Lloyds CCA - is it enforceable?

[Massamum]

I'd be grateful if anyone could tell me if this CCA is enforceable? Has my details and signature on. Thanks.

 

Lloyds CCA

terms and conditions

[diddydicky]

it's totally unreadable but even so i cant see any heading on either document that says it is a credit card agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974 so that alone would make it not properly executed but you need to post it up in a readable form

 

ps if the copy YOU have is not " easily legible" then it does not comly with the lenders obligations if you have requested it under sects 78

[diddydicky]

well on second look maybe the T & C's do have a heading there but its hard to see

[babybear39]

Use the following as a basis of your letter courtesy of pt:

 

Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents)

Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557)

 

Quote:

2 Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms

 

(1) The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily

distinguishable from the .

(2) The wording of any Form prescribed by these Regulations shall be reproduced in copies of unexecuted or executed

agreements or in Notices of Cancellation Rights sent [by an appropriate method] under section 64(1)(b) or (2) of the Act

without any alteration or addition, except that--

(a) the creditor or owner may enter the name and address of the debtor or hirer in any Cancellation Form prescribed

by these Regulations; and

(b) every Form shall be completed in accordance with any footnote.

(3) Any such footnote shall not be treated as part of any Form prescribed by these Regulations and may be reproduced

in addition to any such Form.

(4) Where any such footnote requires any words to be omitted, those words shall be omitted or deleted.

[Massamum]

Thanks for your responses.

 

Yes DD, the print on the copies is so small its ridiculous. I just about managed to read the first page with the aid of a magnifying glass. I’ve typed the wording up below, nowhere does it mention credit card agreement, only credit agreement. Also under personal data and info it mentions this application in paras 3 and 4, is that significant do you think?

 

 

 

The second page is unreadable, even with a magnifying glass, except for the first heading which again states credit agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. So I will be sending off your letter Babybear, thanks for that.

 

 

 

Strangely enough, along with the CCA request they also sent me a seven page typed document headed credit card agreement, outlining the conditions of the agreement, it has my name and address on it. I have never seen this before, not sure if it would be the current terms and conditions. I’ll try and scan it up later if that helps.

 

In the meantime, here are extracts from the 1st page:

 

The paragraph under “Reply by 13 Feb” reads

CREDIT AGREEMENT REGULATED BY THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974. By signing this agreement you will be confirming that the information given below is true and complete and that you are not less than 18 years of age ….

 

At the bottom of the 1st page

DECLARATION AND AUTHORISATION

This Agreement is subject to the Lloyds bank Mastercard conditions of use as set out overleaf. To be considered for a Lloyds bank Mastercard account you must sign in the box to the right.

PERSONAL DATA AND INFORMATION

1. We, Lloyds Bank plc may use the details given and other information about you which we receive to provide you with our services. We may share information with other financial organizations to protect both ourselves and our customers against fraud.

2. If you cease to be our customer we will retain your records no longer than necessary. You have a right of access to any records about you which we hold on our computer files under the Data Protection act 1984.

3. Lending is subject to assessment of your financial position and we may pass details from this application to obtain a reference from a credit reference agency (the agency may make a record for future references). If we do not receive full payment of satisfactory proposals within 28 days of a formal demand for repayment, we may disclose this fact to credit reference agencies.

4. We may disclose details of the account to anyone acting for us in connection with the issue or use of the card. If any insurance is to be taken in connection with this application we may also pass to the insurers any information about you which they require to arrange cover or process claims.

 

Grateful for any input folks. Thanks in advance.

[Massamum]

bump

[diddydicky]

Thanks for your responses.

 

Yes DD, the print on the copies is so small its ridiculous. I just about managed to read the first page with the aid of a magnifying glass. I’ve typed the wording up below, nowhere does it mention credit card agreement, only credit agreement. Also under personal data and info it mentions this application in paras 3 and 4, is that significant do you think?

 

 

 

The second page is unreadable, even with a magnifying glass, except for the first heading which again states credit agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. So I will be sending off your letter Babybear, thanks for that.

 

 

 

Strangely enough, along with the CCA request they also sent me a seven page typed document headed credit card agreement, outlining the conditions of the agreement, it has my name and address on it. I have never seen this before, not sure if it would be the current terms and conditions. I’ll try and scan it up later if that helps.

 

In the meantime, here are extracts from the 1st page:

 

The paragraph under “Reply by 13 Feb” reads

CREDIT AGREEMENT REGULATED BY THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974. By signing this agreement you will be confirming that the information given below is true and complete and that you are not less than 18 years of age ….

