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    • Agree completely.  What is disturbing is that VCS actually went for an appeal, the motorists were too lazy to turn up so Simon now has an appeal level verdict in his favour.
    • There were a number of matters that concern me in Judge Saffman's verdict. The first is  that you cannot form a contract with a forbidding  rule. This was not the case in PE v Beavis as it was within the bounds of a carpark where motorists were allowed to park their cars.  Also if a motorist who does stop when apparently they shouldn't is therefore a trespasser and as such VCS cannot sue for trespass only the landowner can do that. Secondly and the Judges in the Beavis case alluded to the fact that while the amount charged -£85- was not a penalty, that had he offence been one of secondary importance then the charge would have been a penalty.To pull off the road for 30 seconds would in most people's view be of secondary importance and therefore a penalty. It is interesting to note that the new Appeals charter for motorists will include mitigating reasons and a tiered system to differentiate between major and minor offences.  On top of that what does a driver do if a pedestrian walks out on to the road. At the moment it looks as if the driver has to run them over since to stop would bring on a fine. That would be ridiculous. And what about a tyre burst or a collision between two vehicles? The Law for the latter  is that you have to stop and exchange details. And there are several other reasons why a motorist may have to stop and none of them would be mitigating. And for every case where a "no stopping" rule has been upheld by a Judge, there have been about  five where the decision has gone the other way.   The Judge paid too much attention to the Beavis case and took its arguments into consideration to justify his reasons when the Beavis case had little similarity to the no stopping case which was confirmed by the District Judge who staed that the two cases "were substantially different on the facts".  
    • Ok I sent off my letter to Gladstone and MB, now the waiting game. I showed MSE and National Consumer Service my letter before claim response and the majority people were not impressed with my letter.   But after reading this quote on CAG, it feels like the next best approach regardless: ''No, it is not a joke reply. The more you show these con artists respect the more they will try to fleece you. Don't fill in their Section D. Treat them with contempt. They're not the police or the council, they have no right to this money and they know it.''   I still feel I've made the right decision but I feel doubtful at times with the wide amount of different opinions people have approaching this situation on the MSE and National Consumer Service forums.   (When I put in p.e.p.i.p.o.o it auto corrects to National Consumer Service)  
    • Exactly which is the core issue for the dispute they have estimated an annual usage in excess of 100,000 kWh of gas. Not only estimate it but they have attempted to bill for it as well.   This is again why I move to make a case for fraud. Their action is so egriegous it must be known to be dishonest and potentially a deliberate move to prevent switching supplier.   Therefore any corrective action does not hinge on my input, notwithstanding it is not required in their terms and conditions.
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      It all started mid summer during lockdown when they refused to service our boiler because we didn't have a loft ladder or flooring installed despite the fact AS installed the boiler. and had previosuly serviced it without issue for 4yrs. After consulting with an independent installer I was informed that if this was the case then ASG had breached building regulations,  this was duly reported to Gas Safe to investigate and even then ASG refused to accept blame and repeatedly said it was my problem. Anyway Gas Safe found them in breach of building regs and a compromise was reached.
       
      A month later and ASG attended to service our boiler but in the process left the boiler unusuable as it kept losing pressure not to mention they had damaged the filling loop in the process which they said was my responsibilty not theres and would charge me to repair, so generous of them! Soon after reporting the fault I got a letter stating it was time we arranged a powerflush on our heating system which they make you do after 5 years even though there's nothing in the contract that states this. Coincidence?
       
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      The boiler was removed and replaced by a reputable installer,  and the old boiler was returned to ASG thus ending our contract with them. What's mad is I saved in excess of £1000 in the long run and got a new boiler with a brand new 12yr warranty. 
       
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    • Dazza a few months ago I discovered a good friend of mine who had ten debts with cards and catalogues which he was slavishly paying off at detriment to his own family quality of life, and I mean hardship, not just absence of second holidays or flat screen TV's.
       
      I wrote to all his creditors asking for supporting documents and not one could provide any material that would allow them to enforce the debt.
       
