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    • Hello there,  I would be most grateful for any help or views on a distressing incident that occurred last summer, I can supply more info.  I am a 70 years old retired man and quite severely disabled I use a Mobilty Scooter and walking aids.  I had recently been admitted to hospital with an ongoing heart condition.     I was quite a frequent customer of my local Pub/Restaurant and I had previously submitted several verbal complaints regarding short measures of drinks.  The both managers took exception to this and told me that I was "Never happy until I found something to moan about"  The atmosphere in the Pub generally declined towards myself and I was certainly made to feel unwelcome.  Matters came to a head when I witnessed a dog, inside the Pub, attack a child (A Toddler) who had accidentally trodden on the Dog`s tail.  Fortunately the parents of the child and the owners of the dog reacted quickly and no injury occurred .  The pub was very busy at this time and the incident went somewhat unnoticed.  I brought the incident to the attention of one of the managers and he actually laughed, it was monstrous.  When the pub became quieter I remonstrated with the said manager and I stated that IMO it was dangerous to have dogs and children in such close proximity whist food is being served.  He became extremely unpleasant and told me in no uncertain terms that if I did not like it then to "Stop coming back"   Two days later whilst I was out in the next village with friends my wife rang to inform me that the Owner of the pub had called around to our home and told me wife that I was barred from the pub and to never venture there again; my wife was distressed, she never frequented the pub and the owner and my wife are not well known to each other.  It is my opinion that he had no right whatsoever, to include my wife in this matter and to do so within her own home whilst I was not present.      I returned home then went to the pub to enquire why the owner had visited my home, and upset my wife.  Whilst I was on the pub car park I was met by both the owner and the manager who both informed that I was barred as I had upset staff members.  No suitable explanation was forthcoming from the owner for the reason of his unwanted and unwelcome visit plus his aggressive manner whilst he talked down to my wife.  They both informed me that they would forcefully remove me if I did not leave the car park.   Due to the immense stress I was enduring I felt an urgent need to use the toilet, when i requested to do so I was denied.  I could not believe it, I was in such a hopeless state and was utterly distraught.  Finally I struggled out of the car park but entered the front of the pub and headed for the toilet however they caught up with me and I sat down on a stool and refused to move until i was granted access to the toilet, however they were both adamant that it would not be allowed.  I reminded them that i was disabled but the owner stated that I was `Milking It` and to "Go behind a hedge".  At least half an hour passed, since I had entered the pub, and the owner stated that he would call the Police, I had gathered my thoughts a little by this time and I stated to them that I would call the Police myself and then see if I would be allowed to use the toilets.  I feel the owner began to realise that he might be in trouble as when I began to make the phone call he stated that I could use the toilet however he would accompany me; i had no option but to concur with his somewhat sick condition.  I was forced to defecate whilst he stood immediately outside the door.  My humiliation and embarrassment was complete.    Two days later I wrote to the owner and informed that I was intending to sue him for disability discrimination related offences.  He chose to disregard what I had stated and replied stating that he had no intention of lifting the ban.  I replied stating that I had no desire to ever enter one of his pubs ever again and that he should re-read my letter and respond to the charges.  He did not reply.   I issued proceedings against him in the Small Claim Court for less than £400  (Some of my clothes and a she were damaged due to soiling).  He, rather surprisingly, instructed a solicitor who has threatened me with costs being awarded against me by the court which could run into many many thousands of pounds and that there was clearly no case for her client to answer.  I must admit to being rather alarmed.  The owner is a wealthy man.     The court have advised mediation and have even offered to award one hour of such FOC; I agreed, the defendant refused.  We now have a date for a hearing and I do not know exactly what to expect.  His court response states that he will be bringing two witnesses with him yet there was only he, the owner and the manager who were present.    Much of this was audio recorded and the owner is not disputing much of my statement.  I never threatened violence or used bad language during this most unpleasant incident.      Any help and opinions would be greatly appreciated.   Kind regards.  --  tibar
    • My friend has told them this and got no response as yet nor any refund,  she  is giving them till about 2pm  to refund it or   will be  reporting it as fraud and  seeing the Police etc, have told her please  do not ever  do it again or drag me into it, I will do my best keep you updated   Sandy xx
    • Make sure you keep that email and print it out for safe keeping, just in case the PPC don't quite get the message.
    • Okay i've just sent the letters recorded delivery and have registered with the claims court. Just reading about PAP.
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sequenci

A guide to Charging Orders & Orders for Sale

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It's badly worded (and I think wrong, too!), but my understanding was that the £1000 limit was only for CCA debts? With all other debts still not having any minimum threshold to pursue.

