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    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
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      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.


      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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constructive dismissal..... please help

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I have outlined the details of the situation below


On Thursday 7th May of I gave my employer a letter to request a grievance meeting and asked for a response within 7 days


The grievance is about his wife and landlady stating in a managers meeting on Wednesday 6th May that she "would do anything in her power to get me out of my job", and "will make life very difficult for me" and "promise I would be out within 5 months".


I had suspected that there were some constructive dismissal issues for several weeks, but her angry rant has confirmed this possibility.


On the evening of Friday 8th as I left work at 10pm I was given a letter by the employer asking me to attend a disciplinary meeting on Monday11th at 10am.... to "discuss my attitude towards the business manager"


I requested more time to arrange representation which he agreed to, and extended to Wednesday 13th at 4.30pm


At the disciplinary meeting I was informed that it concerned my attitude towards the landlord himself , not his wife. He stated that even though for the past 2 years we had had a very open relationship and 1 or 2 heated debates which in his words “ were a man to man talk, that is good for the soul”. He now believed that my attitude at times was disrespectful towards him. He claimed that 1. I kissed my teeth (tutted) at him during one conversation, and in one discussion regarding removal of money from my wages without prior notice found my manner deeply insulting. I am still awaiting written confirmation of the outcome of the meeting…which I will be appealing as I believe he has exaggerated situations to enable the beginning the 3 stage procedure.


On Thurs 14th May 7 days after I had requested the grievance meeting I received a letter advising me that he had arranged a meeting on Wed 20 May. It seems strange that he can arrange a disciplinary in 2 days but takes 13 days to organise a grievance!!


I have been employed as a non-contracted head chef for 2 years... with no disciplinary matters on my record.


They have no published discipline procedure and I have not had a contract which lays out a procedure in the two years that I have worked for them.


In that time I have had an exemplary record, never had a sick day. I have also moved the business forward with consistently creative menus and theme evenings in able to enhance trade, local reputation and profitability


The only issues that affect my relationship with this person are


1. In the aforementioned meeting I said that I "didn't respect her opinion" on a certain subject which she took huge offence to.


2. I mentioned 2 weeks ago to the owners my desire to set up my own personal chef venture, which they responded to positively. But I do believe that has now raised questions of loyalty in her mind,


3. She is the kind of person who uses others to suit her own needs, and has confided with me in the past that "... if anybody crosses her she will make sure they never cross her again"


I do appreciate that they may feel that my contribution has run its course, and in some areas I'm sure they feel that I have become too big for my boots...but to express her desire to "get me out" in such insulting terms leads me to fear that constructive dismissal is inevitable.


I am not in a position financially to resign from job at the present time, and really have no wish to.


But this behaviour and my fear of further difficulties has made for a very uncomfortable working environment, I have had 2or 3 sleepless nights and the first thought when I wake in the morning is about her comments.


As my attitude towards the landlady was not deemed a disciplinary matter and then considering her reaction to it, do you believe that if I do not receive a full apology and retraction of the statements I should tender my resignation and then claim unfair dismissal at tribunal.


Also is the threat of this action to the employee grounds enough to claim constructive dismissal or does there have to be proof of actual physical action?


Thankyou for taking the time to read this, your thoughts and advise will be greatly appreciated

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Anybody, somebody please .....is the threat of this action to the employee grounds enough to claim constructive dismissal or does there have to be proof of actual physical action?

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203 views and not one reply very strange:confused:....anyway ive had to wait 13 days for my grievance meeting and its finally arrived tommorrow, still havent got written confirmation of my disciplinary last week either!!.... if i dont get a retraction of statements and apology from the landlady i think im only left with 1 choice.

Anyone kind enough to share their thoughts?

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I'm sorry I can't help rum, but I can tell you I too have a similar decision to make. I know nothing about employment law, never had a day out of work in 30 years! Know nothing about benefits either for that matter! But I have bookmarked this thread because there's a fantastic person on here called Elche and another I've noticed - (JasonF?) and they both know their stuff in these matters. I see Old Andrew 2007 watching, he might be kind enough to notify them for us! Cos I don;t know how to do that either!


From what I've read on here and other sites, constructive dismissal is a bit of a bugger to prove, but in my case I feel I actually have enough written evidence to show both outright bullying and an attempt to set me up for a fall for someone else's mismanagement, and also I believe defamation comes into it a bit here too.


So hopefully, someone will come along and help the pair of us with a teach in on constructive dismissal!


Good luck and I'll keep my fingers crossed for you in the meantime!

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Hope all goes well today, but before you resign please make sure that you have physical evidence to support your claim for constructive dismissal - if it's your word against theirs it will be very difficult to prove.

Poppynurse :)


If my comments have been helpful please click my scales!!!!

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Thankyou for the thoughts and advise, it really helps...i believe that in this current economic climate there will be plenty of employers in a situation where they may need to "trim" their workforce.

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Well....i have had my grievance eventually today. Below is the txt of my statement.


