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    • Hello CAG, Bit of a long post, may want to get a cuppa before starting reading... 😁   So, after being a lurker for many years and trying never to get into a mess with credit cards like i did 20 years ago, i've got myself into a mess with Amex... I've tried being open and honest with them, but now getting the feeling they are messing me around.  Its not a chargecard, but a Nectar Credit Card with them. Took out 2016. Balance is just under £15k as of today, was almost at £17k. Debt still owed by Amex, not been sent to NCO/Arrow etc - YET...    Background (short version): Was all fine with more than min. payment (£500 or so), being made until April 2020 when a number of things reduced my monthly salary from work (mainly, take a pay cut or be made redundant), so I soon quickly realised i needed to tighten my belt quickly.  Phoned Amex, advisor said nothing they could do except Payment Holiday. Was put onto that for 3 months, told that Amex will be in touch at the end to restart payments. I asked about interest being stopped/frozen/reduced - not possible. So agreed to payment holiday to give me breathing space.  3 months came and went, no contact from Amex... No payments made, interest still racking up at around £300 a month...  Rang Amex back (July 2020), we cant do anything today because your in the middle of the statement cycle call back next week. Called back week after, no solution yet (i asked about things i seen on Amex US website = Regain program - basically freeze card, lower interest rate and pay a set amount for 12 months - more about this later) > Not available in UK yet. Want to stay on payment holiday Mister B? I asked if there was any way interest could be stopped as this is making the balance increase and increase. No. Do you want to stay on Payment Holiday? Ok. (Bear in mind, if i came off Payment holiday. Minimum Payment was around £570 per month.  So, stayed on payment holiday... Didnt hear anything from Amex again. Called back up in September 2020. Please call back in October after 10th and we can assit. Called back after October 10, went through loads of stuff, different options etc, was warned that Payment Holiday might not be extended much longer, but now have a program. Worked out with Amex woman that i could pay around £200 per month. But please stop interest - no we cant but we can reduce this down to 9.9APR instead of 23%... . Amex woman said she needed to submit details to 'Seniors' at Amex, please call back next week for update. Called back week after, advised that first Amex woman was wrong and had made mistakes, shouldnt have told me what she had told me, £200 is too low, minimum would be £389 per month for 12 months or account will default. Told Amex woman 2 that couldnt afford it, went through this last time, etc etc. Amex woman 2 went off, came back, £329.74 is mininum they can possbily accept, 12 months at that amount per month and interest would be lowered, but not stopped. If you dont take out this 'Program' then account will default and will be passed to NCO or Arrow (I hate them both).  Went off, tried to get loans etc, all refused. Rang Amex back, reluctantly agreed so i can basically keep credit rating at 'good'.  So, been paying since Nov 2021 @ £329.74.    Letter arrived in December - due to out mess up with moving accounts around whilst on payment holiday, we are going to give you £3074 back. Logged into account, only £30.74 refunded, not £3074. Phoned Amex cos thought it was a joke/mistake - Spoke to some bloke - Oh dont worry, the rest will be applied to account automatically in 7 days. he advised was genuine but then got cut off during call. Called back, spoke to some other bloke, yes, looks genuine but please hold... Came back 10 minutes later. Oh, its a mis-print, your not the only customer to receive one of these. Each should have been £30.74 not £3074. Me = Gutted.    Wrote a letter to Amex saying how dissatisifed i was with general customer service and felt they were incompentant, blah blah etc. Final response received, Complaint partially upheld, heres £150 credit because we were a bit silly, but thats it. IF your still not happy, go to FOS.  Opened a case with FOS... Have basically sent them the complaint letter to them and have had a call from them about this... FOS are backlogged though and will take another 3 months for complaint to be looked at by them.   Let me make this 100% clear, fully admit to owning the debt, yep, ive spent this money (wish I knew what on, cos having got much to show from it - just general stuff and holidays)... Not trying to shirk out of it, trying my best to keep up with re-payments but im really strugglling. After I got paid on 1st APril, after paying all outgoings i had £9.83 left in current account so am having to go into overdraft each month which is just a viscious circle.  