Lloyds CCA - is it enforceable?

[vjohn82]

i think weve flogged that one to death now!

 

Do you yield sir???

[Massamum]

dont forget that you can take a "buddy" to court and in most cases if you ask the court and tell them you are nervous they will allow your buddy to speak for you

 

there are buddies on this forum who will go with you to curt (including myself) if you are nearby=- click on the buddies link

 

That is most reassuring DD, I would certainly like to take you up on that offer (or another CAG buddy if you're too far away), if I do have to go to court. Thank you.

[vjohn82]

That is most reassuring DD, I would certainly like to take you up on that offer (or another CAG buddy if you're too far away), if I do have to go to court. Thank you.

 

Good luck whatever you decide to do Massmum

[Massamum]

Good luck whatever you decide to do Massmum

 

Thanks VJ. Still have no idea what to do though!!!

[Massamum]

here is the letter folks.

[diddydicky]

thanks Vint. The doc consists of six separate pages and doesn't refer to any other page numbers anywhere within the doc, but there is a barcode which has the agreement number on it which appears on each page.

 

I'm getting seriously confused (my own fault as I have started threads all over the place instead of sticking to one and keep getting lost!), on another thread I posted (here) B3rty said the agreement is enforceable.

 

Help!

 

I have looked at your agreement,

 

i am more versed with credit cards than fixed loans, however IMO whilst i accept that the pages one and two should be front and reverse i t is my feeling that this would be accepted by a court as a binding agreement.

 

are you in arrears? how much is outstanding, what is your credit rating like? does it matter if adverse info is put on your credit file?

Edited October 28, 2009 by diddydicky

[diddydicky]

If this is the case... then I have yet to see case law for it.

 

The regs are quite clear what has to be between the heading "Credit Agreement Regulated under the Consumer Credit Act 1974" and the signature box.

 

I think that's all that needs to be said... I'll let the 1983/1553 regs speak for themselves.

 

the reference to "four corners of an agreement " is not correct

 

contained within the "four corners of the signature document" is the correct terminology and is crucially very different from the former.

[Massamum]

I have looked at your agreement,

 

i am more versed with credit cards than fixed loans, however IMO whilst i accept that the pages one and two should be front and reverse i t is my feeling that this would be accepted by a court as a binding agreement.

 

are you in arrears?

 

Thanks DD, sadly I think you're right that a court would enforce it. I would like to reclaim the PPI but as I made a claim on it (and Lloyds paid out), I'm not sure where I would stand. I still have an awful lot of reading to do!!!

 

I am seriously in arrears and have been since about July 08, they issued DN October 08, I'm very very surprised they haven't taken action sooner to be honest.

[diddydicky]

Thanks DD, sadly I think you're right that a court would enforce it. I would like to reclaim the PPI but as I made a claim on it (and Lloyds paid out), I'm not sure where I would stand. I still have an awful lot of reading to do!!!

 

I am seriously in arrears and have been since about July 08, they issued DN October 08, I'm very very surprised they haven't taken action sooner to be honest.

 

ahhhhhhhh post up the DN please Minus personal info but leave the dates on

 

did you say you are paying one pound a month? are you paying interest or is it frozen

 

are you a homeowner (pm this info)

[diddydicky]

Thanks DD, sadly I think you're right that a court would enforce it. I would like to reclaim the PPI but as I made a claim on it (and Lloyds paid out), I'm not sure where I would stand. I still have an awful lot of reading to do!!!

 

I am seriously in arrears and have been since about July 08, they issued DN October 08, I'm very very surprised they haven't taken action sooner to be honest.

 

i have to say i just don't know the answer to the PPI question but my gut instinct tells me that the judge would consider it a major **** Take on your part if you challenged th PPI having already claimed on it and IMO it would put his back up against you from the off if it got to court

[Massamum]

Have pm'd you with this info DD, sent the message before I had a chance to say thanks very much for your help.

