Barclaycard CCA - advice on next move please

[LB145]

Sent request for CCA originally - still no signed agreement sent, have sent 2nd and 3rd letter stating "a very clear dispute and as such etc." giving 14 days to respond, the letter below arrived on Saturday - any advice as to what the next move is please?

 

How do I attach pics?

[maroondevo52]

Hi, LB145.

 

You could try 'photobucket'..............

 

Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket

 

Or have a look here...........

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-consumer-forums/107001-how-do-i-dummies.html

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[LB145]

Thanks for picture info - here is the letter received (I Hope!!!)

 

Edited June 1, 2009 by LB145

[LB145]

Thanks for the picture advice - not sure if I got if right!

[slick132]

Hi LB,

 

This is a standard response from BC.

 

Have the sent you anything in reply to your CCA request, eg a set of their T&C's ?

 

[LB145]

Hi Slick 132 - thanks for your reply, yes they enclosed a leaflet of terms and conditions and telling me to view the website for further information - I sent a letter stating that this was not my signed credit agreement, they responded by sending a Printed (typed) Barclaycard Conditions Credit Agreement, under the heading is a typed sentence stating that this is an agreement with us (barclays) and my name and address, I think this is a cancellation form as there is a box to complete if I wish to cancel the agreement. - There is nothing with my signature on. I sent a letter stating that the account is in dispute as the information sent does not fulfill my request. Their response was the previous item.

 

What is the next move if any?

 

How do I do the scales thing?

[slick132]

If you've suffered penalty charges on the a/c, you should reclaim them, in full, now. If you need statements from BC for the last 6 years, send them a SAR

 

You could complain to the FOS that BC have failed to respond with your credit agreement and are evading their responsibilities under CCA 1974.

 

Or read up on the CPR strategy - see Link No 2 in my signature below.

[LB145]

Still no CCA - no response to SAR - although they have sent a letter to apologise for the delay in dealing with my complaint!

[LB145]

Package arived today with the following letter - also another persons letters were included in my package!!!

 

http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww132/Diamond40_photo/BarclaycardResponseLetterBlanked.jpg

http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww132/Diamond40_photo/BarclaycardResponseLetter2Blanked.jpg

 

Any advice greatly apreciated and urgent - I am "juggling so many plates" at the moment that I do not want to lose track!

[slick132]

Hi LB,

 

 

You could send the other person's data to the Information Commissioners Office with a brief letter explaining that BC have sent it to you in error.

 

They'll forward it to the intended recipient and hopefully also approach BC about their failings.

 

Have you got enough data to do your SOC yet.

[LB145]

What is SOC?

[slick132]

SOC = Schedule of Charges.

 

List all the charges on a site spreadsheet to create your SOC - http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/48-bank-templates/118-interest-calculation-spreadsheets

 

Use the CCard Prelim letter here - http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/48-bank-templates/121-bookworm

 

This letter can also be reused for your LBA.

 

Read the Reclaiming Guide in my signature below - Link No1.

[vint1954]

Thanks for picture info - here is the letter received (I Hope!!!)

 

What they fail to say is that the information that can be missed is a signature or security information.

[vint1954]

Hi LB,

 

If I read this one correctly, you have sent a CCA request and BC have not provided an agreement, just terms and conditions.

 

Please confirm.

 

Vint

[LB145]

Hi LB,

 

If I read this one correctly, you have sent a CCA request and BC have not provided an agreement, just terms and conditions.

 

Please confirm.

 

Vint

 

This is what they sent when I originally requested the CCA agreement - typed details with my name at the top (blanked out) etc, I wrote back etc, and there was no other documentation in the SAR other than mentined in previous thread, any views?

 

http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww132/Diamond40_photo/BarclaycardTermsConditionsBlankedPa.jpg

http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww132/Diamond40_photo/BarclaycardTermsConditionsBlanke-1.jpg

[vint1954]

This is what they sent when I originally requested the CCA agreement - typed details with my name at the top (blanked out) etc, I wrote back etc, and there was no other documentation in the SAR other than mentined in previous thread, any views?

