Rockwell/Tessera/Pheonix claimform - old First Direct OD

[Miss_cake]

Hi,

 

I am new to the site and need some advice regarding the above agency.

 

Some 10 years ago I was made redundant resulting in my having to visit the local CAB and make arrangements to pay back my creditors.

 

I have cleared most of my debts but Rockwell have been chasing me for payment of two accounts and because I was confused by the amount of debts after my redundancy I set up payments from my bank account to clear them. Some 2 or 3 years later the debts don't appear to be reducing and because I am in a much less vulnerable position I have questioned what the debts are for.

 

I sent a CCA letter with the statutory £1 postal order for each of the accounts 10 days ago and have received a letter from them today stating that the accounts relate to a current account which is not regulated under the CCA and they have returned one of my postal orders.

 

They are stating that the debt is owed to Pheonix Recoveries UK Ltd SARL Tessera (HSBC) and I can honestly say I have never heard of them or held an HSBC account. They have enclosed a printed statement which to me appears to be off their own system, with no company logo and they are demanding that I continue to make monthly payments but will review my account in the next 6 months.

 

Is it true that a bank account isn't covered by a CCA? I can only think it relates to a bank account that was overdrawn with First Direct from the days of my redundancy when I agreed to pay the amount back to Metropolitan Collections.

 

I don't think I did the right thing organising to pay these people because they are now calling me continuously and sending threatening letters.

 

I am completely at a loss as to where to go now or whether I should reinstate the payments.

 

Any advice greatly appreciated.

[harrassed senior]

Hi and Welcome

 

I think you would need to send a SAR request to HSBC. This requests that they send you any and all information that they have in connection with you and any accounts you had with them. This will need to be sent with a Postal Order for £10 and they have 40 days to comply.

 

In the meantime you could write a letter to Rockwell outlining what you have said above and state that until they, or HSBC can prove that you owe any money you will be witholding any further payments.

 

I am sure if this information is not correct, others with more expertise will be along soon to point you in the right directions.

 

A Bank Account as such is not covered by the CCA route.

[Miss_cake]

Thanks very much for the advice 'Harrassed Senior', I will do as suggested.

[GamekeeperToPoacher]

Hi Miss cake,

 

Welcome.

 

As Rockwell have threatened, I assume, legal action it might be another idea to use CPR to find out what information they hold on you. After all if they decided to go to court they would still have to prove a debt. If that is not the case then I am off to sue all and sundry to raise enough for my second Ferrari.

 

GK

[Miss_cake]

Hi GK,

 

Apologies for being dense but what exactly is CPR?

[GamekeeperToPoacher]

Hi Miss C

 

I must apologise we all started where you are now some including me are not that much further on.

 

CPR are the Civil Procedures Rules (lots of) the simplest way to look at them is to go to this thread by PT where you will find lots of information.

 

regards

 

GK

[Miss_cake]

Hi All,

 

Further to the above I submitted an SAR to HSBC as suggested and received a reply back with my postal order because they couldn't find any information on me based on the information provided (which was my name and address plus the account number that Rockwell use).

 

I immediately wrote to the DCA to advise that I would be recovering all monies paid to them in respect of this debt because I have never held an HSBC a/c and they have responded today by stating that it was an HSBC a/c ..the date it was opened and that HSBC sold the debt to Pheonix Recoveries???

 

They have given me a whole host of information (mostly just printed off their own system by the looks of it) but there is a notice of assignment letter which they reckon they sent to me but it's not signed etc.

 

They have advised me that they have given me all their records/data that they hold on me although I haven't requested an SAR from them and they should really be charging me £10 (big of them)but although I have been paying them for at least 2 years, it's only now that I have gotten my life back together after redundancy that I am questioning the debt.

 

Their records do indeed show payments and calls made where I have panicked and made arrangements with them and they have stated that "the statement of payments enclosed and your several acceptances of the debt confirms and admits your liability".

 

They have also kindly enclosed details on their complaints procedure if I am not happy and also a leaflet on how to complain to the financial ombudsman.

 

Help! I am not sure what to do now, do I ignore the information or do I respond? Can anyone advise me please?

 

Many thanks

[Bazooka Boo]

I sent a CCA letter with the statutory £1 postal order for each of the accounts 10 days ago and have received a letter from them today stating that the accounts relate to a current account which is not regulated under the CCA and they have returned one of my postal orders.

