LLoyds TSB CCA ! Any advice please

[LB145]

Received a leter from LLoyds TSB today sending me back my Postal Order for £10 - this was for my SAR originaly sent on 16th June 2009 - I had received a very small pile of documents back in August??? they are requesting an up to date signature and they will reopen my file???

[Capricorn1601]

Dont trust them

[vint1954]

Just go back to them and insist that they supply the documentation requested. They are way over the time limit and have partially supplied the SAR, so have no grounds to refuse.

 

Also time for a report to the ICO.

[LB145]

Just go back to them and insist that they supply the documentation requested. They are way over the time limit and have partially supplied the SAR, so have no grounds to refuse.

 

Also time for a report to the ICO.

 

Thanks Vint for your time, I know you respond t so many threads and are most helpful - I lost track with this as I am not getting notification that there was a response - and the good news is that I got a new keyboard yesterday - so no more pounding on the keys or waiting aimlessly for the thing to function (how sad that a mere thing as a fully functioning keyboard could make me smile! - what has life come to!!!).

 

Have received a couple of letters from Lloyds TSB notifying me that they are not responding to my letters as they they made their "final decision" and yet still no signed CCA agreement - no acknowledgement that this is an official complaint with the FOS!!! - I will do a letter with regard to your last posting. Thx

[LB145]

Received a yellow card from "Allied International Credit (UK) Ltd dated 1st December 2009

 

"Our client has informed us that under their terms and conditions, as Formal Demand has been made, payment of the full outstanding balance must be made immediately.

 

Should you need to discuss your account, please urgently call Mr A Dickey 0141 228 3017

 

Attach payment to this notice and return immediately."

[2001captain]

Have been following this thread with interest and have sent off the stated letter and £1.00 PO requesting the info as suggested. Received my first letter back from Lloyds TSB today identical to LB145 other than it states the following: " As your agreement was made before 19th may 1985 we have no obligation to supply you with a copy of your executed agreement etc etc". Anybody have any thoughts on this

[Capricorn1601]

the word baubles springs to mind

[2001captain]

so 1985 is a load of baloney?

[vint1954]

Have been following this thread with interest and have sent off the stated letter and £1.00 PO requesting the info as suggested. Received my first letter back from Lloyds TSB today identical to LB145 other than it states the following: " As your agreement was made before 19th may 1985 we have no obligation to supply you with a copy of your executed agreement etc etc". Anybody have any thoughts on this

That is correct, they only need supply a reconstruction for very old accounts.

 

However, if the terms have markedly changed over the years, new account number etc, you can argue that it is the new agreement that you require.

[2001captain]

thanks Vint. Therefore if I send the 2nd letter after 12 working days asking again for a copy of the signed agreement what i think you are saying is i won't get one, and they are not obliged to provide one. As to the account i don't know if the account number has changed over the years, i don't even remember when i signed up with LloydsTSB. What would you advise as to the best course of action. By the way all they sent me was a copy of their T&Cs they did not include as per their letter a signed statement of my account

[vint1954]

No they will not have to send you one.

 

You can alter the second letter, putting the account in dispute as they need to send you the T&C's from the time that you opened the account and an up to date signed statement of the account. If they have not provided these, then they are still in breach of s78.

 

The original T&C's are important as there may not be a clause stateing that they can alter the agreement.

 

Be polite in the dispute letter so as not to alert them to any issue at this stage.

 

I would be inclined to send an SAR off to them, marked for the attention of the Data Controller. The letter that you need to send is below, however check it through to ensure that all sections are relevant to your situation, for example you may not have been defaulted so that para would not be relevant. The SAR should throw up any changes to the account or if it was transferred to another number.

 

A subject access request which is an alternative to one being made for a charge reclaim. Geared more towards

debt collection...You should send a £10 postal order with each one and address it to the Data Controller at each company (send recorded or guaranteed) they have to respond in 40 days

 

 

 

Data Protection Act 1998

 

 

 

Subject Access Request

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Please supply me with all data that you hold on me. This includes in particular, but is not limited to, the following:-

 

1. The original signed, executed credit agreement/s and any terms and conditions that applied to the account/s at the time of default and at the time the account/s was/were opened.

2. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with ORIGINAL CREDITOR. - delete or add this depending on whether you are sending this to the original creditor/or a debt collection agency

 

3. True copies of any notice of assignment and default notices or enforcement notice that you/or name of the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

 

4. Documents relating to any insurance added to the account/s, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date/s they were/ it was added and deleted. (if applicable).

 

5. Details of any collection charges added to the account/s; specifically, the date they were/it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was/charges were calculated, and what the charge covers/charges cover.

 

6. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account/these accounts and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

 

7. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

 

8. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

 

9. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement/s.

