overturning a ccj

[Spamalot]

Thanks Spam

 

They certainly lamped on some large amounts when they originally defaulted me, which they might have difficulty justifying given their are no prescribed terms with the agreement.

 

By the way - what is a POC?

 

A POC is a Particulars of Claim.

 

It's the details that are put on the Blue form you get sent when you have to acknowledge the claim and say if you are going to defend or admit.

 

If you don't have a copy, contact the court that awarded the judgement and ask them for a copy... you may have to pay. I rang Northampton for mine and they sent it free of charge.

 

Once you have that you can set about itemising what you believe you can defend

 

So if it says they sent you something which you didn't receive like a notice of assignment or valid default notice or termination notice etc. they have to prove you got it.

 

As you say, if you have statements to prove unlawful charges etc. they are already on a sticky wicket with the amount of claim!

 

If you have any Default Notices please post them up and we can see if they were Valid..... HFC were always useless at getting them right

 

Turn the house upside down and look for anything to do with the account, because I've found they conveniently forget to send things in the SAR if it might go against them and they have been known to 'Doctor' defaults etc to make them valid!

 

Spam.

[mr newbloke]

Thanks again.

 

I will have to look through my paperwork to see what I have kept re default notices, assignments etc. Afraid I got pretty low at one point with fighting everyone off and went through a period of just slinging things in the bin.

 

Will let you know how I get on. Cheers and good luck with your endeavours - hope you get your 2 hearings separated.

[Spamalot]

Thanks again.

 

I will have to look through my paperwork to see what I have kept re default notices, assignments etc. Afraid I got pretty low at one point with fighting everyone off and went through a period of just slinging things in the bin. Guilty of that too but luckily managed to find a few little nuggets

 

Will let you know how I get on. Cheers and good luck with your endeavours - hope you get your 2 hearings separated. Thanks

 

Best of luck to you too. It may be a bit of a long drawn out process but you'll get guidance every step of the way here and hopefully a very positive result.

[itsamomentintime]

 

Will let you know how I get on

 

please do.

[r&b]

Do you think the total lack of prescribed terms in the oa together with my lack of understanding of the process of questioning this might be sufficient of itself?

 

a faulty CA (plus anything else u can muster via the SAR or other disclosure methods) gives u grounds under CPR 13.3, where the court MAY set aside a judgment:

 

PART 13 - SETTING ASIDE OR VARYING DEFAULT JUDGMENT - Ministry of Justice

 

ur lack of understanding will carry no weight if u admitted the claim in my opinion.

[Spamalot]

ur lack of understanding will carry no weight if u admitted the claim in my opinion.

 

I was going on the assumption that Mr N admitted the claim out of ignorance and lack of understanding of how to defend himself against the MIGHTY BANKERS ;-)... and now with a bit of research into his rights & the legalities of his documents and the help of CAG etc he is fighting back!

 

Just like me and you!

 

Spam

[mr newbloke]

Hi S

 

Hope you're righter than r&b (no disrespect) on this one.

 

Footnote to yesterday's exchanges - have looked out some paperwork, not found default etc yet BUT did receive a letter from sols Without Prejudice in Feb saying they were authorised subject to financial status to reduce the debt by 50% on behalf of CarVal. Where have you got to on the Phoenix/CarVal issue on your own case?

[Spamalot]

Hi S

 

Hope you're righter than r&b (no disrespect) on this one. Both R&B and I admitted our claims from bad advice from Debt Management companies and ignorance.. I think R&B is just saying Ignorance shouldn't be the only factor when applying for a set aside you need a lot more to convince the judge that you have a case with a good chance of defence and a good reason why you didn't defend it originally... when you get around to filling in the application you will be advised of the best way to do it.

 

Footnote to yesterday's exchanges - have looked out some paperwork, not found default etc yet BUT did receive a letter from sols Without Prejudice in Feb saying they were authorised subject to financial status to reduce the debt by 50% on behalf of CarVal. Where have you got to on the Phoenix/CarVal issue on your own case?

 

I haven't received anything yet with regards to CARVAL in fact I've no idea where they fit in in my case!

 

I have asked the court to request the documents be disclosed regarding the 'Assignments' of my alleged debt but as yet I'm still waiting for a result.

 

If you can, Get SAR in the post today to Weightmans and if you can afford it another one to HFC. In my case Marlin and HFC sent different documents that seemed to contradict each other so it was a bit of a bonus!.

 

It might be best if you wait for the response to your SAR before you apply for the Set aside as it will give you more weight to your defence unless you manage to find copies of dodgy things in your own paperwork.

 

The fact that you have corres from Carval already makes the assignment situation suspicious... you should have been informed of ALL assignments of the debt...

 

Just dig as deep as you can and see what you can unearth..

 

Spam.

[r&b]

I was going on the assumption that Mr N admitted the claim out of ignorance and lack of understanding of how to defend himself against the MIGHTY BANKERS ;-)... and now with a bit of research into his rights & the legalities of his documents and the help of CAG etc he is fighting back!

 

Just like me and you!