 

 

And if you look here

 

 

http://www.northampton.gov.uk/info/200028/council-tax/96/council-tax-recovery-of-non-payment/8

 

 

this council is laying out it's case to the contrary.

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I've just had a long phone conversation with National Debt Line and realise that the document

from the House Of Commons library is super confusing. Utility companies CAN apply for an order for sale once they have obtained a charge order. I therefore recommend that anyone reading a document from the House Of Commons Library just take it with a pinch of salt.

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You really don't need to worry about orders for sale. Less than .2% of charging orders end up with orders being granted - and that's generally for business-related charges rather than consumer-related debts.

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Quite right Sequenci!

 

 

The trouble is a lot of "official" information regarding CO's fail to highlight the rarity of OFS, especially for consumer debt.

 

 

Hence, the tabloid scare headlines when the £1000 threshold was introduced.

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Thanks for that sequenci. I have been worrying myself stupid for the last two years after my water supplier obtained a charge order for £1870 against my house. I was afraid that I would end up living on the streets. However, once a year the water supplier send me a reminder stating that they may take enforcement action if I don't repay the debt. Does that mean that they could obtain an order for sale and I would be living on the streets?

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The juxstaposition of Charging Orders and Orders For Sale is the prior is extremely easy to obtain, whereas, the latter is extremely difficult to obtain. Judges have virtually no discretion in granting CO's but they have absolute discretion in granting Orders For Sale.

 

 

If your house is your family or sole residence then, no, you won't get an OFS made against you for the amount owed.

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It's interesting when you read the statute - it implies that a court should have a fair amount of jurisdiction:

 

(Charging Orders Act 1979)

 

(5)In deciding whether to make a charging order the court shall consider all the circumstances of the case and, in particular, any evidence before it as to—

(a)the personal circumstances of the debtor, and

(b)whether any other creditor of the debtor would be likely to be unduly prejudiced by the making of the order.

 

I guess there is a far stricter test when it comes to sale orders - and quite rightly so.

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Thanks for that sequenci. I have been worrying myself stupid for the last two years after my water supplier obtained a charge order for £1870 against my house. I was afraid that I would end up living on the streets. However, once a year the water supplier send me a reminder stating that they may take enforcement action if I don't repay the debt. Does that mean that they could obtain an order for sale and I would be living on the streets?

 

Unlikely. If the property is jointly owned and you have children it would be impossible anyway - as there is statute pretty much preventing it. Even regardless, I don't think any judge worth their salt would allow an order for sale for such a small amount of money (in the grand scheme of things).

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It's interesting when you read the statute - it implies that a court should have a fair amount of jurisdiction:

 

(Charging Orders Act 1979)

 

(5)In deciding whether to make a charging order the court shall consider all the circumstances of the case and, in particular, any evidence before it as to—

(a)the personal circumstances of the debtor, and

(b)whether any other creditor of the debtor would be likely to be unduly prejudiced by the making of the order.

 

I guess there is a far stricter test when it comes to sale orders - and quite rightly so.

 

 

I agree and it does make you wonder why there is virtually no resistance from Judges in granting CO's given the above??

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I guess there isn't a massive amount of prejudice in relation to the granting of a charge compared to losing your home.

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All my children are now adults and live elsewhere. The house is in my name only. My wife disappeared just over two years ago to live with another man. I guess that if the charge order doesn't kill me the impending divorce will. Either way I guess I will end up living on the streets.

Edited by chiefmegawatty

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If the house is in your name only, then the CO will be deducted from your sale proceeds if and when you sell. But (and I'm not diminishing your problems) it does seem a "manageable" amount? Many people on this site have CO's against them for amounts far in excess of your order amount which they have no way of discharging without selling up.

 

 

But as Sequenci has stated, OFS are a rarity and there is strong caselaw opposing such if the house is your primary residence. But I would look to see if there is interest accruing on the debt as it's usually 8% and will stack up if you don't discharge the debt in a reasonable time.

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Thanks for your reply. I have discovered that interest can only be added to charge orders over £5000 so no problem there. The house is my only and primary residence which raises another question in my mind. I own a large plot of land in Wiltshire which is on the land registry in my name. The plot is worth about £30,000. I assume that the water supplier and the county court failed to secure the charge order on my land and stuck it against my house so they could threaten me with being homeless. They could have obtained a charge order

on my land and then obtained an order for sale without having to threaten me with being homeless. I therefore consider water suppliers and County Court Judges to be evil people who want house owners to live on the streets. They had the choice of sticking the charge order on my house or on my land. They chose my house just to be nasty when I have another asset that would easily cover the debt many times over and could be sold without causing distress. Should I ever meet a County Court Judge in public I would be tempted to punch him in the face for being a house owner hating nasty person.