I would really like to NOT have to down the default route and trash my credit rating and then have to deal with the morons at NCO / Arrow etc.    Meanwhile, this is where I need the advice of the CAG experts... - Credit Limit increases... These were coming every few months and it was just being upped and upped and upped. Credit limit eventually was stopped at £15,400. Some of the increases I never even received letter for, just noticed when I logged into account. >>>> Would this be a case for irresponsible lending? - Stopping interest - I've read something on FCA site that they reccomend (not policy) that if a customer is put onto a payment holiday then they reccomend freezing interest for customer so the debt doesnt continue to build. I've asked time and time again, Amex just refuse.  >>>> Any tips on how to get Amex to play ball?  - Full & Final/Short settlement I've rung Amex today, told them I might be able to pay it off. Initially they said full balance, i then pushed, they then said they would accept 80% of balance, pushed them a bit more, got it down to 70%. >>> Surprised, and then very surprised they would accept 70%, anyone else think this is a bit odd? Normally they wont budge, or they wont budge from their first offer... Could their be something wrong on account (missing CCA etc?), or do they want rid of me and account as much as I do with them? - Cant really keep going at these £329.74 repayments. Something is going to have to give somewhere. I believe they wont go any lower and they will just default it i send £100 instead of £329 and send it out to NCO/Arrow. This might not be a too bad thing though because this would stop the interest right? Anyone thoughts on this?    Anyone think of anything else I could try with them? Again, its still with Amex, not defaulted or anything yet, yep, its all my own fault, i've spent the money, dont deny that, just feel Amex have took advantage etc.   Many thanks for reading. Any advice is greatly appreicated.   Kr, Mista B.     
    • Ok so we have complained to HMRC but were still no further forward with getting the P45/P60. We need this as DVLA has said they need more proof of who he is before giving him a provisional license.  What more can l do. 
    • Hi All   just looking for some advice. I bought a used Porsche Boxster from one of Marshall motor group’s Audi dealers (can I name them?) recently and was assured that it received a major service in October 2020 in line with the manufacturers requirements. The service book confirms this. The dealer also told me on the phone that they have a 6 month rule with any mot or service being done if due within this period which assured me when making an offer over the phone on the car that it wouldn’t need anything doing for a while as I recall saying that.   However, digging through the receipts post delivery I saw that the service was in fact minor and after calling the specialist who serviced it in Oct both they (Sheepishly) and the invoice confirmed that the car did not receive new spark plugs, an air filter, brake fluid replacement or a new fan belt which have now all fallen due and hence the major service due warning light. Had I not investigated this then the car would have potentially gone another 4 years, so 8 in total without some of these items being done.   i emailed the salesman to ask what they would propose to do. The matter is complicated by my living 450 miles away in Scotland, and 200 from their nearest branch, a Mercedes dealer in the Lake District, so I suggested getting my cheapest local specialist to do the works that have fallen due, however I have received no response.   Whilst I am still within my 30 days i don’t want to reject the car, which is otherwise perfect, but the fact remains that the Audi 150 point check only asks for upcoming mot’s to be checked and not services and surely you wouldn’t buy an approved used car and expect to have the service light come on 2 weeks later and have to spend almost £500 putting it right.   i would really appreciate some advice on next steps and perhaps who to escalate this to. Meantime the car is booked in for 2 weeks time to get the work done at the cheapest reputable place I could find.   Many, many thanks in advance
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    • Hi @BankFodder
      Sorry for only updating you now, but after your guidance with submitting the claim it was pretty straight forward and I didn't want to unnecessarily waste your time. Especially with this guide you wrote here, so many thanks for that
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      In the second call the mediator came back with an offer of the full amount of the phone and postage £146.93, but not the court costs. I said I was not willing to accept this and the mediator came across as a bit irritated that I would not accept this and said I should be flexible. I insisted that the law was on my side and I was willing to take them to court. The mediator went back to Hermes with what I said.
       