 

Spam

 

hi spam

yeah u can put it into any application but mine was dismissed with "well u were of sound mind when u admitted it werent u?" type comments and coupled with the CPR is why i think it carries no weight.

as u say spam the docs are the be all n end all for a decent defence. there is always the CPR route for disclosure open. PTs 31.16 thread may come in useful if u want to get the set aside moving. worth a read anyway.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

[faza]

hi, i would appeal the judgement on the grounds that when you admitted it you were under the impression that the claimant was brining about the claim with legal authority, however after finding new evidence you have found that the uneligble agreement contravenes the cca and is not enforceable by law, for this reason you want the judgement set aside,

 

the reason to appeal is that you have a very weak chance of getting the judgement set aside using the normal procedure.

 

 

the interest and default charges will keep on building up that is why the amount is higher then on the claim.

 

 

I am not a legal expert I might have made mistakes in what i have written. If you have found any mistakes please feel free to point them out. Anything posted on this forum is for discussion purposes only. It should not be considered as legal advice. Different people have different needs and what is right for one person may be different for another. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an legal expert who can advise you after finding out more about your situation.

[mr newbloke]

hi, i would appeal the judgement on the grounds that when you admitted it you were under the impression that the claimant was brining about the claim with legal authority, however after finding new evidence you have found that the uneligble agreement contravenes the cca and is not enforceable by law, for this reason you want the judgement set aside,

 

the reason to appeal is that you have a very weak chance of getting the judgement set aside using the normal procedure.

 

 

the interest and default charges will keep on building up that is why the amount is higher then on the claim.

 

 

I am not a legal expert I might have made mistakes in what i have written. If you have found any mistakes please feel free to point them out. Anything posted on this forum is for discussion purposes only. It should not be considered as legal advice. Different people have different needs and what is right for one person may be different for another. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an legal expert who can advise you after finding out more about your situation.

Hi Faza

 

Thanks for this. Am I understanding you correctly? Appealing a judgement is just a different methodology/process for getting a judgement set aside?

 

If so, what is involved, is it expensive and would I need solicitors to act for me?

[Spamalot]

Hi Mr N,

 

I must admit, I always thought that 'appealing a judgement' was when you had been to court, defended and fought your corner and then lost the case...

 

SPIG - Appealing a judgment

 

This was on google, could be helpful...or not :-|

 

My understanding was, that if you didn't defend at the time but you believe you have a case now, that you can APPLY for the judgement to be set aside and go back to square one.... There are no guarantees that the hearing or set aside will be granted but if the judge thinks that you have a good chance to defend your case and be successful he MAY grant a set aside.

 

That is just my understanding of it but I'm more than happy to be corrected 'cause I'm not a Lawyer and only going by personal experience and what I've researched so far.

 

I really don't want to be confusing you, or leading you up the garden path.

 

If you haven't already, do have a read of the beginning of this thread because it does seem to have remarkable similarities to your situation.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/dca-legal-successes/139232-hfc-restons-charging-order.html

 

I'll keep googling.

 

Spam

Edited June 15, 2009 by Spamalot

[mr newbloke]

Hi Mr N,

 

I must admit, I always thought that 'appealing a judgement' was when you had been to court, defended and fought your corner and then lost the case...

 

SPIG - Appealing a judgment

 

This was on google, could be helpful...or not!

 

My understanding was, that if you didn't defend at the time but you believe you have a case now, that you can APPLY for the judgement to be set aside and go back to square one.... There are no guarantees that the hearing or set aside will be granted but if the judge thinks that you have a good chance to defend your case and be successful he MAY grant a set aside.

 

That is just my understanding of it but I'm more than happy to be corrected 'cause I'm not a Lawyer and only going by personal experience and what I've researched so far.

 

I really don't want to be confusing you or leading you up the garden path.

 

If you haven't already do have a read of the beginning of this thread because it does seem to have similarities to your situation.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/dca-legal-successes/139232-hfc-restons-charging-order.html

 

I'll keep googling.

 

Spam

Spam

 

You're tireless - saw your entries towards the end of the advised thread.

 

Conclusion I am reaching is that too much time may have elapsed (judgement was sept 09) and unlike satterthwaite, I don't think there have been any strange goings on re assignment etc. Although oa was with HFC, they used Weightmans on this occasion and sold it on to Phoenix. No Marlins/Restons/Mortimers in sight.

 

Will my requesting the SAR have the effect of prodding them into further action? They've just written to me demanding I complete their financial status form and increase my payments to them. Pursuing their rights under an agreement which has no terms and which they probably bought for £50!

 

From what I'm reading in here, as far the private individual is concerned the court's motto is not so much caveat emptor as caveat sucker.

[faza]

hi depending on the evidence the judge could do alot more then set aside the judgement, but getting the judgement set aside could allow you time to organise a defence.

 

to appeal you will have to write to the court which issued the judgement asking them permission to appeal the judgement on the new evidence you have, the court will read your evidence and weigh up whether your case has merits for appeal, if it does then they will allow an appeal.

 

what you could do is phone the court who issued the judgement explain to them you have new evidence and you would like to appeal hopefully they will put you in the right direction.