 

At the bottom of the 1st page

DECLARATION AND AUTHORISATION

This Agreement is subject to the Lloyds bank Mastercard conditions of use as set out overleaf. To be considered for a Lloyds bank Mastercard account you must sign in the box to the right.

PERSONAL DATA AND INFORMATION

1. We, Lloyds Bank plc may use the details given and other information about you which we receive to provide you with our services. We may share information with other financial organizations to protect both ourselves and our customers against fraud.

2. If you cease to be our customer we will retain your records no longer than necessary. You have a right of access to any records about you which we hold on our computer files under the Data Protection act 1984.

3. Lending is subject to assessment of your financial position and we may pass details from this application to obtain a reference from a credit reference agency (the agency may make a record for future references). If we do not receive full payment of satisfactory proposals within 28 days of a formal demand for repayment, we may disclose this fact to credit reference agencies.

4. We may disclose details of the account to anyone acting for us in connection with the issue or use of the card. If any insurance is to be taken in connection with this application we may also pass to the insurers any information about you which they require to arrange cover or process claims.

 

Grateful for any input folks. Thanks in advance.

 

do not bother typing up the other 7 pages they will be the current T & C's and/or a fairytale set of T & C's

 

An application form is just that- however if it contains the prescribed terms within its " 4 corners" ( and that is taken to mean the reverse side of the Same document) is signed by both parties (which should be impossible if it is an application form!) and is headed and set out correctly then it can be regarded as a credit agreement!

 

it is UNLIKELY that the prescribed terms were on the back .

 

as it stands with an incorrect heading and no creditor sisgnature it is "improperly executed" and as such can only be enforced by order of a court.

 

if it is missing the prescribed terms then a court is prevented from ruling on it (making it enforceable)

 

Many companies- in sending the photocopies to you will photocopy on the back of the application form what was NOT actually on the back at the time.

[diddydicky]

sorry forgot to say the that the fact that what they sent you in response to your sect 78 request is not "easily legible" puts them in default and they may not take any enforcement action, add charges or pass the account to anyone else to chase on their behalf.

 

simply send them the letter from the letters templates that covers receipt of defective information, recorded delivery and then do absolutely nothing until they do supply what was requested.

[Massamum]

Thanks very much for your help here BB and DD.

 

I have put together a bit of a letter including bits of the template, pt's and also some of Ida in Fife's letter from another thread and added a bit of my own. Not sure if I've got it right or not. Would you be able to have a read and advise if ok folks. Thanks in advance.

 

Account in dispute

Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for your response to my request under the Consumer Credit Act section 78. You state this is a true copy of the original agreement executed by yourselves and that you have satisfied your obligations under section 78.

The Consumer Credit Act 1974 demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. However, the copy received by me does not fulfill your requirements under the Act and my request remains outstanding.

An illegible credit agreement, as per the one sent in your reply, does not constitute a true copy of any credit agreement that may or may not have been signed by me on the opening of this account. An illegible agreement does not give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’.

I would draw your attention to the following in this regard:

“Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents)

Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557)

Quote:

2 Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms

(1) The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily distinguishable from the .

(2) The wording of any Form prescribed by these Regulations shall be reproduced in copies of unexecuted or executed agreements or in Notices of Cancellation Rights sent [by an appropriate method] under section 64(1)(b) or (2) of the Act without any alteration or addition, except that—

(a) the creditor or owner may enter the name and address of the debtor or hirer in any Cancellation Form prescribed by these Regulations; and

(b) every Form shall be completed in accordance with any footnote.

(3) Any such footnote shall not be treated as part of any Form prescribed by these Regulations and may be reproduced in addition to any such Form.

(4) Where any such footnote requires any words to be omitted, those words shall be omitted or deleted.”

I still require you to send me a true copy of the original credit agreement, that you allege exists, in legible form.

As you must realise this agreement does not conform to sections 60(1) and 61(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and would therefore only be enforceable by a court under section 65.

The absence of any legible prescribed terms means that a court would be prevented from enforcing it under section 127(3).

I am granting to you a further 21 days to produce a copy of a legible executable agreement. After that I will consider that the above account is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt.

After this period you should close the file and cease processing any personal data relating to me on this matter.

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with a legible copy of the document I have requested. Whilst you remain in default of my request, you are not permitted to take any action against this account. This includes adding further charges and passing any information to the credit reference agencies.

I expect you to write to me confirming that the account has been closed and no further action will be taken.

I look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully

[diddydicky]

Thanks very much for your help here BB and DD.