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A guide to Charging Orders & Orders for Sale


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It's badly worded (and I think wrong, too!), but my understanding was that the £1000 limit was only for CCA debts? With all other debts still not having any minimum threshold to pursue.

 

 

And if you look here

 

 

http://www.northampton.gov.uk/info/200028/council-tax/96/council-tax-recovery-of-non-payment/8

 

 

this council is laying out it's case to the contrary.

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I've just had a long phone conversation with National Debt Line and realise that the document

from the House Of Commons library is super confusing. Utility companies CAN apply for an order for sale once they have obtained a charge order. I therefore recommend that anyone reading a document from the House Of Commons Library just take it with a pinch of salt.

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You really don't need to worry about orders for sale. Less than .2% of charging orders end up with orders being granted - and that's generally for business-related charges rather than consumer-related debts.

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Quite right Sequenci!

 

 

The trouble is a lot of "official" information regarding CO's fail to highlight the rarity of OFS, especially for consumer debt.

 

 

Hence, the tabloid scare headlines when the £1000 threshold was introduced.

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Thanks for that sequenci. I have been worrying myself stupid for the last two years after my water supplier obtained a charge order for £1870 against my house. I was afraid that I would end up living on the streets. However, once a year the water supplier send me a reminder stating that they may take enforcement action if I don't repay the debt. Does that mean that they could obtain an order for sale and I would be living on the streets?

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The juxstaposition of Charging Orders and Orders For Sale is the prior is extremely easy to obtain, whereas, the latter is extremely difficult to obtain. Judges have virtually no discretion in granting CO's but they have absolute discretion in granting Orders For Sale.

 

 

If your house is your family or sole residence then, no, you won't get an OFS made against you for the amount owed.

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It's interesting when you read the statute - it implies that a court should have a fair amount of jurisdiction:

 

(Charging Orders Act 1979)

 

(5)In deciding whether to make a charging order the court shall consider all the circumstances of the case and, in particular, any evidence before it as to—

(a)the personal circumstances of the debtor, and

(b)whether any other creditor of the debtor would be likely to be unduly prejudiced by the making of the order.

 

I guess there is a far stricter test when it comes to sale orders - and quite rightly so.

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Thanks for that sequenci. I have been worrying myself stupid for the last two years after my water supplier obtained a charge order for £1870 against my house. I was afraid that I would end up living on the streets. However, once a year the water supplier send me a reminder stating that they may take enforcement action if I don't repay the debt. Does that mean that they could obtain an order for sale and I would be living on the streets?

 

Unlikely. If the property is jointly owned and you have children it would be impossible anyway - as there is statute pretty much preventing it. Even regardless, I don't think any judge worth their salt would allow an order for sale for such a small amount of money (in the grand scheme of things).

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It's interesting when you read the statute - it implies that a court should have a fair amount of jurisdiction:

 

(Charging Orders Act 1979)

 

(5)In deciding whether to make a charging order the court shall consider all the circumstances of the case and, in particular, any evidence before it as to—

(a)the personal circumstances of the debtor, and

(b)whether any other creditor of the debtor would be likely to be unduly prejudiced by the making of the order.

 

I guess there is a far stricter test when it comes to sale orders - and quite rightly so.

 

 

I agree and it does make you wonder why there is virtually no resistance from Judges in granting CO's given the above??

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All my children are now adults and live elsewhere. The house is in my name only. My wife disappeared just over two years ago to live with another man. I guess that if the charge order doesn't kill me the impending divorce will. Either way I guess I will end up living on the streets.

Edited by chiefmegawatty
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If the house is in your name only, then the CO will be deducted from your sale proceeds if and when you sell. But (and I'm not diminishing your problems) it does seem a "manageable" amount? Many people on this site have CO's against them for amounts far in excess of your order amount which they have no way of discharging without selling up.

 

 

But as Sequenci has stated, OFS are a rarity and there is strong caselaw opposing such if the house is your primary residence. But I would look to see if there is interest accruing on the debt as it's usually 8% and will stack up if you don't discharge the debt in a reasonable time.

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Thanks for your reply. I have discovered that interest can only be added to charge orders over £5000 so no problem there. The house is my only and primary residence which raises another question in my mind. I own a large plot of land in Wiltshire which is on the land registry in my name. The plot is worth about £30,000. I assume that the water supplier and the county court failed to secure the charge order on my land and stuck it against my house so they could threaten me with being homeless. They could have obtained a charge order

on my land and then obtained an order for sale without having to threaten me with being homeless. I therefore consider water suppliers and County Court Judges to be evil people who want house owners to live on the streets. They had the choice of sticking the charge order on my house or on my land. They chose my house just to be nasty when I have another asset that would easily cover the debt many times over and could be sold without causing distress. Should I ever meet a County Court Judge in public I would be tempted to punch him in the face for being a house owner hating nasty person.

