Andy01 V Halifax B4 2000

[Andy01]

Hi As adviced this is my new thread for halifax cards I took before 2000. So far I requested CCA and got reply with photo copies of a booklet. Not been signed by any party or dated. but they did default in 2007 and I am still paying them £1 each month.

 

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/v...alifax8018.jpg

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/v...ax8018-1-1.jpg

 

So What next?

Edited June 2, 2009 by Andy01

[alfwithhair]

can see no booklet or agreement on the links, only the letter?

[Andy01]

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv342/Andy01/HalifaxBos.jpg

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv342/Andy01/halifaxBos1.jpg

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv342/Andy01/halifaxBos3.jpg

 

All the rest is just simple T's & C's etc. This booklet is never been dated or signed . Above you can see this Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket

 

is the last page of agrrement whish is neither signed or dated most if all whhen did that started? i think both parties do nto know when it started. As this is very old.

 

Q. When did they introduce £12 charges because this copy of the agreement is quoting. If I remember this was only been introduce 4yrs ago so they have send me a new copy not my executed one

[Andy01]

I am thinking to send them this can any one check this please

 

Mr XX

XXXX

dateXXXXX

Account No XXXXXXXXX

 

 

Dear Sir/ Madam,

 

 

I am in receipt of your letter dated 1st June 2009 in response to my CCA 1974 request made on the 18th May 2009.

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending 2 different copies of the agreements with your companies current Terms and conditions. I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request. This also does not make it clear that which copy of the agreement applies to me and when it was taken out.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

 

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

 

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557

 

The regulations state

 

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy

 

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations there under as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions

 

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

 

In either case, please confirm that you have, in your possession, a credit agreement that is in all ways fully compliant with the Consumer Credit At 1974, as amended, and the subsequent regulations made there under

For the avoidance of doubt, if you are in possession of such a document, but are unable to supply me with a true copy of it, please outline your reasons why you are unable to supply it to me in your reply

 

Further more, I respectfully request that you provide me by return a copy of the credit agreement which bears my signature. I require this as I have reason to believe that there may be discrepancies within the agreement which may leave it improperly executed.

 

Obviously if the agreement is improperly executed I would be entitled to ask the Court to consider the agreement and make a declaration of the rights of parties to the agreement. (s142(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I must stress this part of my request is NOT made pursuant to section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974 but is made pursuant to the Rules ( Pre action protocols and Part 31.16) and therefore an unsigned copy will not suffice, only a copy of the original contract in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances

 

Please confirm if you still hold a copy of my signed agreement and that you will provide me with this document

I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that by supplying the document which i have asked for it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides

 

 

I look forward to your reply and would ask for a response by XXX

Edited June 4, 2009 by citizenB
have taken out annoying formatting instructions .

[Andy01]

The top letter or this one can any one check please

Dear Sir/Madam

 

I am in receipt of your letter dated 2nd June 2009, the contents of which have been noted.

 

Having reviewed the copy documents you have sent in response to my request under s78 CCA, I have come to the conclusion that no valid or enforceable agreement exists between us.

The documents you have supplied do not relate to me and comply with s61 (1) or s127(3) CCA and are therefore improperly executed and totally unenforceable:

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On 18th May 2009 I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. A copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on 4th June 2009.

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore

You are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

(a) He is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; you must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such Data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

 

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

 

Yours faithfully

Edited June 4, 2009 by citizenB
removed annoying formatting instructions :)

[citizenB]

Andy, I have removed the annoying formatting instructions that always seem to appear with word documents:)

 

Other than that, which ever letter you feel comfortable sending is good.

 

None of the documents posted up amount to a valid agreement IMHO

[Andy01]

CB you are always helpful thanks

[citizenB]

[Andy01]

2nd letter DISCOUNT IN DISPUTE went out yesterday. Now lets wait and see

[Andy01]

Hi Got this reply from Blair scott instead of Halifax altough I wrote to Blair first request and they first reply I got from Halifax direct for my CCA. I wrote to them "Account in dispute" letter on 6th June but today I got this. Although it says "application" but it also says "agrrement". So what is it? http://i32.tinypic.com/auwhl1.jpg

[cerberusalert]

It doesn't contain any of the prescribed terms so it's unenforceable.

 

Send them this;

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

This account is in Dispute .

 

On xx/xx/2007 I wrote to xxxxxxxxx requesting that xxxxxxx supply me a true copy of the executed credit agreement for this account.

In response to this request I was supplied a mere application form which did not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The document sent purporting to be a credit agreement does not contain any of the prescribed terms as required by section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) made under the authority of the “1974 Act” sets out what the prescribed terms are, I refer you to Schedule 6 Column 2 of SI 1983/1553 for the definition of what is required. Suffice to say none of the terms are present in the document

 

Since this document does not contain the required prescribed terms it is rendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974, which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This situation is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

In addition should you continue to pursue me for this debt you will be in breach of the OFT guidelines, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I refer to page 5 of the guidance which states;

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment.

