Why let your bank keep your money? Calculating your charges claim

[car2403]

And there's CPUT Regulations

[enoughisenough]

Sorry CAR forgot about those! and the emasculated CCA 2006!

[AA99]

And there's CPUT Regulations

 

 

They are very good regulations, Car, however, not many creditors seem to stick to them. Also, it is increasingly difficult to get the correct response from the authoratitive body, of which there seem to be many for various forms of complaint:confused:

[lexis200]

They are very good regulations, Car, however, not many creditors seem to stick to them. Also, it is increasingly difficult to get the correct response from the authoratitive body, of which there seem to be many for various forms of complaint

 

Absolutely - If I'm advising someone of who to complain to about what I frequently have to double check myself so that I'm not sending them to a body that won't help help them.

 

Some sort of sticky with a quick lowdown to be able to point people to would be extremely handy (at least for those of us with the memory of a gnat:oops:)

[danielr]

Hello,

just a few quick questions, I'm rather confused,

Apologies that this is a long post.

 

I have kept most, paper statements from my bank going back to when my account first went to university opening a student account to present day. (some 9 years).

 

First question, There are a few gaps in my records, (where I've lost a statement or two) is it safe to put together a case to present to the banks on the available evidence?

for example if I were missing june 2008 statement I couldn't see the interest charged, if I decide not to claim this, will this weaken the 'case'? because I don't have all facts, or will the bank like this more as it lessens the amount that they will pay?

 

Same for the interest amount. I've not really left my overdraft in a long time, but say for example I have a £2000 over draft and get paid £1500 a month, (and for the sake of argument am awed £1000 in bank charges, I'm £500 over drawn at the start of the month, and this rises steadily to near £2000, say I get up to 20th day of the month and I'm only £1000 over drawn, all the interest in the month is 'the banks' up to now, then I should only really have to pay the interest from the last few days, and not for the £500 at the start or the gradual rise. (so basically, only £1000 over ten days, not over 20 days, that's only 1/3rd, not 1/2 or the interest.

 

but the interest over the month isn't actually that much. i know it'll add up over time.

 

It's not that I want to 'give' them money, but I'd prefer the claim to be as quick and easy as possible.

 

 

Second question?

I assume that the first step in this process it to approach the bank and try to settle this debt gracefully without having to launch a court case.

 

this thread mentions going to court, places to go for getting docs from the banks and the people to go to when they are slow to do this, but how do I

 

approach my bank? is a letter to the branch manager enough?

My bank is lloyds TSB, do I need to send it to their head office or a legal department etc?

 

 

Third question, I see six years mentioned, what is this about? can I claim for the full 9 years that I have records for, (I incurred no charges before this anyway).

Most of my charges were incurred whilst I was at university (6 or more years ago), whilst I haven't checked yet I wouldn't be surprised if the actual charges didn't make up the full amount of my overdraft (which I have never left for more than around a week since) -would this mean that I could say all interest since the date that charges became the total over draft amount is owed to me? (more than 6 years ago).

 

I know it says above that this question has already been answered, but I can't find the answer.

 

 

 

Fourthly, where do I stand since I have come out of my overdraft, but quickly go back in.

each month I'll receive my wages, which are just enough for my means, so I'll come out of my overdraft, for a day or two then throughout the month go back down to scraping the barrel at the OD limit.

 

it's been this way for a couple of years now, can the banks (successfully) argue that I've cleared the debt of illegal charges by coming out of the overdraft and not have to pay the past few years since clearly after rising above zero, and spending that caused me to go back into my over draft was my own doing not controlled or caused by the banks? so they should not be liable for over draft interest where this pattern has emerged?

 

fifth quetion

Landy_alert on june 14th suggested that when approaching the bank to reclaim debts they closed her aco****, froze interest on the overdraft, the solicitors sent nasty letters etc.

 

Should I consider setting up a different account with a different bank first before approaching the bank at all?

If my account is suspended (and I have only one account I'll have nowhere for my wages to be paid to, no way to pay my rent or service my other debts.

 

basically, should I do the bottom covering exercise of opening a separate account at a separate bank. or should I trust that the bank can see I'm not in hardship, and that they shouldn't close my account. -at least if I were in hardship then they should have noticed this earlier!

