul of this what should my next step be ?

 

Cheers all

[theHotHead]

Got my SAR back within the 40 days, had a look through it, there seems to be nothing additional that would constitute a properly executed agreement.

 

I am getting messages to my mobile phone from hidden numbers, it comes up as "Please Read" and the message asks me to contact them. Also, they are sending me emails from random [email protected] telling me to contact MBNA.

 

These people are a joke !

 

As it stands I don't believe MBNA have a properly executed agreement, they are doing all sorts of sly things to get in contact with me. I placed the account in dispute and told them the CCA they sent me was not proper.

 

What should I do now ?? what happens if I do nothing ? What will they do next ?

 

cheers all.

[diddydicky]

my advice is do nothing-

[Capricorn1601]

ditto

[theHotHead]

Good morning all.

 

I recently had a call from MBNA telling me of an offer to settle the account as it stands to prevent any defaults or CCJs, I am looking for work and so I am unable to pay anything to anyone right now anyway, but the offer was for just under half of what is outstanding.

 

To be honest I'd take that. Problem is ... like I say, I am not working and the dribs and drabs I am getting from doing bits and pieces for friends just about pays the mortgage alone and nothing else. Because of this I haven't signed as unemployed - because I do have some money coming in.

 

What a conundrum. I can't borrow the money from anyone because a lot of friends and family are struggling to make ends meet because of the recession and those who aren't struggling simply don't have spare 1000s sat in the bank.

 

Seems absurd that they would make me this offer, in this climate, knowing I have no way of being able to take it and applying a very short and strict timetable to it !! If they gave me a longer period I'd have no doubts I could get the cash together, once January arrives budgets will be available and IT projects started - meaning the availability of jobs increases and I land myself a contract.

 

Its like they are dangling the proverbial carrot in front of me ... just out of reach, purposely !

 

Your advice please ladies and gents !!!

 

Thank you.

[blueotter]

Well good luck,it seems there's plenty of people being offered a settlement by these sharks but i've yet to hear of one person who's achieved anything.

I wrote in reply to their offer and made a settlement of around 40%,sent it recorded.........did i hear back did i ***. All i got was a stream of telephone calls from them which i refused to answer.

 

I then received a letter throug the post demanding payment etc etc etc NO MENTION of my letter to them whatsoever.

and so the circle begins again and again and again ad infinitum !!!

[diddydicky]

i would write and point out that

 

a/ i do not believe that you are in possession of a properly executed credit card agreement and/or one that would not be defeated by s127 (3) and i again offer you the opportunity, if you have such a document to simply send me a photocopy of it

 

b/ Notwithstanding the foregoing i do not have funds with which to reach a "50% settlement" with you

 

do NOT mark the letter without prejudice

[latipac girl]

I received an offer also but i believe they pass the remainder on to another debt company and therefore i think you should make sure it is in full and final settlement.

[theHotHead]

Dicky .... "do NOT mark the letter without prejudice", what does that mean ??

 

Thanks

[diddydicky]

if the letter is marked "without prejudice" the contents cannot be revealed to a court or third party.

 

in this case you want to be able to reveal the contents to the court if necessary

[blueotter]

dicky,

when i wrote a similar letter i was advised to mark it Without Prejudice....reason being that you are tacitly admitting to the account and monies owed and that this may well go against you should you get to a courtroom appearance.

[diddydicky]

well its up to you- if you are one of the 0.000000001% of people who genuinely did not enter into an agreement with a creditor to borrow money and never spent money that was not yours- then fine

 

You will be able to tell if you fall into this catergory because there will not be in existence any statements detailing your spending activities on the card in question/ or car/boat/plane/caravan etc sitting on your driveway.

 

if however you want a judge to beleive you as a witness, you need to start by showing him that you are not trying to "have your cake AND eat it"

 

What the vast majority of us are trying to do is prove that the debt or agreement (notwisthstanding any dispute about the amount being claimed) is NOT LEGALLY ENFORCEABLE, not that it does not or did not ever exist!

 

With regard to the above letter i would therefore WANT to be able, if i so wished to reveal the contents in court.

 

Alas, if you are one of the "i cant pay my debts and its not my fault but all the credit companies fault for getting me into this mess "brigade", then my advice is probably not relevant to you

[blueotter]

Thanks for clearing that up , lots of different views on how to deal with these companies,for my own part I don’t realistically expect any of my debts to disappear by magic or divine intervention.

I’m just trying to navigate my way through this the mess brought on by my own ill fortune and stupidity but compounded by the Banks wilful negligence, irresponsibility and greed.

I may just resend my letter without the prejudice comment so that I can show I haven’t been anything other than cooperative with them but I expect the same response,which will mean,i won't get one. !

[diddydicky]

Thanks for clearing that up , lots of different views on how to deal with these companies,for my own part I don’t realistically expect any of my debts to disappear by magic or divine intervention.

I’m just trying to navigate my way through this the mess brought on by my own ill fortune and stupidity but compounded by the Banks wilful negligence, irresponsibility and greed.

I may just resend my letter without the prejudice comment so that I can show I haven’t been anything other than cooperative with them but I expect the same response,which will mean,i won't get one. !

 

fast learner!!

[theHotHead]

Thanks Dicky !!

 

I have noticed this, that people are worried about the judge thinking they are just trying to get out of a debt they don't want to pay but, isn't the law the law, I mean, irrespective of someone's motives, if an agreement is not enforceable by law then it isn't enforceable, surely the judge's job is to determine the legality of each case not the motive behind them.

 

So what I want to know is can a judge dismiss a case based on someone's motives because ... that makes no sense to me, what does that have to do with the law ?!!!!

[theHotHead]

Otter - it's this greed which has thrust many of us into the situation we are in.

 

I have no idea how my original credit limit of £5K shot up to £11K !!! I never asked for a higher limit.

 

The bank's greed has created the credit crunch which has affected us all now, many of us not unwilling to pay our bills simply cannot - the banks have no problems in upping the interest rates to make things worse. Quick to raise them when the BoE do but slow to drop them when the BoE do !

 

Then WE pay yet again to bail out these greedy silly bankers with our taxpayer's money and we have cretins at RBS threatening to walk out if they do not get their massive bonuses again !

 

Even the bailout is a sham. The terms of agreement for the banking bailout was, to my understanding, created and approved by .... the same bankers getting bailed out.

 

How is this even possible ???? "Yes Mr bank manager, I will take a loan from you, but these are my terms and conditions for accepting your money". I'd like to see that take place in the real world.

[diddydicky]

Thanks Dicky !!

 

I have noticed this, that people are worried about the judge thinking they are just trying to get out of a debt they don't want to pay but, isn't the law the law, I mean, irrespective of someone's motives, if an agreement is not enforceable by law then it isn't enforceable, surely the judge's job is to determine the legality of each case not the motive behind them.

 

So what I want to know is can a judge dismiss a case based on someone's motives because ... that makes no sense to me, what does that have to do with the law ?!!!!

 

well the judge may well be biased towards the creditor (or you if you are lucky) and if so he WILL try and steer the decision that way

 

the trick is to make sure you put the legal authorities of your arguments in front of him in black and white so that he is backed into a corner

if you just rely on "opinion" whilst the other side quotes authority you are doomed