East Riding of Yorkshire Council Overpayments - Part 2

[Big Boss Man]

Hi

 

Ive recently been informed that i have been overpaid Housing and Council Tax Benifits, which is currently at the Tribunal stage.

 

I have now been informed i have again been overpaid benifits, i have informed the council that i have taken everything into my local council office, with regard to an increase in earnings and i should not be liable for the overpayment, they have informed me there is nothing they can do and i must appeal.

 

AHHHHHHHHHH.

 

Any comments or similar stories greatly appreciated.

[silverfox1961]

Hi,

If you haven't raised a complaint yet, I would do so.

A stage 1 complaint will be dealt with by the department responsible for the benefits.

 

If they knock you back, complain to the chief executive instead of going to stage 2.

 

You have to give them the opportunity to resolve the complaint first but if that fails, go to the Local Goverment Ombudsman and get your local councillor involve and your MP

 

You may find this of interest:

 

Guidance Notes on Housing Benefit Overpayment

 

What makes an overpayment recoverable?

 

Under the Housing Benefit Regulations, all

overpayments of Housing Benefits are legally recoverable,

unless,

The overpayment was caused by an official error - this means the overpayment was due to something done, or not done, by us (the Council) or the DWP (Department of Works and Pensions)

and, You, or someone acting on your behalf, (E.g. An appointee), or someone to whom the

payment was made, (E.g. Your landlord), could not have reasonably been expected to know that an overpayment was being made, at the time that the payment was notified or received.

and,

You, or someone acting on your behalf, (E.g. An appointee), or someone to whom the payment was made, (E.g. Your landlord), did not contribute to the error's being made.

From whom may we recover?

Under the Housing Benefit Regulations, we may recover an overpayment from every person who had a -duty to inform us of the change in the claimant's circumstances that caused the overpayment, but failed to do so, or any person, who deliberate misrepresents the facts on which we have based our calculation of benefit.

Where no one has failed to notify, or has misrepresented we may recover from the person who received the overpayment.

Where the overpayment has been caused by an official error, then we may recover it from anyone who could reasonably be expected to know they were being overpaid, either at the time they received the payment, or any notification of it.

Under these rules, we may be able to recover from the landlord, and the claimant and their partner. Who we actually recover from is a further decision, and we will tell the person, or people, of this, in a separate letter.

 

[Big Boss Man]

Hi,

If you haven't raised a complaint yet, I would do so.

A stage 1 complaint will be dealt with by the department responsible for the benefits.

 

If they knock you back, complain to the chief executive instead of going to stage 2.

 

You have to give them the opportunity to resolve the complaint first but if that fails, go to the Local Goverment Ombudsman and get your local councillor involve and your MP

 

You may find this of interest:

 

Guidance Notes on Housing Benefit Overpayment

 

What makes an overpayment recoverable?

 

Under the Housing Benefit Regulations, all

overpayments of Housing Benefits are legally recoverable,

unless,

The overpayment was caused by an official error - this means the overpayment was due to something done, or not done, by us (the Council) or the DWP (Department of Works and Pensions)

and, You, or someone acting on your behalf, (E.g. An appointee), or someone to whom the

payment was made, (E.g. Your landlord), could not have reasonably been expected to know that an overpayment was being made, at the time that the payment was notified or received.

and,

You, or someone acting on your behalf, (E.g. An appointee), or someone to whom the payment was made, (E.g. Your landlord), did not contribute to the error's being made.

From whom may we recover?

Under the Housing Benefit Regulations, we may recover an overpayment from every person who had a -duty to inform us of the change in the claimant's circumstances that caused the overpayment, but failed to do so, or any person, who deliberate misrepresents the facts on which we have based our calculation of benefit.

Where no one has failed to notify, or has misrepresented we may recover from the person who received the overpayment.

Where the overpayment has been caused by an official error, then we may recover it from anyone who could reasonably be expected to know they were being overpaid, either at the time they received the payment, or any notification of it.

Under these rules, we may be able to recover from the landlord, and the claimant and their partner. Who we actually recover from is a further decision, and we will tell the person, or people, of this, in a separate letter.

 

 

Many thanks for your indepth reply - Basicly ive rang them up, the lady i spoke to remembers me very well from my previos complaint and overpayment, i expalined to her that i had taken the relevent docs in on time, she informed me that they was a aware of this but the office had taken approx 5 weeks to adjust my claim, i then stated amongst other words then in that case surley it is your error and not mine and i should not be liable for the overpayment, she informed that i would have to write in with the information i had just told, i emailed them and recieved a reply, they informed me that they couldnt change the decision and they would send me a complaint form.