 

I have put together a bit of a letter including bits of the template, pt's and also some of Ida in Fife's letter from another thread and added a bit of my own. Not sure if I've got it right or not. Would you be able to have a read and advise if ok folks. Thanks in advance.

 

Account in dispute

Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for your response to my request under the Consumer Credit Act section 78. You state this is a true copy of the original agreement executed by yourselves and that you have satisfied your obligations under section 78.

The Consumer Credit Act 1974 demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. However, the copy received by me does not fulfill your requirements under the Act and my request remains outstanding.

An illegible credit agreement, as per the one sent in your reply, does not constitute a true copy of any credit agreement that may or may not have been signed by me on the opening of this account. An illegible agreement does not give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’.

I would draw your attention to the following in this regard:

“Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents)

Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557)

Quote:

2 Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms

(1) The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily distinguishable from the .

(2) The wording of any Form prescribed by these Regulations shall be reproduced in copies of unexecuted or executed agreements or in Notices of Cancellation Rights sent [by an appropriate method] under section 64(1)(b) or (2) of the Act without any alteration or addition, except that—

(a) the creditor or owner may enter the name and address of the debtor or hirer in any Cancellation Form prescribed by these Regulations; and

(b) every Form shall be completed in accordance with any footnote.

(3) Any such footnote shall not be treated as part of any Form prescribed by these Regulations and may be reproduced in addition to any such Form.

(4) Where any such footnote requires any words to be omitted, those words shall be omitted or deleted.”

I still require you to send me a true copy of the original credit agreement, that you allege exists, in legible form.

As you must realise this agreement does not conform to sections 60(1) and 61(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and would therefore only be enforceable by a court under section 65.

The absence of any legible prescribed terms means that a court would be prevented from enforcing it under section 127(3).

I am granting to you a further 21 days to produce a copy of a legible executable agreement. After that I will consider that the above account is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt.

After this period you should close the file and cease processing any personal data relating to me on this matter.

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with a legible copy of the document I have requested. Whilst you remain in default of my request, you are not permitted to take any action against this account. This includes adding further charges and passing any information to the credit reference agencies.

I expect you to write to me confirming that the account has been closed and no further action will be taken.

I look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully

 

personally i would keep it short and sweet like:_

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your response to my request under the Consumer Credit Act section 78.

 

The documents you have sent me do not fulfil your obligations under the act by virtue of the fact that they are not easily legible, in fact they are not legible at all.

 

I would draw your attention to the following

 

“Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents)

Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557) Regulation 2

 

2 Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms

(1)*The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily distinguishable from the .

 

 

On XXXXXXX I made a formal request to you under sect 78 of the Consumer Credit Act

 

The time for you to comply was XXXXXXX (2 working days after posting +12)

 

You are now in default and the account is in dispute

 

Until I receive the required documents in an easily legible form you will continue to be in default

 

 

Y F

 

 

but its only advice!

[diddydicky]

PS i always head my letters

 

dear Sirs

 

Your Ref XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx - Account in Dispute

 

it may be a mute point but i never refer to "account number" as by this stage i don't recognise that i have a valid account with them

[Massamum]

absolutely brill DD. Thank you very much for making that so much clearer, short, sweet and straight to the point - more impact than mine. Will be sending that off today.

 

Will post back when reply received.

[diddydicky]

you're welcome

[Massamum]

Have received a "final response" from Lloyds to my letter. They don't agree with my complaint. They say they have no obligation to supply me with the docs under s78 but because they are so wonderful they did so . They also reckon because I've been using the account for a long time that it means I've acknowledged the debt. Oh yes, and they say the agreement contains all of the prescribed terms (even though I can't read any of it). Any ideas on what I should be doing now folks? Thanks in advance.

[Massamum]

also Lloyds have defaulted on their SAR which was sent to them early May - any advice please?

[vint1954]

Have received a "final response" from Lloyds to my letter. They don't agree with my complaint. They say they have no obligation to supply me with the docs under s78 but because they are so wonderful they did so . They also reckon because I've been using the account for a long time that it means I've acknowledged the debt. Oh yes, and they say the agreement contains all of the prescribed terms (even though I can't read any of it). Any ideas on what I should be doing now folks? Thanks in advance.

What they do have to supply, is what DD suggested back in June. A legible copy of an agreement.

 

This is between 2 parties, signed by both, so in general, applications cannot be agreements.

 

You need to respond to them, requiring them to comply with your CCA request.

 

It matters not if you acknowledge a debt. What you are questioning are the terms surrounding an agreement. You may have already paid that off several times.

 

You could try a letter something like the one below.

 

ACCOUNT REMAINS IN SERIOUS DISPUTE

xxxxxxxxxxxxx 2009.

