RLP Claim Debenhams **Case closed**

[intheding]

Hi All,

 

Just wondered if the planet size brains here could help pass an opinion

 

A couple of weeks ago my wife was caught shoplifting in Debenham's. She has Bi-Polar and is also an alcoholic (Called a dual disorder in medical circles, medicates with alcohol to stop her being manic). She was in the grip of a manic episode, one symptom of this is making impulsive and reckless decisions and was quite drunk.

 

She never left the shop and she was arrested taken to the police station then released on police bail and due to her mental issues the CPS have decided to take No further action, which is good but now I have to deal with RLP.

 

We have a letter from my wifes GP saying that she has these conditions and that it was more than likely her behaviour was due to both conditions. What I am not sure of is how to phrase the letter to RLP as while its very big mittigation they dont seem to be fond of mitigating circumstances.

 

They are after £380 of which £130 is for the goods (Never left the shop and were undamaged according to the PC who arrested my wife)

£150 for there time, £45 for Administration and £55 for Security and surveillance.

 

Should I offer them anything? What are your thoughts?

[Yorky2008]

Didnt RLP claim that they did not persue individuals with mental health problems? I think it was on the Tesco thread but the document appears to have been deleted. Maybe someone else can confirm, but if this is the case then point out to them they are going against their own company practices.

 

Yorky.

[shanty]

It might be quicker to contact Debenhams Head Office to ask why they are trying to pursue someone with mental health issues,as stated above.They should have established this fact at the time,but then it may have been difficult if she was drunk.

 

Edit-obviously it would help everyone else if you also took the official line,though I suspect Debs may bounce you backto RLP,who may in turn ignore you.

Edited June 10, 2009 by shanty

[intheding]

Will they speak to us as they seem to devolve that issue to RLP? I am happy to give them a call but just wonder if they are set up to deal with that?

 

But Hey I will give them a bell tomorrow cant hurt

[sequenci]

I'm going to draw this to the attention of the site team. You're in safe hands and will have a reply from our RLP guru real soon

 

(Welcome to our forum by the way!)

[JonCris]

Write & tell them you won't be paying anything - Also point out that as everyone including the Police & the CPS have decide on no further action because of your wife's illness your at a loss to understand why they continue to pursue her - Furthermore isn't the pursuit of such a person with mental health problems contrary to their own guidelines as well as those set out in their contracts with their own clients

 

Remember it's absolutely essential that you refer to your Wifes illness & try to produce evidence such as a doctors note confirming her condition

 

That should get them off your backs & if not there are plenty here who'll help

Edited June 10, 2009 by JonCris

[JonCris]

intheding can you PM me please

[ScarletPimpernel]

One of the earliest RLP threads concerned Debenhams; in that case, despite their early attempts to slope shoulders, Debenhams Head Office eventually got rid of RLP.

[MARTIN3030]

Yes agreed.

The fact that the CPS have closed the file is one good line of defence,but equally the moral obligations and duties top it off.

Its interesting how much more this has deviated from the usual £137.50.

Perhaps an attempt to penalise you for the lack of money they have been able to recover from Caggers.

Its a shocking story-but there seems no end to them.

Advice as always-ignore RLPs demands-and a strongly worded letter to Debs.

[intheding]

Hi all, Just a quick update phoned Debenhams Head Office who didn't have a contact name for anyone involved in working with RLP. The Best they could do was put me through to the store, I spoke to someone in the security office who while was helpful was unable to do anything. Strikes me as quite weird that no-one seems to know who owns the relationship with RLP.

 

I'll be trying the store manager next.

 

Also to be fair to RLP they had no knowledge that my wife has mental health issues. Hopefully once they get the letter and the GP's letter they will do the right and sensible thing.

Edited June 11, 2009 by intheding

[slick132]

The Site Team also feel that no crime was actually committed here, regardless of YW's illness and condition at the time.

 

You say YW, "....was caught shop-lifting..." "She never left the shop....."

 

Unless she LEFT the shop intending NOT to pay for goods, no crime was committed.

 

As Martin has said, ignore RLP and deal with Debenhams only.

 

[intheding]

I have just spoken to my wife. The issue is she has no recollection of the event She can remember getting on the bus into town and that's it. Its all blurry in her mind up to the point where she was asked to come with a plain clothed security guard (He had a Man U top on and my son is a Man U fan So she remembers that).

 

So I cant be sure if she was still in the shop I think its going to be hard to find out the truth.

 

The Debenhams security people said they have handed it off to RLP and there is nothing they can do. Should I write to the manager of the branch explaining?

[MARTIN3030]

You should focus on keeping things in writing-this gives you evidence in any replies.