 

Current Accounts as such don't come under the CCA.

However an Overdraft which is an unrestricted use running credit account as defined in the CCA, they are exempt from the formal requirement for a signed agreement with the usual prescribed terms, so a CCA request isn't likely to get you very far.

 

So a 'Full S.A.R' and you do need to emphasise the 'FULL' bit else they may miss relevant bits out. You should be able to get a statement of account with a copy of the original letter which outlines the terms of the overdraft, the overdraft limit, the rate of interest, and the repayment terms.

 

Take a look at this previous thread:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/118158-overdraft-can-i-cca.html

 

 

I'm assuming that most of the debt is quite likely bank charges? If so take a look here at the relevant letter templates and begin to claim them back:D

[Miss_cake]

Thanks Bazooka,

 

I did request a 'full' SAR from HSBC but they couldn't provide a thing although now I have received the SAR info free gratis from Rockwell there is another a/c no quoted so I might try it again with HSBC.

 

Am I liable to continue to pay this alledged debt to Rockwell?

 

Thanks

 

Miss C

[havinastella]

Thanks Bazooka,

 

I did request a 'full' SAR from HSBC but they couldn't provide a thing although now I have received the SAR info free gratis from Rockwell there is another a/c no quoted so I might try it again with HSBC.

 

Am I liable to continue to pay this alledged debt to Rockwell?

 

Thanks

 

Miss C

 

 

NO!!!!!!!!!!! STOP PAYING NOW!

 

They can't even find your account details and have never proved you owe them a penny.

 

I would send them a letter before action for a refund of all monies paid.

 

Give them 14 days and then make sure you issue court papers for a full refund!

 

Why would you pay someone when they have no legal right at all to demand money from you.

 

JOgs

[2Grumpy]

Their records do indeed show payments and calls made where I have panicked and made arrangements with them and they have stated that "the statement of payments enclosed and your several acceptances of the debt confirms and admits your liability".

 

They have also kindly enclosed details on their complaints procedure if I am not happy and also a leaflet on how to complain to the financial ombudsman.

 

Being panicked into paying when you are vulnerable does not confirm liability. It just shows what a trusting person you are.

 

Bank overdrafts are covered by the CCA 1974, just differently to other forms of credit.

 

Use their complaints procedure. Until that is exhausted you cannot complain to the financial ombudsman.

 

Did HSBC say that they had no record of you at all or no record under that account number? The DCA might be using their own reference number rather than the original account number.

 

Is the letter of assignment on HSBC headed paper?

 

The DCA might have bought a debt and claim that it is an overdraft (where no agreement is required) when it is really some other form of credit (e.g. a store card) where there was no prospect of finding the CCA or where they don't know what the debt was for.

 

It might also be some-one elses debt!

 

The DCA should be able to produce evidence of the debt before they bought it to prove that it is yours.

 

If they could prove that it was your debt, they would also have to show (if you asked) that there were no unlawful charges applied by the original creditor or themselves.

 

When this is over, keep your letter from HSBC in a safe place for at least 6 years in case the DCA has another attempt at collecting in the future.

[Miss_cake]

Thanks for the advice Havinastella & 2Grumpy,

 

HSBC to quote, state: "In response to your recent application for the provision of personal data I confirm that we are unable to locate information held about you within the registration that you requested to be searched. I have therefore returned your Postal Order for £10.00".

 

I feel 2Grumpy may be correct and it's the DCA reference that I have quoted. I am resubmitting the full SAR letter and PO to HSBC quoting the other account number that the DCA have on their paperwork to see if they come up with something.

 

The letter of assignment from the DCA is very suspicious, it is on standard photocopy paper, no company logo with COPY stamped on it, which is probably something which they have produced, it's not even signed!

 

I will also commence their complaints procedure, once I have a further response from HSBC I will then send the letter before action to recover monies from the DCA.

 

Thanks Guys

 

Miss C

[2Grumpy]

I would try asking for "including but not limited to account no xxxxxxx" to get all possible data or a complete denial of you.