(and if they were to do such a thing, how easy is it to prove that this is a malicious act, -as far as I'm concerned it would be, I say "you owe me money that you took illegally" and they say "fine", and close my account leaving me pretty high and dry! but I understand that just saying "see event A and see event B it's obvious what happened!" isn't the kind of proof a judge would want -assuming it got that far, especially when the banks laywers would smile sweetly, "say he's not left his over draft in 9 years and we did this as it was in his best interests, as he's facing such hardship").

 

 

 

last question.

someone said earlier that it was not possible to add interest at the current account rate to the amount that the bank owes you after that would have taken you out of your overdraft. -as there is the argument that I might have spent it).

 

however, as I see it I've been a regular 'lender' to the bank for the better part of a decade, why can't a charge them interest say at the base rate of the time.

 

The bank have used ME as a source of credit, if they went to the BoE and used them as creditors they would pay interest on that money. why can't I charge interest?

I'm not talking about a silly amount, but the bank would surely agree to pay at least the BoE set base rate at the time. as that's at least what they'd pay on any other borrowing that they did at the time.

 

and this would be separate and additional to claiming back the interest. because i'm not asking for interest on charges as a fee for borrowing, it's asking for interest back as this was a further 'illegal' charged based on the illegal charges at the start.

[UncomfortablyNumb]

Hi. Been reading this thread all evening and as 'LickTheWallFatBoy' just said. This thread has frazzled my brain. At least 1 other is

'Dazed&Confused' so I've finally arrived as 'UncomfortablyNumb'

 

Help !!

Going right back to the basics if I may, Am I to understand that having had an active overdraft, always within agreed limits and no defaults, with the Halifax for many years that each month the interest charges levied on my account have included a percentage calculated on previous interest charges levied and that this is a violation which I can address ?

I scoured the site but can't find any clear definition as to what the term 'charges' actually refers to.

 

If I've got that bit right, is this the subject of this thread ie are these the charges referred to ?

Thanx for any clarification.

[lexis200]

Hi:)

 

Charges are fees that the bank levies if you run your account any way other than how the terms state you can. IE - going over your overdraft may flag a charge, as would having d/d returned, late/missed payments (for a credit card).

 

If I understand what you're saying, I don't think it's quite right. As far as I understand (and overdrafts aren't an area I'm too comfortable with, so clarification will be needed), you'd have to have had a penalty charge at some point, which it doesn't sound like you have.

 

Once you have that penalty charge, they then charge you interest on the whole balance, including that penalty. As they have been taken as unlawful in recent years, that means any interest added as a result of that unlawful penalty is also unlawful and must be accounted for.

 

I'm not sure that just the normal interest applied to a well run account are anything dodgy.

 

Someone'll be able to answer more certainly soon, but I think that's along the right lines.

[JonCris]

Claiming should include charges + ALL interest + reciprocal interest (based on their DEFAULT interest charges to you) + a further 8% from date of your demand until paid COMPOUNDED:D. If they refuse recalculate using the reciprocal rate updating it regularly as each day passes

 

ALL interest should be compounded

Edited November 2, 2009 by JonCris

[carnation]

Hi i'm sorry if I keep popping in differnt sections but I am looking for an answer to my bank charges. In 2008 I applied for reund of that year as I now owe £1400 in charges, since then I have received statements back to 2001 I want to also claim back on these. The Lloyds have given me a ref No. & said they will let me know after the test case but now I want to add more. Do I just write to them or is it more technical & how do I word it? I read somewhere that some cases have been turned down because they were worded unfair bank charges & should of been penalties or is it vice-versa.

[danielr]

uncomfortably numb.

 

if you've never gone outside of your overdraft, or had a DD returned, a cheque bounce etc then you won't have incurred any charge.

 

using your agree'd over draft with the agree'd interest is perfectly fine, and there are no unjust charges to refund.

 

if you've had a cheque bounce, and been charged for that, or had a DD returned and they've charged for that, or you've gone outside of your agreed overdraft limit and have been charged for that then these are the charges that you can reclaim.

 

this is because the banks should only charge a reasonable administration figure, realistically you can say that a realistic figure is something like £12, that's the amount of time you're paying for your bank to write you a letter to let you know.

 

if you've been charged £20 for going over plus a further £20 per transaction thereafter that month. plus a higher rate of interest. plus a daily charge.

that's the bit that's unfair, and arguably sets up a cycle since you're loosing hundreds each month you;re always being forced into your overdraft

[UncomfortablyNumb]

Many thanx to lexis200 & danielr for the clarification. Now I understand what I'm reading.