I wish to raise a grievance in regard to threats that were made to me by the business part owner namely Mrs X

Two weeks ago at approx the same time and same place we had a heated discussion regarding working hours on Village Festival day.

I was making myself clear of the desire and reasons I wanted to be involved in a community environment this year as appose to the last 2 years when I have been in the kitchen at all day.

Then Mrs X commented “what s the problem you get paid for it don’t you”

I replied…”I didn’t expect you to understand, and I don’t respect your opinion anyway”

At that point Mrs X replied…..” why don’t you just f off and leave now”

“You’ve been a chef for 20 yrs you will never get a job like this again”

At this point Mrs X was standing and shouting loudly at me “I will do everything possible to ensure you are out of your job soon” and that she “would make it so difficult for me and I promise you will be out within 5 months”.

The only comment I made at this point was that “she was out of order and couldn’t say those things”

Ever since then there has been no communication between myself and Mrs X.

I have had several sleepless nights and most mornings the first thought in my head when I wake is my precarious position at work… I believe that I have done very little to deserve such treatment in fact the hard work, honesty and commitment that i have shown towards Mrs X business deserves me slightly more respect than that.

I require a full retraction of her statements and an apology to be able to move on positively with the task of trying to make the business grow as it has been over the past 2 years that I have been head chef.


It didnt go well im in a total daze and starting to lose faith in human nature.

She firstly totally ignored the statement and asked me "why i continued to work for some one i didnt respect..it all went down hill from there.

She firstly denied saying any of the above except the f off bit, and said that it was me that was lying and she had never said those words.

When i asked her husband and landlord if he denied she said those words he said that "there was a situation at hand and a heated argument but did not remember Mrs X saying those words.He looked very uncomfortable!

My witness was nearly in tears on leaving the meeting, because it was so obvious what they where doing.

Im really unsure now, i cant afford to resign my job, single father with 2 young children, but there is no trust left now. I understand why she lied and understand why he has to support her.

Do i have any hope of claiming constructive dismissal?..its obvious that is what she intends.

How bout negotiating a compromise dismissal?

Unfortunately there is no other witness to her threats at me


Please advise if you can.:-(

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Hi Rum,


Sorry you had to wait so long intially for a reply.


Anyway, CD is always a tricky claim to bring, and in your case it would appear that you are going to have serious evidential difficulties.


An employee can resign in the face of an anticipatoty breach,and then attempt to claim CD - which would cover your case, but as you can imagine, this presents even more evidential difficulties as you have to prove a reasonable belief that your employer intended to breach your contract at some unspecified time in the near future. You don't have to be legally trained to understand the difficulties that such a claim would bring.


One route to go down, would be to, in anticipation of the breach, link this to the enforcement of a statutory right, e.g. submit a grievance because you have not received a contract within 8 weeks as stipulated by s.1 ERA 1996.


I'm afraid that I seldom advise client's to resign and claim CD. Furthermore I would never advise this if you need the money / job as you say you do.


Perhaps for now, you could consider submitting the grievance re the contract, as if you could link any future dismissal to this, such a dismissal would be automatically unfair.



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...................................................................... [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Please post on a thread before sending a PM. My opinion's are not expressed as agent or representative of The Consumer Action Group. Always seek professional advice from a qualified legal adviser before acting. If I have helped you please feel free to click on the black star.[/FONT] [FONT=Comic Sans MS] I am sorry that work means I don't get into the Employment Forum as often as I would like these days, but nonetheless I'll try to pop in when I can.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial Black][FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=Red]'Venceremos' :wink:[/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT]

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Elche, are there any good sites Rum and I could have a look at? Specifically about constructive dismissal? I'd love to read some cases about this but can't seem to find any. I have plenty of time for reading over the next few weeks. Not hi-jacking - honest - I shall be sorting mine out privately I expect, because posting on here would easily identify me to my employer, but I do want to support Rum too!


He's as bitter and twisted about it all as I am! Gets you like that though don't it?! :-x



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I'd love to read some cases about this but can't seem to find any.



I have sent a little bit to you via PM


But googling any of these cases will enlighten you,m as regards CD;


Western Excavating (ECC) Ltd v Sharp , [1978] ICR 221,


Stephenson & Co (Oxford) Ltd v Austin [1990] ICR 609, EAT


They should do for a start






...................................................................... [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Please post on a thread before sending a PM. My opinion's are not expressed as agent or representative of The Consumer Action Group. Always seek professional advice from a qualified legal adviser before acting. If I have helped you please feel free to click on the black star.[/FONT] [FONT=Comic Sans MS] I am sorry that work means I don't get into the Employment Forum as often as I would like these days, but nonetheless I'll try to pop in when I can.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial Black][FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=Red]'Venceremos' :wink:[/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT]

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Elche..thankyou for your reply, im slightly confused as to the benefit of raising a grievance re no contract. Could you please clarify

As ive been employed by them for 2 years i have same rights as a contracted employee..and will it not just get their back up more to request a contract at this late stage?

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