[diddydicky]

thanks, i am responding on open forum so that any advice i give can be challenged/corrected if i get it wrong and so that others can learn from the case

 

I would say that if you are paying one pound a month and the debt is NOT increasing then i would be inclined to let sleeping dogs lie- if it has increased then there is no point in continuing to pay the pound as you are getting deeper into debt not out of it and it might be worthwhile taking another tack

 

there are various options such as asking for a reduction in the debt in return for increased payments to clear it sooner, it all really depends on your overall finances as they cant get blood out of a stone and i guess it is costing them more in administration to collect the one pounds than it is worth

 

(however the DN might throw up something intersting)

[diddydicky]

I think people are foolish going into court under the premise that they will be successful. Philosophically speaking, nothing I know of is 100% certain.

 

You will have to post the letter they have sent you for us to pass comment. I would chance my arm in court with this unless it will cause you significant distress of course... I mean do you have anything to lose?

 

I take a renegade position because I have nothing a creditor could take away and no wages to be docked...

 

 

I only just noticed your first sentence- what a totally peverse stance to take-

 

I see no point whatsoever in going to court if you DONT think you will be sucesfull

 

people would be far more foolish to go to court in the expectation that they will not win

[Massamum]

Thanks. Sadly I'm not in a position to offer more than the £1 as I'm on benefits. The debt is increasing but only by a very small amount, I think as they are now demanding the full balance there isn't much point in restarting the £1. I agree it does look bad going down the PPI reclaim route but I really don't know what else I can do, the agreement's enforceable and I have no way of paying it until I can get back to work. DN on its way.

[diddydicky]

Thanks. Sadly I'm not in a position to offer more than the £1 as I'm on benefits. The debt is increasing but only by a very small amount, I think as they are now demanding the full balance there isn't much point in restarting the £1. I agree it does look bad going down the PPI reclaim route but I really don't know what else I can do, the agreement's enforceable and I have no way of paying it until I can get back to work. DN on its way.

 

your bargaining position is a lot stronger than you think- ill have a look at the DN tomorrow then i think we need to look (privately if you wish) at your total I & E and work out your disposable income and what the threats to your assets are- but it looks favourable at the moment from where i am looking

 

dick

[Massamum]

your bargaining position is a lot stronger than you think- ill have a look at the DN tomorrow then i think we need to look (privately if you wish) at your total I & E and work out your disposable income and what the threats to your assets are- but it looks favourable at the moment from where i am looking

 

dick

really? that'd be great. DN very nearly uploaded so will be on here for tomorrow. I won't be online til the afternoon as I have an appointment early part of the day. Thanks for all your help tonight Dick, most appreciated.

[Massamum]

default notice is below

 

page 1

page 2

 

thanks.

[Redfish]

Massamum

 

This may give you some hope. Look at your agreement carefully. There is no term stating the 'Amount of Credit'. These words must be used. Instead you have 'loan amount', 'loan for loan protection insurance', 'total loan'. You have no figure which is definitively labelled 'amount of credit'.

 

We have challenged a loan on the basis that the term used was 'cash advance' instead of 'amount of credit. The loan company (MBNA) must have realised we have a strong enough case to argue, because they are now trying to offer a full and final settlement of 50% (we are not taking it up though). You are in a better position than us as we did not even have PPI added to the credit amount, we only had one figure for 'cash advance'.

 

I wouldn't pay the £1 anyway, you will never have the debt become statute barred - it's best to stop paying and let them take you to court. I will post you the wording of our letter if you want to take the route we did.

[vjohn82]

I only just noticed your first sentence- what a totally peverse stance to take-

 

I see no point whatsoever in going to court if you DONT think you will be sucesfull

 

people would be far more foolish to go to court in the expectation that they will not win

 

Peverse???

 

You said this "people would be far more foolish to go to court in the expectation that they will not win"

 

Read what I said again... and then again... and then again... it's clear you do not understand it properly.

 

I have seen it time and time again on this forum where people have walked into a court EXPECTING to be SUCCESSFUL or EXPECTING to WIN but then been let down by the system in some way.

 

It is NOT the same as saying that people should go to court not expecting to win.

 

Far better to go into court very well prepared with no expectations either way and then let the system decide who puts the best case forward... sometimes people act on here as if they are the judge and that the court will accept their arguments as the most convincing ever seen etc etc...

 

Have you ever heard a solicitor/lawyer say "we will definitely win this"??? They always say... "wa have a good case"... that's the best anyone can do before going into court and the evidence on this entire forum suggests this is the case also.