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Irrelevant and argumentative posts removed...please lets keep this civil and on track.

 

Regards

 

Andy

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Thanks for your reply. I have discovered that interest can only be added to charge orders over £5000 so no problem there. The house is my only and primary residence which raises another question in my mind. I own a large plot of land in Wiltshire which is on the land registry in my name. The plot is worth about £30,000. I assume that the water supplier and the county court failed to secure the charge order on my land and stuck it against my house so they could threaten me with being homeless. They could have obtained a charge order

on my land and then obtained an order for sale without having to threaten me with being homeless. I therefore consider water suppliers and County Court Judges to be evil people who want house owners to live on the streets. They had the choice of sticking the charge order on my house or on my land. They chose my house just to be nasty when I have another asset that would easily cover the debt many times over and could be sold without causing distress. Should I ever meet a County Court Judge in public I would be tempted to punch him in the face for being a house owner hating nasty person.

 

 

 

 

Can't you sell the land yourself to settle your debts?

 

Were they aware you owned this land?

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Don't ask about selling the land Ganymede! I had the gall to suggest that and my posts were deleted overnight :-)

 

Yes but its the way you suggested it ...perhaps try a more diplomatic approach in future.

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Yes I suppose I could sell the land to pay the charge order on my house. I assume that the water supply company and the county court judge must have known that I owned land. When they searched the land registry to see if I owned anything to slap a charge order on they would have found my house and my land as they are both on the land registry. Therefore I assume that the courts enforce charge orders deliberately to make house owners homeless despite there being an alternative when the house owner has other assets. I have learned that county court judges won't allow charge orders on house owners who have little equity in their house. I therefore conclude that the judges despise people who have worked hard for decades and bought their house outright. Being an outright house and land owner it's not surprising that I consider county court judges to be evil nasty people.

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The Court have nothing to do with what property is charged. They wouldn't know or care about your land, it's not the Courts concern and is the Claimant's choice but they probably didn't know about your land either unless you told them beforehand.

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It is unlikely that anyone has searched the land registry by name. I doubt anyone knows about this piece of land. Its actually very difficult to search the land registry to find out what property people own without a court order specifically authorising the search. Please refer to http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/public/can-i-search-against-a-persons-name-to-find-out-what-properties-they-own.

 

The judge will not have done any searches. The judge's job is just to decide the application. He would have had no idea you had other land. If you would have preferred them to get a CO over the land instead of your house, you could have offered this during the legal proceedings.

 

I doubt the water company know either. As the land is vacant, the water company would have no problem getting an order for sale if it knows where the land is !!.

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HI, Have a pending money claim court case and if lost expect creditor to stick in a charging order. As debt in my sole name, will wife's beneficial interest in any equity be maintained or will all the equity go to creditor ? Also following directions questionnaire now stayed to 19th Feb, any idea timescale to transfer to local county court & actual court date ( may sell home if we can prior to court).

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HI, Have a pending money claim court case and if lost expect creditor to stick in a charging order. As debt in my sole name, will wife's beneficial interest in any equity be maintained or will all the equity go to creditor ? Also following directions questionnaire now stayed to 19th Feb, any idea timescale to transfer to local county court & actual court date ( may sell home if we can prior to court).

 

 

 

The Charging Order will be registered in the form of a Restriction against your beneficial interest in the property only, not you wife's.

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Thank you steampowered for your reply. Very interesting indeed. I therefore assume that my water supplier searched the land registry using my home address to see if I owned the property. When they discovered that I owned my house, they put the debt in my name even though the water account was in my wife's name, then applied to the court for a CCJ against me and then a charge order. I do wonder why the water supplier didn't obtain a CCJ against my wife because she was the only earner at the time. They could then apply for an attachment to earnings against my wife and recovered the debt by now. Instead they seem to be happy to wait years for their money. Very strange in my opinion. I did phone my water supply company and asked them why they took the action against me rather than against my wife. They said that they weren't prepared to discuss this any further.

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