I think you will find that responses in writing will be much more guarded and contrived than anything you will get by phone.

For Debs send it recorded and keep a copy,asking for a response within 14 days.

Passing the buck is a favourite by phone-and you have no recourse unless the calls are recorded.

keep us posted on anything further.

You can expect the legendary letter 2 from RLP after 21 days to say any discounts are now withdrawn bla bla bla.

[JonCris]

Also DO NOT let Debenhams off the hook - RLP are their agents & they are responsible for RLP's actions at ALL times - also if Debenhams ARE already aware of your wifes condition then it should be they telling RLP to back off not you

 

I will prepare you a letter to send to Debenhams reminding them of their liability in this matter & that any civil action by you will be directed at them with RLP 2nd In other words should you choose you will sue both of them for the stress & upset they have caused to not only you but also your unwell wife

[shanty]

The Site Team also feel that no crime was actually committed here, regardless of YW's illness and condition at the time.

 

You say YW, "....was caught shop-lifting..." "She never left the shop....."

 

Unless she LEFT the shop intending NOT to pay for goods, no crime was committed.

 

As Martin has said, ignore RLP and deal with Debenhams only.

 

 

It's not true that you have to leave the shop,although it's widely believed.There are several circumstances where it is not neccesary.In this case it may have been felt the OPs wife might have caused a scene if stopped outside,or injured someone,so they decided to stop her in a more contained area. Saying that,I wouldn't recommend the layperson to stop anyone inside the shop.

 

The Manager probably wont be familiar with the fact that RLP claim not to pursue people who have mental illnesses,even though it's obviously wrong in anyones eyes.He could be asked is the aware this is the case.

Edited June 11, 2009 by shanty

[JonCris]

It's not just widely believed it's a fact in law - Until the person leaves the store without paying there is no mens rea proven - perhaps again it's this lack of understanding of the law which is bringing the security industry into disrepute

[shanty]

Police have upheld several cases where the defendant has passed the last point of payment, when they have concealed the goods,I know of these personally-the person has been found guilty.

I have also known of cases where (where for example there was a gang of accomplies waiting outside,where the descision to stop them inside has been upheld) many other cases too.

 

My personal experience-not just from lawbooks.

[MARTIN3030]

Theres been lots of discussion on this in the past.

I remember specifically something about concealment-its a sketchy area.

Concealing something say-under your coat is not classed as shoplifting until the person goes through the checkout without attempting to pay for it.

But what if a security guard stopped a person on seeing the concealment ?

Since it cannot be proven that the person intended to avoid payment since they were not given opportunity to pay at the checkout ?

[MARTIN3030]

Theres other scenarios that raise questions-in some cases.

 

I heard about one guy who went in ASDA for a couple of items.On seeing that there were big queues at the checkouts-he went through them and headed for the cigarette kiosk to try to pay there-he was stopped by security before he reached there and frogmarched into the office.

Both Tesco and Asda will happily serve customers with one or two items from the main aisles at the cigarette kiosk when they are not busy.

Morrisons however,will NOT do this and send you back to the main checkouts.

[intheding]

Thanks guys for all the support and advice. I suppose I am a little hesitant to go totally bananas at them in the first instance as while she was of diminished responsibility she still did put them out while she was having her manic episode.

 

Saying that though I do believe in corporate responsibility and continuing to pursue us via the courts isn't going to help my wife's recovery.

 

Saying that she is due to go into rehab next month is that something else to mention? Will it help speed things up?

 

I suppose RLP prey on the fact people just want these things to go away and for the most part quite ashamed

[sequenci]

Morrisons however,will NOT do this and send you back to the main checkouts.

 

They let me at the one in Birmingham

[MARTIN3030]

RLP prey on the fact that people are ignorant to their rights,and that many simply pay up without question,faced with their threats.

As has been said,any written evidence that you can summon will benefit your communications with Debenhams.

In regard to you needing this to counter any Court action from RLP-then thats extremely remote.

[MARTIN3030]

They let me at the one in Birmingham

 

Maybe the decisions vary from store to store-but mine wouldnt even serve me with a packet of tomatoes.

[sequenci]

Maybe the decisions vary from store to store-but mine wouldnt even serve me with a packet of tomatoes.

 

Well in that case I'm going to boycott them!

[MARTIN3030]

Maybe the cashier was allergic to Spanish class 2 tomatoes ?

Talking about boycotts Ken Morrison was a director of the RLF and a sponsor of Bradford Bulls Rugby club-When a planning application went in for St.Helens Rugby Clubs new stadium Ken objected and tried to thwart plans because part of the deal involves a Tesco store.

.Furious at this-many people in the town Boycotted Morrisons two stores here-and there was a climbdown.