 

I would also ask HSBC if they have checked with any other data controllers in their organisation - for example their credit organisation that may hold information about you

 

There are 97 entries for HSBC in the ICO database! including:

 

Registration Number: Z8762742

Date Registered: 23 September 2004 Registration Expires: 22 September 2009

 

Data Controller: HSBC FINANCE LIMITED

 

Address:

NORTH STREET

WINKFIELD

WINDSOR

BERKSHIRE

SL4 4TD

 

I'm not sure whether a SAR addressed to HSBC Bank PLC would include all the rest

[Miss_cake]

Hi Guys,

The saga continues i'm afraid, after my last post on here I didn't receive anything till yesterday. I have now got County Court papers served on me via Southend for the alleged debt to HSBC.

 

I did previously send the DCA a copy of the letter from HSBC stating I wasnt their customer but they have obviously ignored it.

 

I also sent a SAR to First Direct in 2009 and it would appear that this is the account which the DCA state I owe money on. I did indeed have a current account with FD but my overdraft limit was £500 and as part of the SAR they sent me a printed statement showing the account was closed in 2002 with a zero balance.

 

However, it appears that they have included a credit card debt within this current account which I assume is this debt for £1K which Rockwell/Tessera/Pheonix are adamant they are going to get off me.

 

Can they recover a debt from First Direct using the HSBC name especially when it was approx 9 years ago? As mentioned previously I was a complete mess when I was made redundant and because I don't like debt I paid anybody who said I owed them so I was paying the DCA up till 2009.

 

When I have questioned this debt in the past the DCA said it was a current account and as such there is no written agreement, however it would appear that it is a Credit card placed on my current account.

 

I am terrified, how is this likely to go? I have put in defence papers and a copy of the letter from HSBC saying I am not their customer and also sent the court a copy of the statement showing the nil balance but I have been reading so many horror stories about judges ruling in the DCA's favour.

 

I do not stand a chance if they do not have to prove anything, my last letter to the DCA said I was disputing and do not acknowledge the debt but they are willing to completely destroy my good credit name. Are there any tips on fighting this? I am so shocked because I thought if you disputed a debt they cannot recover the monies.

Thanks for reading my rambling

Miss_cake

[Bazooka Boo]

You should perhaps click the black triangle and ask one of the site team to move this thread to the legal forum, seeing as they have now served you papers, albeit, very foolishly IMO.

[Miss_cake]

Thanks Bazooka, have done so and hope that somebody gives me the much needed advice.

[cerberusalert]

Thread moved to Legal Forum and title updated.

[42man]

OK...can you list the POC's (Particluars Of The Claim) but don't be too precise with the amounts or dates.....

[Miss_cake]

Hi,

Particulars of claim are that they are claiming an amount from me due under an account number(the two references are the DCA's and the old First Direct Account number.

That is all that is on the court paperwork. All very woolly.

In reality I have letters from the DCA confirming the account is a current account but on obtaining the SAR from First Direct they have added my old Credit card debt(which I believed I had paid years ago) to my FD current account number.

I have filled in the court papers denying the debt and have counter claimed, I have sent the courts a copy of the FD historical statement showing zero and a copy of the letter from HSBC which denies all knowledge of me (this is because DCA insist it was a HSBC current a/c) and also a copy of the DCA letter asking me to pay the current a/c.

As previously mentioned I was stupid enough to pay two a/cs via the DCA until 2009 when I questioned why I was paying them so being honest and trustworthyhas obviously done me no favours. Let me know if you need more info and thank you.

[42man]

Have you requested anything under the civil procedure rules ? - take a look here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?241827-Legal-Action-how-to-start-off.-IMPORTANT-IF-YOURE-BEING-SUED

[Miss_cake]

Thanks 42man - very useful

[Miss_cake]

Hi,

I have constructed a lettter using CPR 18 for disclosure of POC and any evidence which they intend to use but i am getting so confused. Should I have been using CPR31.14?

 

They both seem very similar and I don't want to look a compete idiot.

 

Please advise asap

Thanks

[42man]

CPR31.14 is the best to use...

[42man]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?159445-Getting-Them-To-Reveal-Their-Vitals.-Using-CPR-31.14-to-Your-Advantage

[Miss_cake]

Thanks, just to clarify that the POC on the claim form is minimal to say the least and doesn't quote any documents which is where I was getting confused with the CPR 18 - I understood this was to be used for thoss circumstances and CPR 31.14 for sight of documents quoted on claim forms.

 

Head is in bits - just had a bereavement and could do without this added pressure.

Thankss for your help so far 42man and I am sure it will all get really messy