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Amending Bank Charges Claim (advice Please)


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I stumbled across the following in the Templates Library.

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You Must amend your Bank Charges claim from penalties to UTCCR.

 

In my personal claim OVERVIEW I submitted the following.

 

I submit that the charges levied to my bank account, as set out in the enclosed schedule, are, notwithstanding the defence of the defendant,default penalty charges arising directly from my breaches of the contract between myself and the defendant. As a contractual penalty, it is submitted that the charges are unenforceable by virtue of the UNFAIR TERMS in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 and the numerous long-settled principles of the common law.

 

1) Do I have to send an amended claim to the bank/court.

OR

2) Have I in my initial claim covered the point that the charges are unenforceable by virtue of the (UTCCR) and the numerous long-settled principles of the common law.

 

 

Any advice comments will be gratefully received,

 

 

"EXEMPLO DUCEMUS"

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I'm not too sure what you mean by a "personal claim overview". Do you mean your particulars of claim?

 

Anyway what you seem to have written is a bit of a mishmash. You refer to theUnfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations, so that is okay. However you are suggesting that the unfair terms regulations in fact deal with penalties -- which they do not at all. Where did you get this all from? Not from our site I hope.

 

Frankly you would be better off amending. When did you actually issue your claim? Maybe there are further charges which you can add to the claim. Have you probably calculated all of the interest which you paid on your charges? Most people haven't. Certainly if you are able to add further charges and also to go back and to identify any interest charges which have been taken from you because your overdraft has been comprised of charges, then you should certainly amend your claim.

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BankFodder,

 

"Personal Claim Overview"Is the Overview Section stated in the 1st Witness Statement - submitted to Court in Trial Bundle (which was taken from CAG Template Library) Directions forwarded to myself from Gary H. and Zootscoot. ie.

 

Overview Para. 9

 

I submit that the charges levied to my bank account, as set out in the enclosed schedule, are, notwithstanding the defence of the defendant, default penalty charges arising directly from my breaches of the contract between myself and the Defendant. As a contractual penalty, it is submitted that the charges are unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 ("UTCCR") and numerous long-settled principles of the common law.

 

Claim Issued 28th June 2007. - Claim stayed 30th October 2007.

Edited by JGJ
FAUX PAS
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Is there anyone willing to comment further re my posts and the comments contained in the post by BankFodder #2.

 

The comment "Not from our site I hope". Does not fill me with much optimism, that my claim will be successful

Further comments and opinions will be gratefully received.

 

"EXEMPLO DUCEMUS"

Edited by JGJ
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Could a moderator/site helper please move this thread to a more appropriate site as I do not seem to be attracting comment.

 

"EXEMPLO DUCEMUS"

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JGJ,Bankfodder refers to the judgements made in the test case from last October and handed down in January.

The Judgement ruled that charges cannot be deemed as penalties under common law.Therefore any reference to this should be removed from your particulars of claim.

You will still be able to rely on UTCCR,because the earlier test case ruling found that the wording of all the Banks terms and conditions to be unintelligible therefore unfair.

Bankfodder suggested that maybe there are other charges that you can add-so meaning that this could be done at the same time-and probably absorb some of the costs of the amendments.

Your ammendment needs to be done using form N244 on notice.There will be a charge for this.

If the defendants are in agreement,then there will be no need for a hearing,although its possible that you will be granted your application at the Courts own notion and so without a hearing.

Hope this is all clearer.

Bankfodders reference to hoping that you did not get the info from this site is self explanatory-in that there is NO PROVISION to use Common law as part of any defence,given the test case Judgement.

Hope this clarifies things more clearly.

Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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MARTIN3030,

 

Thanks for the info, I have 2 bank charges claims "stayed" in the system at the moment, obviously I will have to do them both, will it be two new amendments to my particulars of claim, or can I do them together.at the same time.

 

Are there any templates for the amendment to particulars of claim, or has anyone wrote them up anywhere??

Any further assisstance will be gratefully received.

 

 

 

"EXEMPLO DUCEMUS"

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MARTIN3030,

 

Thanks for the info, I have 2 bank charges claims "stayed" in the system at the moment, obviously I will have to do them both, will it be two new amendments to my particulars of claim, or can I do them together.at the same time.

 

Are there any templates for the amendment to particulars of claim, or has anyone wrote them up anywhere??

Any further assisstance will be gratefully received.

 

 

 

"EXEMPLO DUCEMUS"

 

 

Yes you will have amendments to make for each claim-so there will need to be 2 apps.

 

I am unsure if there is a template as such,although there has been lots of discussions.

 

It is relatively straightforward.

 

Firstly go to the HMCS website and click on forms.

Select N244 and fill it in online.

You only have to do one copy-although you may want to print off 2 one for your own file.

 

Fill the form in.