      As a result he stopped paying and they have been unable to do anything, one even admitted it was unenforceable.
       
      If circumstances have got to the point where you are finding it unmanageable you must ask yourself why you feel the need to pay.  I guarantee you that these companies have built bad debt into their business model and no one over there is losing any sleep over your debt to them!  They will see you as a victim and cash cow and they will be reluctant to discuss final offers, only ways to keep you paying with threats of court action or seizing your assets if you have any.
       
      They are not your friends and you owe them no loyalty or moral duty, that must remain only for yourself and your family.
       
      If it was me I would send them all a CCA request.   I would bet that not one will provide the correct response and you can quite legally stop paying them until such time as they do provide a response.   Even when they do you should check back here as they mostly send dodgy photo copies or generic rubbish that has no connection with your supposed debt.
       
      The money you are paying them should, as far as you are able, be put to a savings account for yourself and as a means of paying of one of these fleecers should they ever manage to get to to the point of a successful court judgement.  After six years they will not be able to start court action and that money will then become yours.
       
      They will of course pursue you for the funds and pass your file around various departments of their business and out to third parties.
       
      Your response is that you should treat it as a hobby.  I have numerous files of correspondence each faithfully organised showing the various letters from different DCA;s , solicitors etc with a mix of threats, inducements and offers.   It is like my stamp collection and I show it to anyone who is interested!
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Hi all,

 

Thank goodness for this site, if this wasn't here I would haven into to the Equita threats long ago!

 

We owe on last years Council Tax, but have sent TomTubbys letter to Equita and Council, and have paid using online methods both this year, and installments of last years.

 

Ok, Equita have visited and left a 24hr notice yesterday. (No entry)

 

No one is at home today, and my wife has been told that Bailiffs may use locksmiths to gain entry. All doors and windows are shut & locked.

 

Surely this is illegal is it not? Is this common practice? Obviously I don't want to return home and find I have no possessions left.

 

Any advice would be gratefully received.

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Have they gained access to your house before and levied? They cannot just turn up with a locksmith as this would be burglery, if they have threatened you with a locksmith then they break the law under the theft acts. Happy Contrails is the best at this sort of thing.

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no they cannot force entry nor use a locksmith.

 

now, question must be asked, if you are paying the council direct online, why are you getting ballliff visits?

 

is this an old one, whereby they did not get their fees and are chancing their luck [a bailliff CANNOT use a liability order to collect their fees}

or is it a new one, that you know nothing about?

 

more info please

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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Bailiffs can only enter by an open door or window or by invitation unless they have a warrant of entry which would have to be issued by magistrates and is only applicable to gas/electricity debts.

 

GK

Edited by GamekeeperToPoacher
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In which case they would be performing a burglery so don't worry about it.

 

there is a nother thread running on this subject, tech its not burglary.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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dx100uk - where is the other thread?

 

by the bailliff i should have said.

its the locksmith that commits the offence.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/199318-wanted-marston-final-notice.html

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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Buy one of these cheap cameras that run off aa batteries and use a sd card as memory. If you in danger then set one up in a corner in which the door is in clear view. If anybody comes in they get caught !!!

So whats cooking today ?

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Hi all,

 

Thank goodness for this site, if this wasn't here I would haven into to the Equita threats long ago!

 

We owe on last years Council Tax, but have sent TomTubbys letter to Equita and Council, and have paid using online methods both this year, and installments of last years.

 

Ok, Equita have visited and left a 24hr notice yesterday. (No entry)

 

No one is at home today, and my wife has been told that Bailiffs may use locksmiths to gain entry. All doors and windows are shut & locked.

 

Surely this is illegal is it not? Is this common practice? Obviously I don't want to return home and find I have no possessions left.

 

Any advice would be gratefully received.

 

 

The problem with these letters is that SOMETIMES the bailiff CAN indeed break in with the assistance of a Locksmith.