 

 

I am not a legal expert I might have made mistakes in what i have written. If you have found any mistakes please feel free to point them out. Anything posted on this forum is for discussion purposes only. It should not be considered as legal advice. Different people have different needs and what is right for one person may be different for another. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an legal expert who can advise you after finding out more about your situation.

 

 

 

Hi Faza

 

Thanks for this. Am I understanding you correctly? Appealing a judgement is just a different methodology/process for getting a judgement set aside?

 

If so, what is involved, is it expensive and would I need solicitors to act for me?

[Spamalot]

Hi, NB,

At the end of the day it is your decision.

 

I'm guessing the CCJ was sep 08? you've put 09 so not sure how old it is ...either way it can be done but only if you have the passion and enthusiasm for it, no-one can force you!! Confidence in what you are doing is also an asset, and that grows with the more you learn about your own case and the people you are dealing with.

 

If you send a SAR and something turns up there's nothing to stop you applying for a set aside in a couple of months time if you feel ready then and also if you feel you have more of a defence.

 

Are you able to scan a copy of the CCJ and the letter they've written you with their current demands ( ID removed)and post it up for us to have a look see? Maybe there's something someone can help you with there.

 

It's never hopeless.

 

Spam

[mr newbloke]

Hi, NB,

At the end of the day it is your decision.

 

I'm guessing the CCJ was sep 08? you've put 09 so not sure how old it is ...either way it can be done but only if you have the passion and enthusiasm for it, no-one can force you!! Confidence in what you are doing is also an asset, and that grows with the more you learn about your own case and the people you are dealing with.

 

If you send a SAR and something turns up there's nothing to stop you applying for a set aside in a couple of months time if you feel ready then and also if you feel you have more of a defence.

 

Are you able to scan a copy of the CCJ and the letter they've written you with their current demands ( ID removed)and post it up for us to have a look see? Maybe there's something someone can help you with there.

 

It's never hopeless.

 

Spam

Hi S

 

Yes I meant sept 2008. Sorry, just a bit down but will bounce back.

 

No scanner at present, must get one sorted. Re their form, they are asking for everything - employment, P60's, list of other creditors, with up to date statements etc., bank acccount details - everything but the kitchen sink.

 

Am I bound to supply all this? I have drawn up my own financial statement and creditor list and propose to send it off with an inference that I know they have bought an unlawful agreement and am considering doing something about it.

[Spamalot]

Sorry to seem really dim

 

But have you been asked to pay full amount of the CCj or by installments?

[cds]

I have noticed you keep mentioning a defective cca produced as a result of s77/78 out of curiosity have they sent a copy of your agreement at the time or their interpretation of a true copy you would have signed at the time. There is a big difference.

 

cds:)

[mr newbloke]

I have noticed you keep mentioning a defective cca produced as a result of s77/78 out of curiosity have they sent a copy of your agreement at the time or their interpretation of a true copy you would have signed at the time. There is a big difference.

 

cds:)

Hi CDS

 

Photostat of the actual bearing absolutely no terms and conditions.

[mr newbloke]

Sorry to seem really dim

 

But have you been asked to pay full amount of the CCj or by installments?

Judgement was for monthly amount I couldn't conceivably afford. Phoenix lodged with court letter to me where they made it quite clear if I wouldn't pay the instalments they wanted a forthwith to enable them to raise a co. It seems to be a sort of cosy club between the professional plaintiffs and th judges, who don't seem to see a problem with securing in the full amount an unsecured debt which has been purchased for pence in the pound.

 

Judge was totally ignorant of the law as well as I now realise when he proclaimed ' they can now follow whatever course they choose including charging interest'. With tw*ts like that on the bench what hope is there?

[Spamalot]

Judgement was for monthly amount I couldn't conceivably afford. Phoenix lodged with court letter to me where they made it quite clear if I wouldn't pay the instalments they wanted a forthwith to enable them to raise a co. It seems to be a sort of cosy club between the professional plaintiffs and th judges, who don't seem to see a problem with securing in the full amount an unsecured debt which has been purchased for pence in the pound. I'm asuming that now the house is being sold and they can't get their pound of flesh that way,they now have to settle for installments again and are attempting to negotiate...Is that right? If so at least you have thwarted their evil plans for instant gratification and it gives you more time to build a defense if you decide to go that route.

 

Judge was totally ignorant of the law as well as I now realise when he proclaimed ' they can now follow whatever course they choose including charging interest'.you know they can't do that 'cause its a consumer regulated agreement. With tw*ts like that on the bench what hope is there?

 

I must confess I have no experience of how the payment of a ccj is varied after a CO has been awarded.

 

There's this factsheet on debtline,

 

National Debtline England & Wales | Debt Advice | Factsheet 08 Reducing Payments Or Suspending A Bailiffs Warrant On A County Court Judgment

 

but I think that's only useful if you've already been paying installments.

 

You probably will have to do an income and expeniture to say how much you can afford but it's worth looking into whether you can submit your own or whether you have to fill in theirs. Don' t be bullied by them! They have already done their worst and they can't get what you haven't got!!.

 

Sorry not much help on this one.

 

It may be worth giving debtline a call.... they gave some excellent advice to me when I first got my head out of the sand!

 

Spam.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Spamalot