 

10.Termination notices

 

PLEASE NOTE that unless otherwise stated by yourselves and if the above documents are NOT provided, it will be CONFIRMED that you are unable to reproduce/provide in any way shape or form any copies of the above requested documents. You are reminded that you have a duty to inform me if you do not have the above documents. This is confirmed in High Court Law - Ezsias v Welsh Ministers - [2007] All ER (D) 65 (Dec)

 

You are reminded that you are obliged to supply all the above documents in line with the Information Commissioners Technical Guidance update (Dated August 2007)

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply.

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

sign your name but put crosses through it so it can't be 'lifted'

[2001captain]

Thanks Vint

[2001captain]

I also have an interesting experience with MBNA and the documents sent to me if anybody wants to discuss

[LB145]

Received a yellow card from "Allied International Credit (UK) Ltd dated 1st December 2009

 

"Our client has informed us that under their terms and conditions, as Formal Demand has been made, payment of the full outstanding balance must be made immediately.

 

Should you need to discuss your account, please urgently call Mr A Dickey 0141 228 3017

 

Attach payment to this notice and return immediately."

 

Yesterday answered the phone man asked for my husband and said that he is from AIC, told him husband not in and he said that he must call urgently as he wrote to him in December and I may not be aware of my husbands financial affairs! I checked and we (husband) responded with the "in dispute with your client ...no CCA... etc this was send recorded o the 7th Dec and was signed for on 17th December - someone is not reading their in tray or just ignoring it??? - Do I send another?

[2001captain]

did you send your letter recorded delivery if so have you checked on the royal mail website that it was delivered. the barcode number on your receipt should enable you to check delivery status

[LB145]

Oh yes - always send Recorded - have printed off a copy of the Proof of Delivery on the Royal site - signed for the the 17th December 2009!

[vint1954]

Just send them a letter stating that you are dissapointed that they have not responded to your letter dated xxxx, sent recorded delivery, signed for xxx. I assume that this is an oversight on your part and that you are not just ignoring my communications.

[LB145]

CHEers Vint -keyboard playing up again -taking hours to type!

[LB145]

Phone call again for husband from AIC - told them not in and they said that they keep writing to him and he is not responding - once again told him we have proof that they have recieved correspondence from my husband!

[scrambledbyegg]

A new company has started chasing this now, Robinson Way Limited. I sent LTSB a Subject Access Request, and eventually they responded. The only relevant documents were the same copies that they sent under the CCA.lloydscc.pdf

 

I told this to RWL who have now replied saying "we are satisfied that the documentation provided is sufficient to demonstrate liability and we will not enter into repetitive correspondence regarding this. ..We require your payment proposals within 14 days."

 

I don't believe that the above supplied under CCA and now Subject Access Request (i.e. there is no signed agreement) is enforceable. I was intending to reply with teh following letter, any thoughts?

 

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY

 

ACCOUNT IN SERIOUS DISPUTE

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

Further to my request under the above act, your attention is drawn to the fact that this account is subject to a serious dispute. On 18th November 2008, I requested that Lloyds TSB supply me a copy of the executed credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78. To date they and their respective agents have failed to comply with my request. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to you, nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

For the avoidance of any doubt I have included section 78(1) and 78(6) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which states…

 

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing ( 12 working days + 2 ) to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of £1, shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

Clearly as no agreement has been supplied on request, you have not complied with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and I now draw your attention to section 78 subsection 6 which states If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

These include below, the relevant main points of the Law and OFT regulations while the account is in dispute and Lloyds TSB remain in default.

 

• LLOYDS TSB/Robinson Way Ltd may not ask for payment against this account.

• I am not obliged to offer any payment against this account.

• LLOYDS TSB/ Robinson Way Ltd cannot register any data with a third party.

• LLOYDS TSB/ Robinson Way Ltd cannot take any enforcement action, including registering Defaults.

• LLOYDS TSB/ Robinson Way Ltd cannot pass the account on to a third party for collection.

• LLOYDS TSB/ Robinson Way Ltd cannot sell the account.

 

What is required of a true copy.

 

In a recent letter from the enforcement department of the OFT, the text below was quoted, explaining what is required.

 

“The copy of the executed agreement need not be an exact copy but it must be a ‘true copy’ and not some reconstruction of what the original might have been and it must contain the same terms as the original. Where the terms have been varied as provided for within the agreement, the copy of the original agreement must be accompanied by a document setting out the current terms, as varied. Certain details may be omitted from the original agreement eg the signature but the debtor must be in no doubt as to the true nature of his obligations under the loan.

 

Should no original agreement be in existence it is very hard to say that the copy the creditor offers to the debtor is, in fact, a true copy as there would be no original with which to compare it. In our view the onus of proof would be on the creditor to show that the copy is a true one and where none existed he may have difficulty discharging this. Neither should creditors suggest that a consumer has signed a credit agreement where they are unable to provide evidence to support this — to do so is likely to be a misleading action under Regulation 5 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (the CPRs) and would also constitute an unfair or improper business practice.”