 

in the box at the top left hand;

 

Tick at a hearing

leave others blank

Q5 district Judge/Deputy district Judge

 

Q6 Defendants

 

Part A

 

To amend the particulars of claim in this case.

Part B

Click on box evidence in part C

 

 

Part C.

 

this does not have to say anything too complex.

 

 

I suggest something like this.

 

 

Following the Commercial Court ruling made in the test case OFT v Abbey and others,that bank charges were incapable of being a penalty under common law,claimant seeks to amend particulars of claim to remove this.

The defendants will be aware of the Courts judgement.Addtionally claimant seeks to amend the amount being claimed,in consideration of further charges applied to the account in the interim period of filing the original claim.

The defendant has been furnished with a copy of these additional charges,in a revised schedule which is attatched to this application.

 

Use the red portion as well if you are adding charges..

 

Basically you submit the same claim partics as before just editing out the references to common law and penalties.

Also remove any case law if you inserted it eg;Dunlop.

 

Attatch your new POC to the N244 with any new schedule.

If the charges remain unchanged,then submit a further copy of the original.

Sont forget to add a statement of truth under the wording in Part C

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

If you have more charges-send the defendants a copy-the court will send them a copy of your application.

Edited by MARTIN3030

Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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Yes it confirms whats been advised-it needs amending.

I also noticed the date 1999?

Is your claim for charges outside limitation ?

If so this also needs addressing in the revised POCS.

Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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MARTIN3030,

 

Thanks for the speedy responses,the 1999 was the date the account was opened, the date of our initial claim is actually,

 

03.01.2001-02.10.2006. My both accounts have been stayed since Oct 2007, what further problems will that cause, if at all?

 

What is POCS (Partic of claims)

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Ah ok.POCS=Particulars of claim yes.

so if your charges relate to the earliest one 03/01/2001 this means that you would have needed to have filed your claim by 03/01/2007 6 years right ?

When did you file it then ?

If it was later than 03/01/2007 then you will also need to cover yourself under the limitation act.

Can advise further when you have answered this.

Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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MARTIN3030,

 

Is the date of filing that you require, is that the date on the claim form, under the claim number ********

 

Issue date ** ** **

 

If it is then claim 1) Schedule for claim for charges 16/01/2001-11/12/2006

 

Issue Date= 28/06/07

 

Claim 2 Schedule for claim for charges 03/01/2001-02/10/2006

 

Issue date = 27/06/07

 

The claim form I refer to is N1 Claim form (CPR Part 7) (01.02)

 

I think the discrepancy re the dates stems from when we made the first approach to lloyds with initial letters to reclaim the charges. Both accounts initial letter to Lloyds sent 14th May 2007.Requesting all default charges +interest under the UTCCR 1999.

 

Sorry if I am confusing you can you tell me when the clock starts running is it

A) From first letter to Lloyds requesting ret. of charges etc

 

B) Issue date on claim form

 

Letters to Lloyds and SC@M sols cover many weeks of correspondence.

I hope it is becoming a little clearer to you as it is still all a little fuzzy to me.

 

Would it help if I posted up any letters etc. for you??

When sending Letter to bank for consent to amend and amended forms does it go to Lloyds or SC@M sols??

 

 

"EXEMPLO DUCEMUS"

Edited by JGJ
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Yes it confirms whats been advised-it needs amending.

I also noticed the date 1999?

Is your claim for charges outside limitation ?

If so this also needs addressing in the revised POCS.

 

Hi JGJ and Martin,

 

Apologies for hijacking here, but I have just read this and have a question if that's ok?

 

I am about to fill out an N1 now against LTSB and have taken BankFodder's advice re: claiming charges that go back beyond 6 years in our prelim/LBA etc.

 

What do I, or indeed others, need to do regarding such a claim being outside of the 6 year limitation period? How would this affect the way I word my POC please?

 

Once again sorry for the intrusion and good luck with your claim JGJ!

 

Regards,

 

Landy x

LTSB PPI on various loans (current/settled) - Refunded inc 8%

 

MBNA 1 Charges - Refunded inc CI

 

MBNA 1 PPI - Refunded

 

MBNA 2 Charges - Refunded inc 8%

 

MBNA 2 PPI - Refunded

 

MBNA 2 Accident Ins - Refunded

 

Swift Advances (settled) Mortgage Charges -Partially refunded

 

Swift Advances (settled) Mortgage PPI - Refunded inc CI & 8%

 

Sainsburys (settled) Loan PPI - Refunded inc CI +8%

 

Sainsburys (closed) Card Charges - Refunded inc CI + 8%

 

M&S Money (closed) Card Charges - Refunded inc CI

 

M&S Money (closed) Card PPI - Refunded inc 8%

 

Direct Line (settled) Loan PPI - Refunded inc CI + 8%

 

Debenhams Card (closed) PPI - Refunded inc 8%

 

Swift Mortgage Charges -Refunded

 

Hitachi Finance (closed) Charges - Refunded

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I suggest the following;

 

"For charges that fall outside the 6 year limitation rule,claimant seeks to rely on section 32c of the limitation act,being that the claimant paid the charges under mistaken belief.