 

http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww132/Diamond40_photo/BarclaycardTermsConditionsBlankedPa.jpg

http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww132/Diamond40_photo/BarclaycardTermsConditionsBlanke-1.jpg

Total rubbish.

 

I will put something together as soon as I can.

 

Vint

[vint1954]

Hi LB,

 

I have sent you a PM, with a letter.

 

Vint

[slick132]

Hi LB and Vint,

 

This would be better dealt with on the open forum (obviously with name, address and amounts hidden) for 2 reasons. Other users can see any suggested letter which:-

 

1. Can be checked and, if necessary, corrected or discussed.

 

2. Can benefit all site users who may need similar guidance.

 

[LB145]

Here is the template letter response that I am to send.

 

Letter below for Barclays.

 

ACCOUNT IN SERIOUS DISPUTE

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxx 2009.

 

Dear xxxxxxx,

 

Re account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

I am in receipt of your letter date xxxxxxxxxxxxxx and note its contents.

 

 

I note, that xxxxxxxx are still in breach of supplying the documentation that I have previously requested under s78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, in that xxxxxx have yet to supply a legible executed agreement. To date, all that you have supplied under this request, is a copy of the alleged terms and conditions. As you are aware, just supplying terms and conditions, does not satisfy the criteria laid down for an agreement.

 

In relation to what constitutes a true copy, please read the details below. In a recent letter from the enforcement department of the OFT, the text below was quoted, explaining what is required.

 

“The copy of the executed agreement need not be an exact copy but it must be a ‘true copy’ and not some reconstruction of what the original might have been and it must contain the same terms as the original. Where the terms have been varied as provided for within the agreement, the copy of the original agreement must be accompanied by a document setting out the current terms, as varied. Certain details may be omitted from the original agreement eg the signature but the debtor must be in no doubt as to the true nature of his obligations under the loan.

 

Should no original agreement be in existence it is very hard to say that the copy the creditor offers to the debtor is, in fact, a true copy as there would be no original with which to compare it. In our view the onus of proof would be on the creditor to show that the copy is a true one and where none existed he may have difficulty discharging this. Neither should creditors suggest that a consumer has signed a credit agreement where they are unable to provide evidence to support this — to do so is likely to be a misleading action under Regulation 5 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (the CPRs) and would also constitute an unfair or improper business practice.”

 

 

 

The relevant main points of the Law and OFT regulations while the account is in dispute and Barclaycard remain in default.

 

• Barclays may not ask for payment against this account.
  
• I am not obliged to offer any payment against this account.
  
• Barclays cannot register any data with a third party.
  
• Barclays cannot take any enforcement action, including registering Defaults.
  
• Barclays cannot pass the account on to a third party for collection.
  
• Barclays cannot sell the account.
  

I am now granting to you a further 7 days to produce a true copy of any executableagreement.After that I will consider that the above matter is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt.If you are insisting that the non enforceable reconstructed Application form with added Terms and Conditions that you have supplied, is the only alleged agreement in your possession, then I would suggest that the best course of action would be to immediately set the balance of the above account number to zero.

 

You must also consider this letter as notice under s10 of the Data Protection Act, to cease processing my data. All entries which refer to missed payments be removed from my credit file All collection activities cease with immediate effect until you comply with my request from xxxxxxxxx or such time as a court makes an enforcement order.

 

Yours sincerely

[vint1954]

Hi LB and Vint,

 

This would be better dealt with on the open forum (obviously with name, address and amounts hidden) for 2 reasons. Other users can see any suggested letter which:-

 

1. Can be checked and, if necessary, corrected or discussed.

 

2. Can benefit all site users who may need similar guidance.

 

Hi Slick,

 

I have no problem with that, if LB is in agreement.