As you both correctly interpreted I have had no charges applied at any time for the items you mention.

This is purely because my Halifax OD agreed limit is just under £5000 and as such I have had plenty of leeway.

My Halifax Reward ? for being such a loyal customer and conducting my account 'impeccably' as the local manager recently put it.

An overnite doubling of the interest rate !!! See other thread.

Sorry, of course we don't call it interest anymore, that would raise to many eyebrows. It is of course a daily fee or some such other legal loophole allowing blatant extortion.

As such a valued customer I fall into the £2 a day scheme (£60/62 pcm)

instead of the current £27 pcm and am looking at my various options.

Thanks again for your help and will now return to the correct thread.

BTW lexis200 I like the 'chocolate' bit. At the moment anything which makes me laugh is wecolmed.

[car2403]

Claiming should include charges + ALL interest + reciprocal interest (based on their DEFAULT interest charges to you) + a further 8% from date of your demand until paid COMPOUNDED:D. If they refuse recalculate using the reciprocal rate updating it regularly as each day passes

 

ALL interest should be compounded

 

Just to make sure, you can claim:

 

1. charges

2. any interest added to the charges

3. 8% interest on both 1 and 2 when you file in court

 

The interest that is applied is simple interest until payment or judgment, not compounded interest. (Which would include interest on the interest)

[JonCris]

Just to make sure, you can claim:

 

1. charges

2. any interest added to the charges

3. 8% interest on both 1 and 2 when you file in court

 

The interest that is applied is simple interest until payment or judgment, not compounded interest. (Which would include interest on the interest)

 

You CAN also charge a reciprocal compound interest rate based on whatever their charges are to you AND you can also compound the 8%

 

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[JonCris]

Just to make sure, you can claim:

 

1. charges

2. any interest added to the charges

3. 8% interest on both 1 and 2 when you file in court

 

The interest that is applied is simple interest until payment or judgment, not compounded interest. (Which would include interest on the interest)

 

You CAN also charge a reciprocal compound interest rate based on whatever their charges are to you AND you can also compound the 8%

[danielr]

You CAN also charge a reciprocal compound interest rate based on whatever their charges are to you AND you can also compound the 8%

this is one of the questions that i asked earlier.

 

Hypothetically, I'l illustrate this to see if it ties in with what you're saying

 

the bank takes say £100

and the over draft interest is 10%, savers interest is say 3% (for example)

 

are you saying that they charge

 

100

+10 = 110

+11 = 121

+12 = 133

 

So I've been charged 133, (£100 charge + £33 interest)

 

but I can charge

100 + 3

+10 + 3.03 = 116

+11 + 3.05 = 130

+12 + 3.1 = 145.18

(£100 + £33 interest + £12 (interest at 3%))

 

 

is this correct for what you are saying?

 

basically I can charge them interest on the amount that they've borrowed from me.

(I had suggested that the BoE base rate might be used as the banks would be agreeing to this interest rate for any other borrowing that they did).

[caro]

You CAN also charge a reciprocal compound interest rate based on whatever their charges are to you AND you can also compound the 8%

 

I understood that section 69 interest could not be compounded.

 

From the County Courts Act:

 

(1)Subject to [F1rules of court], in proceedings (whenever instituted) before a county court for the recovery of a debt or damages there may be included in any sum for which judgment is given simple interest, at such rate as the court thinks fit or as may be prescribed, on all or any part of the debt or damages in respect of which judgment is given, or payment is made before judgment, for all or any part of the period between the date when the cause of action arose and—

(a)in the case of any sum paid before judgment, the date of the payment; and

(b)in the case of the sum for which judgment is given, the date of the judgment.

 

County Courts Act 1984 (c. 28)

[JonCris]

I understood that section 69 interest could not be compounded.

 

From the County Courts Act:

 

 

 

County Courts Act 1984 (c. 28)

 

As a result of recent case law involving HMRC & the repayment of incorrectly collected VAT it can be compounded.

 

08 September 2009

Investment trusts could be in line for a large windfall if new cases surrounding VAT are successful.

A case being brought by PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) is expected to challenge HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) to pay back VAT to investment trusts for the four years between 1997 and 2001, and could net investment trusts £100 million.

Another case in the courts could boost the amounts investment trusts receive even further by entitling them to compound interest on top of the VAT repayments they have already received.