 

I require you to produce a compliant copy of my credit agreement to confirm I am liable to you or any organisation, which you represent for this alleged debt, if you cannot do so I require written clarification that this is the case. Should you ignore this request I will report you to the Office of Fair Trading to consider your suitability to hold a credit licence in addition to a complaint to Trading Standards, as you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40

 

Since the agreement is unenforceable it would be in everyone’s interest to consider the matter closed and for your client to write the debt off. I suggest you give serious consideration to this as any attempt of litigation will be vigorously defended and I will counter claim for all quantifiable damages

 

I respectfully request a response to this letter in 14 days

 

 

I trust this out lines the situation

Print name do not sign

[Andy01]

execellent Cerber It will go out tomorrow but should I be sending to Blairs or Halifax or Both of them?

[cerberusalert]

Send it to Blaire Oliver Scott who are Halifax who are Bank of Scotland. See the similarity in initials BOS & BoS?

[citizenB]

I have discovered that who ever you reply to .. the other one will reply:confused: Blair Oliver is the "inhouse" solicitor, so both of them will have access to any information.

[Andy01]

True I have 2 accounts are with Halifax and one with Bank of Scotland. When I went to send recorded delivery to Blairs at post office and on their computer P.O.Box address comes under Bank of Scotland.Its nice to have every one in the same building but they still can't find my agreements:)

[citizenB]

True I have 2 accounts are with Halifax and one with Bank of Scotland. When I went to send recorded delivery to Blairs at post office and on their computer P.O.Box address comes under Bank of Scotland.Its nice to have every one in the same building but they still can't find my agreements

 

 

This is good news

[Andy01]

Hi Cerber I have send the letter recorded delivery as above today to Blairs and as came home I got this http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv342/Andy01/Halifax2.jpg Do I need to reply again to them or any other threatning reply?

[Andy01]

[citizenB]

Hi Andy, send a copy of the letter to the OFT.. use the letter in the link below .

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/50-complaint-in-respect-of-dca-threat-re-expired-debt/101-complaint-in-respect-of-invalid-cca-agreement

 

You can, if you wish send a copy of your complaint to Blair Oliver Scott, with short note advising them that they are well aware the account is in dispute with the original creditor and in view of their continued harassment and failure to resolve your dispute you have made this complaint to the OFT.

[Andy01]

Thanks buddy I am going away abroad for 8 days and will send OFT as soon as I come back.

[Andy01]

This is what I am sending to OFT and TS

Dear Sir/Madam

Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUT)

Formal complaint against BLAIR, OLIVER AND SCOTT LIMITED DEBT

COLLECTORS

Ref No 1. XXXXXXXXXXX

Ref No 2. XXXXXXXXXXX

Ref No 3. XXXXXXXXXXX

 

I am writing to complain under the above CPUT regulations. I am receiving threatning letters and text messages from a debt collection company called BLAIR, OLIVER AND SCOTT LTD, who are suppose to acting on behalf of Halifax and Bank of scotland, in respect a purported debt which I understand is governed by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

In accordance with the Consumer Credit Act I requested BLAIR, OLIVER AND SCOTT LTD to supply me with a true executed copy of the Consumer Credit agreement. I had also requested HALIFAX and BANK OF SCOTLAND DIRECT too.

So far they have failed to do so/ supplied me with a document which clearly fails to satsify the Consumer Credit Act. I enclose a copy of that document with this letter.

Although I have pointed this out to BLAIR, OLIVER AND SCOTT LTD they have failed to acknowledge this and continue to contact me and to harrass me with threats of action.

Clearly they are entitled to bring a legal action if they so wish. However, they have not done so and appear instead to be relying upon a campaign of systematic contact with accompanied by threats.

I consider that BLAIR, OLIVER AND SCOTT LTD are operating an unfair commercial practice and it is for this reason that I am sending you this complaint.

I enclose examples of the letters which they have been sending to me but I am unable to print their text messages send by them for you to examine.

I would be grateful if you would acknowledge this letter and let me know what procedures you now intend to follow and what your targets for action are.

Yours faithfully

sign the letter

[citizenB]

Sounds good to me, Andy

[Andy01]

Today I got this from Blairs although they had already letter of "dispute". According to their this letter I never requested repayment plan. But I don,t know what are they doing?

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv342/Andy01/Halifax4.jpg Also the same letter I got for Bank Of Scotland which I am going to paste it my BOS thread

[cerberusalert]

Ignore them, until they provide an enforceable CCA the a/c is still in dispute.

[Andy01]

Hi Cerber i am going to draft SAR letter similar to I send R WAY later. Please have a look at these 2 attachment when Halifax ENDED my agreement but I can't find the DN. With my SAR request atleast they will not be able to change the dates etc.

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv342/Andy01/Halifax8018.jpg and 2nd account

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv342/Andy01/Halifax3013.jpg

Thanks