 

IF...and ONLY IF a bailiff has PREVIOUSLY been into your home and listed goods on a Walking Possession and you had FAILED to either pay or keep to the agreement then the bailiff company may return to REMOVE those goods that he has PREVIOUSLY levied upon. If you then refuse to allow the bailiff into the property to remove those goods then he can indeed force entry.

 

We receive so many questions like this and have taken many such complains up with the relevant bailiff companies and the normal response is that the bailiff had left the WRONG letter.

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Guest Happy Contrails

The question: Can bailiffs pick locks to gain 'peaceful entry'

 

Unless previous entry is made then the bailiff doesn't need a locksmith, he can just put his boot through the door. Otherwise the answer is No.

 

Picking locks requires tools, carrying these is classed as going equipped to burgle and is an offence under Section 25 of the Theft Act 1968.

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The question: Can bailiffs pick locks to gain 'peaceful entry'

 

Unless previous entry is made then the bailiff doesn't need a locksmith, he can just put his boot through the door. Otherwise the answer is No.

 

Picking locks requires tools, carrying these is classed as going equipped to burgle and is an offence under Section 25 of the Theft Act 1968.

 

I do wonder why we have to use such emotive language as 'put his boot through the door'?

 

Lets go frighten another pensioner or person of a nervous disposition. Many people unaware of the law will now think that it is common for this to happen.

 

How many people have had a door kicked in by a bailiff?

 

GK

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Hi guys,

 

Another horror story, there seems to be no end to it. Gamekeeper, l think the issue was not that the bailiff would kick the door in, but, more likely as in my case get someone to acually open the door and get his foot over the treshold. It has been stated by gamekeeper that even then a bailiff cannot push his way past a person as it is not a peaceful entry. If what has been said here is correct then it is most certainly a criminal offence.

Gustavius

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Just found some interesting stuff relating to your problem.

Police Guidelines for Police and Bailiffs alike (Home Office Guide Lines issued to all forces)

NOT PROTECTIVELY MARKED

11/06/08 6 Force Publication Scheme

8.2 The basic rule for Bailiffs is that that entry should be without force, thus have the right to peaceful entry only. THERE IS NO LEGAL REQUIREMENT BY A DEBTOR TO LET A BAILIFF IN TO THEIR HOME.

8.3 To gain peaceful entry, the Bailiff can walk through a open door, open an unlocked door, climb through an open window, and even climb over a wall or a fence, provided no damage is done in so doing.

8.4 The Bailiff cannot, however, break open a closed but unfastened window or door, open a closed latched window, or USE A LOCKSMITH TO OPEN A DOOR. Use of a landlord's key is also illegal. They cannot force their way past someone at the door, or wedge their foot in a doorway to prevent the door being closed. The protection against forced entry extends to all buildings physically attached to the living premises.

The bailiff can only force an entry when he has a magistrates court's distress warrant for non-payment of FINES and when he has previously gained peaceful entry or was forcefully ejected by the occupant AFTER having gained peaceful entry. Please note that the guidelines also deals with the police involvement why it is a document well worth reading through. You will find it in the consumer forum.

Gustavius

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Just found some interesting stuff relating to your problem.

Police Guidelines for Police and Bailiffs alike (Home Office Guide Lines issued to all forces)

NOT PROTECTIVELY MARKED

11/06/08 6 Force Publication Scheme

8.2 The basic rule for Bailiffs is that that entry should be without force, thus have the right to peaceful entry only. THERE IS NO LEGAL REQUIREMENT BY A DEBTOR TO LET A BAILIFF IN TO THEIR HOME.

8.3 To gain peaceful entry, the Bailiff can walk through a open door, open an unlocked door, climb through an open window, and even climb over a wall or a fence, provided no damage is done in so doing.

8.4 The Bailiff cannot, however, break open a closed but unfastened window or door, open a closed latched window, or USE A LOCKSMITH TO OPEN A DOOR. Use of a landlord's key is also illegal. They cannot force their way past someone at the door, or wedge their foot in a doorway to prevent the door being closed. The protection against forced entry extends to all buildings physically attached to the living premises.