Both cases would, if successful, build on the victory the Association of Investment Companies (AIC) secured against HMRC in 2007.

That victory stopped HMRC from levying VAT on the investment management of investment trusts, bringing their taxation treatment in line with that of Oeics.

It also enabled investment trusts to claim back the VAT levied on investment management stretching back to 2001, as well as for the period between 1990 and 1997.

The PwC case, which is expected to challenge HMRC to repay VAT for the four-year gap between those two periods, is thought to be imminent and is being backed by the M&G Equity and M&G High Income investment trusts.

But investment trusts could be entitled to far more if it is established that compound interest is due on repaid VAT. ‘It could multiply the amount by between five and 10 times. £1 million could become £10 million,’ said Martin Sharratt, head of VAT at Smith & Williamson.

A high court judge ruled in May that compound interest was due, although the claimants in that case, a group of car dealerships, lost the case because they were out of time.

That ruling was expected to prompt a raft of claims. AIC acting director general Ian Sayers (pictured) said a number of investment trusts had already lodged claims, including investment trust specialist Baillie Gifford.

Investment trust analyst John Newlands at Brewin Dolphin said investment trusts were right to pursue the case.

‘This sort of equality is essential with the forthcoming retail distribution review, where people will be looking more at closed-ended funds,’ he said.

A number of investment trusts made claims for VAT repayment in 2004. When the AIC won its case in 2007, those trusts were then entitled to repayments stretching back to 2001 due to a three year cap on retrospective claims imposed by the government.

But a House of Lords ruling that a similar three year cap imposed for periods prior to 1997 was not valid also allowed them to claim back the VAT levied on them before that year.

[caro]

My understanding is that section 69 interest is intended for cases where there's no other interest claimed, but if you're claiming compound contractual interest then that isn't the case. What you've posted here doesn't convince me (much as I'd like it to).

 

I've asked other site team members for an opinion on this as it's been a while since I've looked at the CI issue in detail.

[ukaviator]

I have been successful, amongst others, at claiming Compound Interest on the charges, s.69 interest on the charges and s.69 on contractual interest. There is a spreadsheet for that somewhere i will have a look for it.

 

Here it is:

 

http://www.shweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/interestcalcs.xls

Edited November 3, 2009 by ukaviator

[Martynandemma]

what interest does this calculate ?

 

is it a calculator for compound interest ?

[Fenris]

I have been successful, amongst others, at claiming Compound Interest on the charges, s.69 interest on the charges and s.69 on contractual interest. There is a spreadsheet for that somewhere i will have a look for it.

 

Here it is:

 

http://www.shweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/interestcalcs.xls

 

I've been trying to get my head around this for weeks now (I was always rubbish at maths!) so excuse my ignorance, but will this spreadsheet just "do it for me"? If I just type in all the charges and the date I was charged, will it calculate all the interest plus interest in restitution and compound interest and make a me a cup of tea and bring me a Bourbon biscuit? Sorry, got carried away there for a moment. Ahem, will it just stop my eyeballs bleeding? Because, no matter how hard I try, I simply cannot get my head around all the different types of interest! Slick has advised me to claim back all charges with interest in restitution from Barclaycard and I'm hoping someone's going to say yes, this spreadsheet is what you need!

[Martynandemma]

me too!!

 

I have a capital one claim just waiting to go just need to get the right spreadsheet.

 

Will someone please tell me !! a simple yes or no

[caro]

me too!!

 

I have a capital one claim just waiting to go just need to get the right spreadsheet.

 

Will someone please tell me !! a simple yes or no

 

If only it was that easy. I've been on this site for over 3 and a half years and looking at this issue, and I'm still not confident of what can be claimed. :-|

[Fenris]

If only it was that easy. I've been on this site for over 3 and a half years and looking at this issue, and I'm still not confident of what can be claimed. :-|

 

I think, with the last few posts (mine included), all we want to know if if the spreadsheet that ukaviator has linked to will be suitable for claiming back intest with restitution, if that's the correct phrase? I've used the spreadsheet and have posted the result in my BC thread and two people have both said it seems about the right amount for the period I'm claiming. But it would be helpful to know that this is the correct spreadsheet before I start trying to get this money back from BC.

[caro]

Restitution has nothing to do with interest and, as I understand it, is entirely down to the judge to decide the amount.