 

Just mindfull of guests.

[slick132]

Thanks peeps.

 

A letter which is often used at this stage is here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/barclaycard/167584-barclaycard-no-cca.html#post1821561

 

To this, you could add the 5 bullet points about what Barclays cannot do while the default continues.

[LB145]

Thanks peeps.

 

A letter which is often used at this stage is here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/barclaycard/167584-barclaycard-no-cca.html#post1821561

 

To this, you could add the 5 bullet points about what Barclays cannot do while the default continues.

 

Update: Have sent that letter previously - followed by SAR information request - Vint was guiding me with a letter to respond to the contents in the SAR explaining why their "Terms & Conditions" were not a legal executed agreement.

 

Thanks for any help given - my wireless keyboard does not like double letters and I am constantly having to retype :-| or go back and edit!

[vint1954]

Update: Have sent that letter previously - followed by SAR information request - Vint was guiding me with a letter to respond to the contents in the SAR explaining why their "Terms & Conditions" were not a legal executed agreement.

 

Thanks for any help given - my wireless keyboard does not like double letters and I am constantly having to retype :-| or go back and edit!

Hi LB,

 

If you want to amalgamate the 2 letters:

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Account Number: XXX

 

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending a copy of your companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a "true copy" of the agreement.

In relation to what constitutes a “true copy”, please read the details below. In a recent letter from the enforcement department of the OFT, the text below was quoted, explaining what is required.

 

“The copy of the executed agreement need not be an exact copy but it must be a ‘true copy’ and not some reconstruction of what the original might have been and it must contain the same terms as the original. Where the terms have been varied as provided for within the agreement, the copy of the original agreement must be accompanied by a document setting out the current terms, as varied. Certain details may be omitted from the original agreement eg the signature but the debtor must be in no doubt as to the true nature of his obligations under the loan.

 

Should no original agreement be in existence it is very hard to say that the copy the creditor offers to the debtor is, in fact, a true copy as there would be no original with which to compare it. In our view the onus of proof would be on the creditor to show that the copy is a true one and where none existed he may have difficulty discharging this. Neither should creditors suggest that a consumer has signed a credit agreement where they are unable to provide evidence to support this — to do so is likely to be a misleading action under Regulation 5 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (the CPRs) and would also constitute an unfair or improper business practice.”

 

This breach of the agreement by yourselves, can be demonstrated as follows:

 

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, "the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form." This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable. I await a “True copy” of my agreement and would remind you again that, whilst the request has not been complied with, the default continues.

Below are the relevant main points of the Law and OFT regulations while the account is in dispute and Barclaycard remain in default.

• Barclays may not ask for payment against this account.
  
• I am not obliged to offer any payment against this account.
  
• Barclays may not add further interest or any charges to the account
  
• Barclays cannot register any data with a third party.
  
• Barclays cannot take any enforcement action, including registering Defaults.
  
• Barclays cannot pass the account on to a third party for collection.
  
• Barclays cannot sell the account.
  

I am now granting to you a further 7 days to produce a true copy of any executable agreement. After that I will consider that the above matter is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt. If you are insisting that the non enforceable reconstructed Application form with added Terms and Conditions that you have supplied, is the only alleged agreement in your possession, then I would suggest that the best course of action would be to immediately set the balance of the above account number to zero.

 

 

Yours faithfully

It may be repeating what you have already sent, however you then have all bases coveres.

Edited August 16, 2009 by vint1954

[LB145]

Thanks again - I sent he other letter on Friday - shouldn't make much difference - eh?

 

Am sitting here on a Sunday morning - trying to work out another thread - the wonderful H_L-F_AX - the joys!

[vint1954]

Had a quick look there and postsed.

 

Try not to let this rule your life though. It gets easier with time, although I know it can be stressful.

 

Couple of G&T's or some wine usually put things into prospective. ( Not for breakfast though )