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Irrelevant and argumentative posts removed...please lets keep this civil and on track.

 

Regards

 

Andy


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Thanks for your reply. I have discovered that interest can only be added to charge orders over £5000 so no problem there. The house is my only and primary residence which raises another question in my mind. I own a large plot of land in Wiltshire which is on the land registry in my name. The plot is worth about £30,000. I assume that the water supplier and the county court failed to secure the charge order on my land and stuck it against my house so they could threaten me with being homeless. They could have obtained a charge order

on my land and then obtained an order for sale without having to threaten me with being homeless. I therefore consider water suppliers and County Court Judges to be evil people who want house owners to live on the streets. They had the choice of sticking the charge order on my house or on my land. They chose my house just to be nasty when I have another asset that would easily cover the debt many times over and could be sold without causing distress. Should I ever meet a County Court Judge in public I would be tempted to punch him in the face for being a house owner hating nasty person.

 

 

 

 

Can't you sell the land yourself to settle your debts?

 

Were they aware you owned this land?

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Don't ask about selling the land Ganymede! I had the gall to suggest that and my posts were deleted overnight :-)

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Don't ask about selling the land Ganymede! I had the gall to suggest that and my posts were deleted overnight :-)

 

Yes but its the way you suggested it ...perhaps try a more diplomatic approach in future.


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Yes I suppose I could sell the land to pay the charge order on my house. I assume that the water supply company and the county court judge must have known that I owned land. When they searched the land registry to see if I owned anything to slap a charge order on they would have found my house and my land as they are both on the land registry. Therefore I assume that the courts enforce charge orders deliberately to make house owners homeless despite there being an alternative when the house owner has other assets. I have learned that county court judges won't allow charge orders on house owners who have little equity in their house. I therefore conclude that the judges despise people who have worked hard for decades and bought their house outright. Being an outright house and land owner it's not surprising that I consider county court judges to be evil nasty people.

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The Court have nothing to do with what property is charged. They wouldn't know or care about your land, it's not the Courts concern and is the Claimant's choice but they probably didn't know about your land either unless you told them beforehand.

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It is unlikely that anyone has searched the land registry by name. I doubt anyone knows about this piece of land. Its actually very difficult to search the land registry to find out what property people own without a court order specifically authorising the search. Please refer to http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/public/can-i-search-against-a-persons-name-to-find-out-what-properties-they-own.

 

The judge will not have done any searches. The judge's job is just to decide the application. He would have had no idea you had other land. If you would have preferred them to get a CO over the land instead of your house, you could have offered this during the legal proceedings.

 

I doubt the water company know either. As the land is vacant, the water company would have no problem getting an order for sale if it knows where the land is !!.


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HI, Have a pending money claim court case and if lost expect creditor to stick in a charging order. As debt in my sole name, will wife's beneficial interest in any equity be maintained or will all the equity go to creditor ? Also following directions questionnaire now stayed to 19th Feb, any idea timescale to transfer to local county court & actual court date ( may sell home if we can prior to court).

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HI, Have a pending money claim court case and if lost expect creditor to stick in a charging order. As debt in my sole name, will wife's beneficial interest in any equity be maintained or will all the equity go to creditor ? Also following directions questionnaire now stayed to 19th Feb, any idea timescale to transfer to local county court & actual court date ( may sell home if we can prior to court).

 

 

 

The Charging Order will be registered in the form of a Restriction against your beneficial interest in the property only, not you wife's.

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Thank you steampowered for your reply. Very interesting indeed. I therefore assume that my water supplier searched the land registry using my home address to see if I owned the property. When they discovered that I owned my house, they put the debt in my name even though the water account was in my wife's name, then applied to the court for a CCJ against me and then a charge order. I do wonder why the water supplier didn't obtain a CCJ against my wife because she was the only earner at the time. They could then apply for an attachment to earnings against my wife and recovered the debt by now. Instead they seem to be happy to wait years for their money. Very strange in my opinion. I did phone my water supply company and asked them why they took the action against me rather than against my wife. They said that they weren't prepared to discuss this any further.

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i think it's stranger you let them take you to court for a debt your wife owed?

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Apparently for debts from domestic services which arent under the consumer credit act, the creditor can take anyone to court who was living in the property at the time. This applies even though the other occupant is unemployed and receiving no benefit payments.

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