 

 

I refer you also to the information below.

 

1. A valid credit agreement must contain certain terms within the signature document (s.60(1)(2) CCA 1974). These core terms are the credit limit, repayment terms and the rate of interest (SI 1983/1553 (6 Signing of agreement) which states that the prescribed terms must be within the signature document. (Column 2 schedule 6). s.61(1)(a) states the agreement must contain all the prescribed terms and be signed by both the debtor and on behalf of the creditor.

 

 

2. Further, s.127(3) CCA 1974 makes the account unenforceable if it is not in the proper form and content or improperly executed.

 

In Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd (2007) it was stated “In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties … and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s.61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement”.

 

2. The need for prescribed terms to be contained in the credit agreement is confirmed by the Author of the CCA1974 act, I quote ““As the draftsman of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 I would like to thank Dr Richard Lawson for his interesting and well-argued article (30 August 2003) on Wilson v First County Trust Ltd [2003] UKHL 40, [2003] 4 All ER 97.

 

 

Dr Lawson may be interested to know that I included the provision in question (section 127(3)) entirely on my own initiative. It seemed right to me that if the creditor company couldn’t be bothered to ensure that all the prescribed particulars were accurately included in the credit agreement it deserved to find it unenforceable, and that the court should not have power to relieve it from this penalty. Nobody queried this, and it went through Parliament without debate. I’m glad the House of Lords has now vindicated my reasoning and confirmed that nobody’s human rights were infringed.” - 167 Justice of the Peace (2003) 773.”

 

Clearly this is a situation as described in S.78(6) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the debt is unenforceable at this time. In addition, I now draw your attention to section 127 (3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the consumer credit act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

To clarify S.61(1) states

 

(1)A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

 

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© The document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible

 

In addition the prescribed terms referred to in section 60 CCA1974 are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following—

 

1.Number of repayments;

2.Amount of repayments;

3.Frequency and timing of repayments;

4.Dates of repayments;

5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

 

Therefore based upon the Consumer Credit Act 1974 this debt as it stands is unenforceable and should this proceed to litigation, a court is precluded from making an enforcement order under section 127(3) unless a true copy of the signed agreement is produced.

 

At the point where this account entered into the default situation as described in s78 (6) CCA 1974 no other charges are allowed to be added until such time as you become compliant with my request. As you are still not in compliance with my request I insist that the following takes place with immediate effect.

 

All entries which refer to missed payments be removed from my credit file

All collection activities cease with immediate effect until you comply with my request from 18th November 2008 or such time as a court makes an enforcement order.

In addition, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on Debt Collection

 

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

What I Require.

 

I require that you send me a true signed copy of the executed agreement as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. If you are unable to supply the requested documentation because no such agreement is in existence I require written clarification as such.

 

I am now granting to you a further 7 days to produce a copy of an executable agreement.After that I will consider that the above matter is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt.If you are insisting that the non enforceable document, that you have supplied, is the only alleged agreement in your possession, then I would suggest that the best course of action would be to immediately set the balance of the above account number to zero.

 

I am advised that should you persist in pursuing this debt ignoring the above information you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well.

 

No other correspondence will be accepted

 

Should you attempt litigation it will be vigorously defended and the failure to supply documentation under the CCA 1974 is a complete defence to any legal action and your actions will be vexatious and unlawful

 

I trust this out lines the situation

 

Yours faithfully

lloyds_TC.PDF

[vint1954]

If the reverse of the signed application is as the attachment, truncated, then they have not complied as all of the PT's are not there.

[LB145]

Scrambled Egg - you should start your own thread in the LLoyds TSB section that way you will get personal advice to your situation - otherwise things can get mixed up.

 

I have not received an application form from LLoyds TSB just typed up document from them.

[scrambledbyegg]

Sorry its on here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/196019-lloyd-credit-card-application.html

 

I am guessing the T&Cs are the reverse of the app form, thats all I have received from a CCA and SAR. I know for a fact that no signed CCA exists on this account since I have only ever signed one in relation to a loan which they sent after approving the application with a different lender. Never had a CCA to sign relating to any credit cared ever.

[LB145]

Sorry its on here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/196019-lloyd-credit-card-application.html

 

I am guessing the T&Cs are the reverse of the app form, thats all I have received from a CCA and SAR. I know for a fact that no signed CCA exists on this account since I have only ever signed one in relation to a loan which they sent after approving the application with a different lender. Never had a CCA to sign relating to any credit cared ever.

 

No need to apologise - just wanted you to get the right help.

[ajs444]

Hi LB145, had postcard this morning from AIC, as I never got CCA not too bothered. Original agreement was 1990 I think.