 

With regard to the Cheif Executive, i have had reason to contact him on my previos case, he never replied to me and got his collegues to write to me, he never changed the decision, he also continues to use the DCA who caused serious problems for my family and i. My Local MP is currently following that matter, i have also informed him of these latest problems.

 

The time and cost it costs the council to go through these processes, i would have thought it would be cheaper to write off the overpayments.

 

I have also informed them that i am discussing the problems through the public domain - this site !

 

I will also be contacting the LGO with my concerns that keep repeating.

[Big Boss Man]

Hi,

If you haven't raised a complaint yet, I would do so.

A stage 1 complaint will be dealt with by the department responsible for the benefits.

 

If they knock you back, complain to the chief executive instead of going to stage 2.

 

You have to give them the opportunity to resolve the complaint first but if that fails, go to the Local Goverment Ombudsman and get your local councillor involve and your MP

 

You may find this of interest:

 

Guidance Notes on Housing Benefit Overpayment

 

What makes an overpayment recoverable?

 

Under the Housing Benefit Regulations, all

overpayments of Housing Benefits are legally recoverable,

unless,

The overpayment was caused by an official error - this means the overpayment was due to something done, or not done, by us (the Council) or the DWP (Department of Works and Pensions)

and, You, or someone acting on your behalf, (E.g. An appointee), or someone to whom the

payment was made, (E.g. Your landlord), could not have reasonably been expected to know that an overpayment was being made, at the time that the payment was notified or received.

and,

You, or someone acting on your behalf, (E.g. An appointee), or someone to whom the payment was made, (E.g. Your landlord), did not contribute to the error's being made.

From whom may we recover?

Under the Housing Benefit Regulations, we may recover an overpayment from every person who had a -duty to inform us of the change in the claimant's circumstances that caused the overpayment, but failed to do so, or any person, who deliberate misrepresents the facts on which we have based our calculation of benefit.

Where no one has failed to notify, or has misrepresented we may recover from the person who received the overpayment.

Where the overpayment has been caused by an official error, then we may recover it from anyone who could reasonably be expected to know they were being overpaid, either at the time they received the payment, or any notification of it.

Under these rules, we may be able to recover from the landlord, and the claimant and their partner. Who we actually recover from is a further decision, and we will tell the person, or people, of this, in a separate letter.

 

 

PS - I was unable to view the above files, not sure why, thanks for your comments.

[silverfox1961]

You seem to be well up to taking them on. I had to take my council on twice and won one and a half so I know how you are feeling. My last complaint took nearly 4 years to resolve but I ended up paying £300 out of a £1000 overpayment so a sort of result.

[Big Boss Man]

You seem to be well up to taking them on. I had to take my council on twice and won one and a half so I know how you are feeling. My last complaint took nearly 4 years to resolve but I ended up paying £300 out of a £1000 overpayment so a sort of result.

 

I dont like taking anyone on, but when you know your right or at least nearly right, i dont have no option but to go for gold ! the amounts are a lot less then yours stated, its a matter of principle and i have concerns that other people may experince the same problems as me.

 

It looks like theres gonna be a lot of apeals as my income fluctuates every month, i would have thought they should have tolerances, realistic tolerancies, give and take £100 maybe, would save a lot of time etc for everyone concerned.

 

To substantiate my concerns i have also obtained figures, under the FOI act, relating to the ovrpayment and write off of Housing and Council Tax benifit, briefly they was overpayments in excess of £400.000 and write offs in excess of £150.000 for a 3 month period last year ! as they was a problem with some of my request i requested further info, they replied that they had been a serious system failure and can not provide figures for a certain time period ! very interesting, im sure the Tribunal relating to part 1 will be interested to hear this info.

 

I was also pleased to hear of your result - every little helps !

[silverfox1961]

Morning,

 

Thought you would be interested in this thread. This shows just how low some councils will go to hide from their mistakes.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/benefits-tax-credits-minimum/165725-housing-benefit-admin-penalty.html#post1782854

[Big Boss Man]

Morning,

 

Thought you would be interested in this thread. This shows just how low some councils will go to hide from their mistakes.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/benefits-tax-credits-minimum/165725-housing-benefit-admin-penalty.html#post1782854

 

Thanks for the link, ive just managed to digest the many comments and nearly choked, can not beleive what this person is going through and it still is not resolved.

 

The link has also provided me with some extra amunition, looks like i am in for a long ride, TBH, if my case drags that much, and i know its not very proffesional, but i will have no option but to camp out in the Cheif Executives car parking space, untill it is resolved - Im sure you have heard of Fathers 4 Justice - this will be Caggers 4 Justice, just hope this site sells plackard boards LOL !