Dear xxxxxxx,

Re account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I am in receipt of your letter date xxxxxxxxxxxxxx and note its contents.

I note, that xxxxxxxx are still in breach of supplying the documentation that I have previously requested under s78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, in that xxxxxx have yet to supply a legible executed agreement. To date, all that you have supplied under this request, is an illegible copy of a reconstructed application form. As you are aware, application forms do not satisfy the criteria laid down for an agreement.

In relation to what constitutes a true copy, please read the details below. In a recent letter from the enforcement department of the OFT, the text below was quoted, explaining what is required.

“The copy of the executed agreement need not be an exact copy but it must be a ‘true copy’ and not some reconstruction of what the original might have been and it must contain the same terms as the original. Where the terms have been varied as provided for within the agreement, the copy of the original agreement must be accompanied by a document setting out the current terms, as varied. Certain details may be omitted from the original agreement eg the signature but the debtor must be in no doubt as to the true nature of his obligations under the loan.

 

Should no original agreement be in existence it is very hard to say that the copy the creditor offers to the debtor is, in fact, a true copy as there would be no original with which to compare it. In our view the onus of proof would be on the creditor to show that the copy is a true one and where none existed he may have difficulty discharging this. Neither should creditors suggest that a consumer has signed a credit agreement where they are unable to provide evidence to support this — to do so is likely to be a misleading action under Regulation 5 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (the CPRs) and would also constitute an unfair or improper business practice.”

 

I am now granting to you a further 7 days to produce a true copy of any executableagreement. After that I will consider that the above matter is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt. If you are insisting that the non enforceable reconstructed Application form with added Terms and Conditions that you have supplied, is the only alleged agreement in your possession, then I would suggest that the best course of action would be to immediately set the balance of the above account number to zero.

You must also consider this letter as notice under s10 of the Data Protection Act, to cease processing my data. All entries which refer to missed payments be removed from my credit file All collection activities cease with immediate effect until you comply with my request from xxxxxxxxx or such time as a court makes an enforcement order.

 

I would take this opportunity to remind you, that you have yet to supply any documentation in relation to my Subject Access Request.

Yours sincerely

[vint1954]

also Lloyds have defaulted on their SAR which was sent to them early May - any advice please?

Have they sent you a Default Notice or Termination notice yet?

[Massamum]

thanks very much for that Vint, letter is brill, will get that off asap. I received a default notice, will scan and post up as soon as I can.

[babybear39]

Report them to the ICO for flaunting the timescales for SAR.

[Massamum]

thanks BB, I'll do that too.

[Massamum]

here is the default notice I received from Lloyds a few months back. It was sent on 24th Dec (merry xmas) but no idea when I received it as that was back in the days before CAG. With all the bank holidays I'm not sure they've allowed me enough time to rectify the breach anyway. Perhaps someone could have a look for me please? Thanks.

 

page 1 Lloyds default notice

page 2 Lloyds default notice

Edited August 9, 2009 by Massamum
forgot to attach default!

[vint1954]

here is the default notice I received from Lloyds a few months back. It was sent on 24th Dec (merry xmas) but no idea when I received it as that was back in the days before CAG. With all the bank holidays I'm not sure they've allowed me enough time to rectify the breach anyway. Perhaps someone could have a look for me please? Thanks.

 

page 1 Lloyds default notice

page 2 Lloyds default notice

It looks like they could be deficient by a day or two. Did you have the envelope?

 

25th & 26th are bank holidays. 27th & 28th are weekends, so service could be deemed on 30th or 31st, if they posted it on Christmas eve. Does your SAR give a date that it was posted?

[Massamum]

thanks for that Vint. No I didn't keep the envelope, sadly it was back in the days before I knew how important it was to keep them. They have ignored my SAR completely (sent back in May).

[Massamum]

Hi all, here is the response I got to my CCA request on a loan agreement. Grateful if someone could have a look and see if its enforceable. Many thanks.

 

page 1

page 2

page 3

page 4

page 5

page 6

Edited October 11, 2009 by Massamum
typo

[vint1954]

thanks for that Vint. No I didn't keep the envelope, sadly it was back in the days before I knew how important it was to keep them. They have ignored my SAR completely (sent back in May).

Ok,

 

You need to write to them again, chasing up your SAR, Do you know what happened to the £10 that you sent.

 

Mark the letter for the attention of the Data Controller. You will need to sign the letter, but alter your signature in a way that is obvious. Enclose your origonal request letter.

 

You also need to complain to the OFT regarding the lack of SA data. You can do this easily online.