 

I would use the SI 1983/1553 on this credit agreement and make sure every word matches what they state should be in there... any deviation, in my mind, renders the agreement unenforceable IMHO.

[vjohn82]

default notice is below

 

page 1

page 2

 

thanks.

 

DN doesn't have date of service on it but I suspect it looks ok in every other respect.

[vjohn82]

the reference to "four corners of an agreement " is not correct

 

contained within the "four corners of the signature document" is the correct terminology and is crucially very different from the former.

 

Here is the SI 1983/1553 pg 3 under "Form and content of regulated consumer credit agreements"

 

(4) Subject to paragraphs (5) and (9) below, the information, statements of the protection and remedies, signature and

separate boxes which this regulation requires documents embodying regulated consumer credit agreements to contain,

shall be set out in the order given by paragraphs (a) to (f) below under, where applicable, the headings specified below--

(a) the nature of the agreement as set out in paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to these Regulations;

(b) the parties to the agreement as set out in paragraph 2 of Schedule 1 to these Regulations;

[© under the heading "Key Financial Information", the financial and related particulars set out in paragraphs 6 to

8B, 11 to 14 and 15 to 17 of Schedule 1 to these Regulations;]

(d) under the heading "Other Financial Information", the financial and related particulars set out in paragraphs 3 to 5,

9, 10, 14A and 18 to 19A of Schedule 1 to these regulations;

(e) under the heading "Key Information"--

(i) the information set out in paragraphs 20 to 24 of Schedule 1 to these Regulations; and

(ii) the statements of protection and remedies set out in Schedule 2 to these Regulations; and

(f) the signature box and, where applicable, the separate box required by paragraph (7)(b) below;

 

and such information, statements of protection and remedies, signature and separate boxes shall be shown together as a

whole and shall not be preceded by any information apart from trade names, logos or the reference number of the agreement or interspersed with any other information or wording apart from subtotals of total amounts and cross references to the terms of the agreement.

 

If I am reading this right this should mean the prescribed terms appear on the same piece of paper as the signature box.

 

I'm willing to be proved wrong though to increase my own understanding.

 

Cheers

[diddydicky]

default notice is below

 

page 1

page 2

 

thanks.

 

if the DN was posted 2nd class (as is likely) it is defective as they did not give you sufficient time to remedy the alleged breach (quote apart from what redfish is saying)

 

now then, i dont suppose you kept the envelope?

 

if not get a SAR off the them right away so that we can see what their comms logs have to offer

 

in the meantime, if they are threatening legal action - just sit back and wait.

 

ill get in touch with you later about your I & E's

[diddydicky]

Peverse???

 

You said this "people would be far more foolish to go to court in the expectation that they will not win"

 

Read what I said again... and then again... and then again... it's clear you do not understand it properly.

 

I have seen it time and time again on this forum where people have walked into a court EXPECTING to be SUCCESSFUL or EXPECTING to WIN but then been let down by the system in some way.

 

It is NOT the same as saying that people should go to court not expecting to win.

 

Far better to go into court very well prepared with no expectations either way and then let the system decide who puts the best case forward... sometimes people act on here as if they are the judge and that the court will accept their arguments as the most convincing ever seen etc etc...

 

Have you ever heard a solicitor/lawyer say "we will definitely win this"??? They always say... "wa have a good case"... that's the best anyone can do before going into court and the evidence on this entire forum suggests this is the case also.

 

I would use the SI 1983/1553 on this credit agreement and make sure every word matches what they state should be in there... any deviation, in my mind, renders the agreement unenforceable IMHO.

 

whatever!!

[vjohn82]

whatever!!

 

Sorry but I took exception to you stating my comments were perverse.

[diddydicky]

it basically sets out the order in which the information should appear in the document- for instance (as i said in an earlier post) it is not acceptable for the prescribed terms of the agreement to be "buried" in the overall terms and conditions

 

it is designed so that when signing the signator has clear sight of the prescribed terms of the agreement

 

With respect, i think you are misinterpreting the meaning of "document", and "signature page" and coming up with the wrong conclusion that all of this must be on one single piece of paper".

 

ideally yes perhaps- but legally No (not yet anyway)