 

Thanks for your comments, ill post updates when they arise.

[Big Boss Man]

Update - Sent off appeal form, received confirmation from Local Authority that my Appeal has been received and recovery action is on hold.

[installspark]

You may find this of interest:

 

Guidance Notes on Housing Benefit Overpayment

 

What makes an overpayment recoverable?

 

Under the Housing Benefit Regulations, all

overpayments of Housing Benefits are legally recoverable,

unless,

The overpayment was caused by an official error - this means the overpayment was due to something done, or not done, by us (the Council) or the DWP (Department of Works and Pensions)

and, You, or someone acting on your behalf, (E.g. An appointee), or someone to whom the

payment was made, (E.g. Your landlord), could not have reasonably been expected to know that an overpayment was being made, at the time that the payment was notified or received.

and,

You, or someone acting on your behalf, (E.g. An appointee), or someone to whom the payment was made, (E.g. Your landlord), did not contribute to the error's being made.

From whom may we recover?

Under the Housing Benefit Regulations, we may recover an overpayment from every person who had a -duty to inform us of the change in the claimant's circumstances that caused the overpayment, but failed to do so, or any person, who deliberate misrepresents the facts on which we have based our calculation of benefit.

Where no one has failed to notify, or has misrepresented we may recover from the person who received the overpayment.

Where the overpayment has been caused by an official error, then we may recover it from anyone who could reasonably be expected to know they were being overpaid, either at the time they received the payment, or any notification of it.

Under these rules, we may be able to recover from the landlord, and the claimant and their partner. Who we actually recover from is a further decision, and we will tell the person, or people, of this, in a separate letter.

 

Or more importantly:

 

The Housing Benefit Regulations 2006

 

Recoverable overpayments

100

- (1) Any overpayment, except one to which paragraph (2) applies, shall be recoverable.

(2) Subject to paragraph (4) this paragraph applies to an overpayment caused by an official error where the claimant or a person acting on his behalf or any other person to whom the payment is made could not, at the time of receipt of the payment or of any notice relating to that payment, reasonably have been expected to realise that it was an overpayment.

(3) In paragraph (2), "overpayment caused by official error" means an overpayment caused by a mistake made whether in the form of an act or omission by—

(a) the relevant authority;

(b) an officer or person acting for that authority;

© an officer of —

(i) the Department for Work and Pensions; or

(ii) Revenue and Customs,

acting as such; or

(d) a person providing services to the Department for Work and Pensions or to the Commissioners for Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs,

where the claimant, a person acting on his behalf or any other person to whom the payment is made, did not cause or materially contribute to that mistake, act or omission.

(4) Where in consequence of an official error, a person has been awarded rent rebate to which he was not entitled or which exceeded the benefit to which he was entitled, upon the award being revised any overpayment of benefit, which remains credited to him by the relevant authority in respect of a period after the date on which the revision took place, shall be recoverable.

And the Council Tax Regulations 2006

 

Recoverable excess benefit

83.

— (1) Any excess benefit, except benefit to which paragraph (2) applies, shall be recoverable.

(2) Subject to paragraph (4) and (5) and excepting any excess benefit arising in consequence of a reduction in tax or substitution to which regulation 82 refers, this paragraph applies to excess benefit allowed in consequence of an official error, where the claimant or a person acting on his behalf or any other person to whom the excess benefit is allowed could not, at the time the benefit was allowed or upon the receipt of any notice relating to the allowance of that benefit, reasonably have been expected to realise that it was excess benefit.

(3) In paragraph (2), "excess benefit allowed in consequence of an official error" means an overpayment caused by a mistake made whether in the form of an act or omission by—

(a) the relevant authority;

(b) an officer or person acting for that authority;

© an officer of—

(i) the Department for Work and Pensions; or

(ii) the Commissioners for Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs,

acting as such; or

(d) a person providing services to the Department or to the Commissioners referred to in ©,

where the claimant, a person acting on his behalf or any other person to whom the payment is made, did not cause or materially contribute to that mistake, act or omission.

 

(4) Paragraph (2) shall not apply with respect to excess benefit to which regulation 82(a) and (b) refers.

(5) Where in consequence of an official error a person has been awarded excess benefit, upon the award being revised any excess benefit which remains credited to him by the relevant authority in respect of a period after the date of the revision, shall be recoverable.

[Big Boss Man]

Or more importantly:

 

The Housing Benefit Regulations 2006

 

Recoverable overpayments

100

- (1) Any overpayment, except one to which paragraph (2) applies, shall be recoverable.