The bailiff can only force an entry when he has a magistrates court's distress warrant for non-payment of FINES and when he has previously gained peaceful entry or was forcefully ejected by the occupant AFTER having gained peaceful entry. Please note that the guidelines also deals with the police involvement why it is a document well worth reading through. You will find it in the consumer forum.

Gustavius

 

Great find!!

, should have a sticky where all this stuff canl be collated

 

Fwog

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Very good!

 

I really meant a sticky that deals with stuff like common questions.....

 

Common question a, Can a bailiff use a locksmith? (see above)

 

" " b, Bailiff levied/clamped my car its not in my name/on HP

 

" " c, I have a letter saying the bailiff will come tomorrow with the four horsemen of the apocalypse and lift my home out of the ground and sell it for 5 groats :):):)

 

Good work all the same,

 

:cool:

 

Fwog

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Wow guys, thank you so much for all of this info. For the record, the Bailiff has not been into the property before, and so presumably he does not have the right to force entry. There is so much fear, Uncertainty and Doubt over what Bailiffs can and cannot do, so much so that my wife was in tears on Friday, until I showed her the posts up until that point. She will be much more confident now.

 

As an update, they did not attend Friday, or indeed over the weekend. I would guess though that they will attend during this week to try their luck.

 

In the mean time, I have written to the Council to request they recover the file back from the Bailiff, because I am paying them, and that I will not let the Bailiff into my property. I don't really hold much hope, and if they refuse, I shall make an appointment to see them in their offices, and try again face to face to persuade them.

 

I'll keep you all informed.

 

Again, many thanks for all of your advice!

 

Wall-e

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Wow guys, thank you so much for all of this info. For the record, the Bailiff has not been into the property before, and so presumably he does not have the right to force entry. There is so much fear, Uncertainty and Doubt over what Bailiffs can and cannot do, so much so that my wife was in tears on Friday, until I showed her the posts up until that point. She will be much more confident now.

 

As an update, they did not attend Friday, or indeed over the weekend. I would guess though that they will attend during this week to try their luck.

 

In the mean time, I have written to the Council to request they recover the file back from the Bailiff, because I am paying them, and that I will not let the Bailiff into my property. I don't really hold much hope, and if they refuse, I shall make an appointment to see them in their offices, and try again face to face to persuade them.

 

I'll keep you all informed.

 

Again, many thanks for all of your advice!

 

Wall-e

 

 

 

 

 

If you go to my thread Bailiff enforcement with police a horrorstory you will find some very useful information provided by several of the caggers. There is also on page 4 a recommended site to look for template letters and other general information.

 

Whatever you do, do not worry and do not give in. Pay your council tax, but, agree on a rate you can afford. Do not let the bailiff inside under any circumstances, HE HAS NO RIGHT TO FORCE HIS WAY IN and that goes even if you open the door and tell him to bugger off. Check the stickies here, there is a place containing Guidelines for Police and Bailiffs.

 

l know it's tough and if you are worried or even afraid, it get's worse, but, please calm down and take a deep breath. You will sort this out and you do get help to do so.

GR

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ok, I have a response from the Council:

 

In law if I recall the account from Equita I am abandoning collection which prevents the Council collecting the debt by other methods should you fail to maintain your proposed payments. If you refuse entry to the bailiff and he is unable to collect the account it will be returned 'refused entry'. At that point I will take account of any payments made direct to the Council and consider your proposal.

I have noted your account that you wish payments to be allocated as instalment with additional payments to come off the arrears.

 

Is this the best I can hope for?

 

Cheers guys.

Wall-e

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Guest Happy Contrails
In law if I recall the account from Equita I am abandoning collection which prevents the Council collecting the debt.

 

The law is Part VI of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 and the council has made a false representation of the law. Its not the behaviour expected of a town hall civil servant.

 

You have a right to make a complaint to the local government ombudsman and enclose a copy of the document containing the 'in law' comment.

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