Help with HSBC please!

[smiler71]

Hi

 

I’ve read many posts on this site, posted a few questions of my own and have had some excellent advice. One question I can’t seem to find an answer to is regarding HSBC and business loan agreement, or lack of one should I say. Not sure if anyone hear can help, but I’m hoping someone can.

 

Took out a business loan (Ltd Company) in 2004, was told we had to take PPI even though we didn’t want it as it was inappropriate for our situation at the time. We also signed a debenture/personal guarantee for the loan.

 

Successfully reclaimed PPI in 2006 or there about, HSBC wouldn’t just deduct PPI from existing loan but had to start a new loan minus PPI. When we went to the bank to sign new agreement for transfer to take place it wasn’t ready so transfer went ahead without it. We never saw let alone signed an agreement for the loan. The loan was paid in full eight/nine months ago. However, business experienced significant financial difficulties for last two years or so resulting in us closing down a months ago. We didn’t have the money to formally wind up the company so are going to apply for a sticking off after three months. Had some interest from a third party to take over the lease in the premises and was paid £2000 for fittings, used money to pay electric, business rates and other outstanding bills.

 

Been contacted by the bank demanding the outstanding balance owed from the overdraft and business credit card, approximately £5500. They are saying we signed a personal guarantee, I was of the understanding that the guarantee related to the first loan only which no longer exists. However, I purchased a copy of the debenture from Companies house and it states something like “all moneys owed whether now or in the future”, so this is now a personal debt. Obviously I am not in the position to pay this back. The business had made a loss which was covered by me/family personally, and I am now on benefits.

 

My family have offered to loan me enough money to cover approximately 40% of this debt which I have offered to them, I did telephone them last week and they said the letter was being dealt with but it was unlikely they would accept the offer.

 

So here is my question, the loan taken out to replace the original, minus PPI was paid back in full. I was just wondering whether what they did, taking the payments from the account was lawful and legal without a signed agreement, and if not I was hoping to use this as a way of making our full and final look more attractive. I would guess that if it was a personal loan covered by CCA you would have a good case in reclaiming the money taken without a signed agreement in place? I don’t want to rock the boat by writing to them stating the fact they took the loan payments without a signed agreement only to find out it makes no difference and it was completely legal.

 

If I could find out if the payments were taken unlawfully, and indeed I could, if I wanted to make a sound, legitimate reclaim for the loan payments this would be far and above what we owe them. This as I said may dissuade them from chasing this and make them see the full and final as attractive. Much of the money owing on the overdraft was for charges anyhow.

 

Not sure if this is the right forum to post but I would be grateful for any help/advice.

 

Thank you.

[Castlebest]

I'm not absolutely sure on this one but I would think it would be your word against theirs that one loan was closed and a new loan taken out 8-). They would try to use the original loan agreement whatever you do so unless you have something to back your case in writing I think your stuck.

 

pete

[Montoonie1]

Found this www.goodmanderrick.co.uk/news/documents/personal_guarantees.pdf which you may find of interest. It discusses your very problem.

 

What is clear in the above is that like anything else, there is a contract here. You need a copy of the contract to study its wording - I find it hard to believe that a contract is not limited in its scope.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Montoonie1

[smiler71]

Hi

 

And thank you for your advice, unfortunately the link you refer to does not work. However, I have sent a Subject Access Request to HSBC making specific reference to any agreements or personal guarantees that have been signed personally.

 

Castlebest, I take your point about it being our word against theirs as there was no agreement. However, I have all the business bank account statements which clearly show all the transactions, including the balance being paid off the original loan. The monthly payments also differed for the two loans, and it even states “first payment” for the new loan. Do you think this would be enough evidence to prove it was a new agreement? I really don’t know if it is worth pursuing this issue. As I said I don't want to try reclaiming this money, I just want something to use in my favour that will hopefully make HSBC see the full and final offer as attractive.

 

Thanks for all your advice.

Edited June 9, 2009 by smiler71

[Montoonie1]

similer

 

just enter the URL goodmanderrick.co.uk/news/documents/personal_guarantees.pdf. Dont forget the 'www.' I've not included it so you can see the URL properly:)

 

M1

[smiler71]

Ok, got it now, thanks again!

[smiler71]

Hi

 

I’m still waiting for HSBC to supply relevant documents following the SAR. However, I have received a letters from them refusing the full and final settlement offer of 40% the original debt. They also state in their letter that “it is not HSBC policy to freeze Interest and charges on business accounts”. The business is no longer in existence, and they are chasing this through the personal guarantee so the debt should now be a personal debt shouldn’t it? Can they legitimately continue to apply these charges? I did write to them stating the debt was now personal and therefore covered by the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations but they are seemingly ignoring this. Not sure where to go from here, we haven’t really got any disposable monthly income to offer.

 

Just one more thing! I profess to have very little knowledge of debentures/personal guarantees. As I said in my previous post I purchased a copy of the debenture from the Companies House website. I’ve just read through page 2 of the document, “Short particulars of all the property mortgaged or charged” and it only makes reference to the business premises, land and fixtures/fitting belonging to the business. The business premises were leased, there was no land, and the fixtures were sold off for the small sum of £2000 to pay business rates, electric etc. would the copy held with Companies House be the same as the copy with the bank? As this document makes no reference to personal possessions, home etc what can they chase me for? I’m a little confused as to my liability.

 

Is there anyone knowledgeable about debentures/personal guarantees that can help please?

 

I will try and post a copy of the signed page, sorry it’s not very good quality, but obviously it’s only scanned in to the Company’s House database. Hope it’s legible.

 

Thanks again

personal guarantee1.pdf