(2) Subject to paragraph (4) this paragraph applies to an overpayment caused by an official error where the claimant or a person acting on his behalf or any other person to whom the payment is made could not, at the time of receipt of the payment or of any notice relating to that payment, reasonably have been expected to realise that it was an overpayment.

(3) In paragraph (2), "overpayment caused by official error" means an overpayment caused by a mistake made whether in the form of an act or omission by—

(a) the relevant authority;

(b) an officer or person acting for that authority;

© an officer of —

(i) the Department for Work and Pensions; or

(ii) Revenue and Customs,

acting as such; or

(d) a person providing services to the Department for Work and Pensions or to the Commissioners for Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs,

where the claimant, a person acting on his behalf or any other person to whom the payment is made, did not cause or materially contribute to that mistake, act or omission.

(4) Where in consequence of an official error, a person has been awarded rent rebate to which he was not entitled or which exceeded the benefit to which he was entitled, upon the award being revised any overpayment of benefit, which remains credited to him by the relevant authority in respect of a period after the date on which the revision took place, shall be recoverable.

And the Council Tax Regulations 2006

 

Recoverable excess benefit

83.

— (1) Any excess benefit, except benefit to which paragraph (2) applies, shall be recoverable.

(2) Subject to paragraph (4) and (5) and excepting any excess benefit arising in consequence of a reduction in tax or substitution to which regulation 82 refers, this paragraph applies to excess benefit allowed in consequence of an official error, where the claimant or a person acting on his behalf or any other person to whom the excess benefit is allowed could not, at the time the benefit was allowed or upon the receipt of any notice relating to the allowance of that benefit, reasonably have been expected to realise that it was excess benefit.

(3) In paragraph (2), "excess benefit allowed in consequence of an official error" means an overpayment caused by a mistake made whether in the form of an act or omission by—

(a) the relevant authority;

(b) an officer or person acting for that authority;

© an officer of—

(i) the Department for Work and Pensions; or

(ii) the Commissioners for Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs,

acting as such; or

(d) a person providing services to the Department or to the Commissioners referred to in ©,

where the claimant, a person acting on his behalf or any other person to whom the payment is made, did not cause or materially contribute to that mistake, act or omission.

 

(4) Paragraph (2) shall not apply with respect to excess benefit to which regulation 82(a) and (b) refers.

(5) Where in consequence of an official error a person has been awarded excess benefit, upon the award being revised any excess benefit which remains credited to him by the relevant authority in respect of a period after the date of the revision, shall be recoverable.

 

Thanks for the extra info, more amunition at the ready ! ill keep updates coming .

[Big Boss Man]

UPDATE - ive received notification that my appeal has stopped, they have stated this is because my overpayments have been reduced and that i will receive details of this change under seprate cover.

 

I have now received notification of the reduction and was amazed to see a reduction of approx £2, yes £2.

 

I have now made a further appeal into this matter.

[silverfox1961]

For pities sake, how petty can these people get. That's not even a decent drink.

I wonder if they'll keep reducing it by £2 every time to stop it getting to appeal.

Make sure you keep every piece of paper. Can't hurt to keep the envelopes too.

[Big Boss Man]

For pities sake, how petty can these people get. That's not even a decent drink.

I wonder if they'll keep reducing it by £2 every time to stop it getting to appeal.

Make sure you keep every piece of paper. Can't hurt to keep the envelopes too.

 

Thanks for your comments, they certanly have opened a can of worms now, all the paperwork is safe and ive stopped ringing them now, just in case they deny whats been said.

[Big Boss Man]

Update - Received confirmation that my Appeal has been accepted and is currently progressing !

[Big Boss Man]

UPDATE - TRIBUNAL WON ..

 

Sorry for the delay in the update, ive now received notifaction that my appeal has been passed to the tribunal service, the tribunal has recently been heard, and i have been succesfull, basically the judge considered all the evidence and stated that i had done everything possible, in letting the LA know changes etc.

[RaeUK]

Congratulations BBM, not seen your thread before so interesting reading.

Rae

[silverfox1961]

UPDATE - TRIBUNAL WON ..

 

Sorry for the delay in the update, ive now received notifaction that my appeal has been passed to the tribunal service, the tribunal has recently been heard, and i have been succesfull, basically the judge considered all the evidence and stated that i had done everything possible, in letting the LA know changes etc.

 

 

Brilliant Well done for taking on the faceless muppets. Just a shame it took so long.

Those in power need to know that they have to follow the rules just as much as we do. Even more so in some cases.