The precedent for this was Kleinwort Benson Ltd v Lincoln City Council."

 

 

If the defendant disputes the limitation it is very likely that a hearing will be listed to consider it,but the precedent is quite clear and watertight.

 

You will need to download copies of the judgement in this case for later-would be a good idea to look over it so that you are familiar.

  • Haha 1

Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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JGJ limitation under section 32c allows you to consider action from when you first became aware that you had cause to do so.

Your earliest charges were January 2001 -your initial contact to have them refunded was May 2007 so yes-you are still 4 months out-and more when you take filing the claim in Court.

Using section 32c limitation starts from when you first became aware that the charges were unfair (not penalties since this has been ruled out)

Your first becoming aware would therefore be either through media reports or the OFTs investigations.

 

Likewise as indicated above to the other poster-it is easily addressed in your revised/amended Pocs as I have detailed.

Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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I suggest the following;

 

"For charges that fall outside the 6 year limitation rule,claimant seeks to rely on section 32c of the limitation act,being that the claimant paid the charges under mistaken belief.

The precedent for this was Kleinwort Benson Ltd v Lincoln City Council."

 

 

If the defendant disputes the limitation it is very likely that a hearing will be listed to consider it,but the precedent is quite clear and watertight.

 

You will need to download copies of the judgement in this case for later-would be a good idea to look over it so that you are familiar.

 

Many thanks Martin and apologies again to JGJ for hijacking:D

LTSB PPI on various loans (current/settled) - Refunded inc 8%

 

MBNA 1 Charges - Refunded inc CI

 

MBNA 1 PPI - Refunded

 

MBNA 2 Charges - Refunded inc 8%

 

MBNA 2 PPI - Refunded

 

MBNA 2 Accident Ins - Refunded

 

Swift Advances (settled) Mortgage Charges -Partially refunded

 

Swift Advances (settled) Mortgage PPI - Refunded inc CI & 8%

 

Sainsburys (settled) Loan PPI - Refunded inc CI +8%

 

Sainsburys (closed) Card Charges - Refunded inc CI + 8%

 

M&S Money (closed) Card Charges - Refunded inc CI

 

M&S Money (closed) Card PPI - Refunded inc 8%

 

Direct Line (settled) Loan PPI - Refunded inc CI + 8%

 

Debenhams Card (closed) PPI - Refunded inc 8%

 

Swift Mortgage Charges -Refunded

 

Hitachi Finance (closed) Charges - Refunded

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Its ok many people do it-but this subject was obviously something you needed to be clear on.

Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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MARTIN3030,

 

Once again thank you for advice and directions,before I start to assemble the amendments etc one last point,

 

Do the amended forms go to the bank or the banks sols??

 

 

"EXEMPLO DUCEMUS"

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landy alert,

 

No apologies necessary,we are here to share info and expertise, Martin is amongst the best, who will offer their skills and knowledge freely on this site, to them I say thank you, I accede to their greater knowledge. :D

 

 

"EXEMPLO DUCEMUS"

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landy alert,

 

No apologies necessary,we are here to share info and expertise, Martin is amongst the best, who will offer their skills and knowledge freely on this site, to them I say thank you, I accede to their greater knowledge. :D

 

 

"EXEMPLO DUCEMUS"

 

Thank you JGJ!

 

I have clicked both your's and Martin's scales to say thanks for a helpful thread and useful info!

 

Regards,

 

Landy x

LTSB PPI on various loans (current/settled) - Refunded inc 8%

 

MBNA 1 Charges - Refunded inc CI

 

MBNA 1 PPI - Refunded

 

MBNA 2 Charges - Refunded inc 8%

 

MBNA 2 PPI - Refunded

 

MBNA 2 Accident Ins - Refunded

 

Swift Advances (settled) Mortgage Charges -Partially refunded

 

Swift Advances (settled) Mortgage PPI - Refunded inc CI & 8%

 

Sainsburys (settled) Loan PPI - Refunded inc CI +8%

 

Sainsburys (closed) Card Charges - Refunded inc CI + 8%

 

M&S Money (closed) Card Charges - Refunded inc CI

 

M&S Money (closed) Card PPI - Refunded inc 8%

 

Direct Line (settled) Loan PPI - Refunded inc CI + 8%

 

Debenhams Card (closed) PPI - Refunded inc 8%

 

Swift Mortgage Charges -Refunded

 

Hitachi Finance (closed) Charges - Refunded

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