I would still go to the LGO about this as it should never have got to a tribunal. They have caused you stress, sleep deprivation plus (I'm sure) many other problems.(but that's just me)

 

Again, congrats

 

fox

[Big Boss Man]

Thank you all for your coments..

 

With regards to silverfox comments, you could not have put it better, the whole matter has caused serious health issues to myself and has rubbed off on my immediate family.

 

I am in the process of drafting a full list of conerns that i intend to pass to the LA, i pressume they wont offer any comments on what has happened, i will then pass it onto the LGO, ive encountered in excess of 20, yes 20 incidents of mistakes, errors etc during the past 11 months alone !

 

The Loacl Authority has requested a meeting with me, which i attended, tbh, i think they was just trying to soften me up and stop me complaining in the future !

 

Ive also forwarded my intention to the LA that i intend to recover all my expenses that i have incured as a result of this matter, i am still waiting a reply to this..

 

Any further advice would be gratfully appriciated, thanks again to you all.

[silverfox1961]

You are doing the right thing in giving the LA a chance to compensate you for their "errors" but I will make a prediction that they will try and fob you off so make sure you keep everything in writing and if invited for a meeting, take a witness and record the event(or tape it). If the council have nothing to hide, they shouldn't be worried about recordings.

The more evidence of the councils abuse of power will help should it go to the LGO (as I suspect it will).

 

One other thing I would do is, if you write to them, either send it recorded delivery or hand deliver it and get a receipt.

 

fox

[Big Boss Man]

You are doing the right thing in giving the LA a chance to compensate you for their "errors" but I will make a prediction that they will try and fob you off so make sure you keep everything in writing and if invited for a meeting, take a witness and record the event(or tape it). If the council have nothing to hide, they shouldn't be worried about recordings.

The more evidence of the councils abuse of power will help should it go to the LGO (as I suspect it will).

 

One other thing I would do is, if you write to them, either send it recorded delivery or hand deliver it and get a receipt.

 

fox

 

Thanks for the extra info - everything sent by post is registered and anything hand delivered, i obtain the relevent receipt, ive learnt from the initial overpayment !

 

I also try not to communicate via telephone, due to evidence reasons, i have informed the LA that any calls made to me may be recorded, they then seemed to stop telephoning me.

 

Ive also received a 10 page letter off them today ! just trying to digest the content . . with choking.

[Big Boss Man]

UPDATE - Ive now receievd notification from the LA that they will not pay anything towards me for the stress caused, loss of earnings, telephone and postage costs etc etc.

 

I am now drafting up a detailed list of costs together with letter before action that i intend to send to them.

 

Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this, is this the right course of action, and is there a specific template for claiming back costs etc that i can use ?

 

Many thanks for your continued help and comments in this matter.

[silverfox1961]

Hi again,

In my opinion, you are spot on with your actions. A LBA gives them the final opportunity to resolve the issue and if they fob you off (as is likely) you will have done evrything you can so you then pass it to the Ombudsman.

 

I don't think there is a specific letter you can use as no two cases are alike. You will have to make one up as you go along.

 

 

fox

[Big Boss Man]

Hi again,

In my opinion, you are spot on with your actions. A LBA gives them the final opportunity to resolve the issue and if they fob you off (as is likely) you will have done evrything you can so you then pass it to the Ombudsman.

 

I don't think there is a specific letter you can use as no two cases are alike. You will have to make one up as you go along.

 

 

fox

 

Thanks for your prompt update.. as always !

 

Just to confirm, i was intending to forward the stated info to the LA, if the matter remained unresolved i was going to log it with the County Court.

 

Is this ok to do in your opinion, or do i have to follow the LGO route first ?

 

I am also drafting a lengthy list of conerns and complaints regrading this LA, that will be passed to the LGO in due course too.

 

Thanks for your continued help.

[silverfox1961]

OOH tricky this.

 

I hope you have deep pockets if you take the council to court and they fight.

 

I'm not too hot on court procedure but as I see it, if you go to court and lose (unlikely but possible IMO) you will have no other avenues to explore( apart from an appeal which is more cost) but if you go to the Ombudsman first (which of course is free) An adjudicator will look at your case, investigate and rule, normally without the Ombudsman even knowing of the case but you also have the right of appeal (also free) which then gets put in front of the Ombudsman who will rule (either upholding or overruling the adjudicator)

 

I have found the Ombudsman Service to be fair and impartial.

 

Just a thought. With your LBA you could also threaten the council with going to the media to highlight how the council mis-use the public purse.

The council have a duty to maximise their income but by abusing their power to do so is wrong-plain and simple.