Pub wouldn't serve me and kicked me out despite me providing valid ID

[Tom87]

I was in a pub the other day. I asked for a pint, and knowing I look younger than I am, I had my driving licence ready to show the barwoman, and she duely asked for it. After 'examining' it for about 15 seconds and continuously looking from me to the licence and the photo/DOB on it, she tutted and said "that's not you mate, you'd better get out before we call the police."

 

I have had this particular photo licence for the last three years and have never ever had a problem before with anyone identifying me from it. I calmly denied her allegation and asked to see the manager. She went and got the manager (her father) and he also looked at my licence and agreed with his employee that that was not me on the licence and I was trying to use fake ID and purchase alcohol underage.

 

I got cross at this point and explained frustratedly to the manager that there was nothing fake about my driving licence, and it is perfectly obvious from the photo that it is me. Then I remembered that by chance I had my passport in my pocket as I had recently returned from a weekend abroad. I produced my passport and the manager said although he agreed the passport was genuine and had the same DOB, name etc., because I had tried to "fob them off with a fake driving licence", they would eject me from the premises.

 

Before I could reply, the manager had beckoned two bouncers and they physically dragged me out of the busy pub, in full view of all the other customers. When I tried to resist, one of the bouncers kicked me on the back of the shin to make me bend on my knees then they continued to drag me. When I was on the street the same bouncer made a point of pushing me to the ground rather than just leaving me there.

 

I went straight to the police station and reported the incident. They said they could probably charge the bouncer with assault but weren't sure they could do much about the bar staff if they genuinely thought it was fake ID (even though it isn't).

 

To top it off, the staff even had the nerve to produce a photo of me taken from their CCTV and stick it up on the outside window of their pub saying I am barred from the pub. This is very humiliating and completely unfair. I would love to see the manager and barwoman fired, their premises closed down and them sent to rot in jail along with the bouncer though obviously things will never go that far in reality.

 

My question is, is there anything I can do about the manager and barwoman for (in my mind) perfectly consciously (i) refusing to serve me even though I had ID and there was no reason to throw me out i.e. I was not behaving badly etc., (ii) embarrassing me and tarnishing my reputation by putting up this poster; and (iii) this is possibly "race"-related as the pub is in Wales and I am English, I have since learned that the manager and his family are well-known around the area for having known anti-English feelings (although it has never gone this far) and I suspect he and his daughter saw on my driving licence that I'm from England and decided to make my life difficult because of that, I really cannot see any other reason.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Tom87

[My Real Name]

As a private business, pubs retain the right to serve whomever they see want. They are not obliged to serve anyone at all.

 

The bouncers, as agents of the owner, may use reasonable force to remove you from the premises, if you do not do so voluntarily. If you feel that the force used was not reasonable, this would be a police matter.

 

If they discriminated against you on the basis of race, they are acting in a manner contrary to the Race Relations Act. This is not a criminal offence (unless there were violence or assault involved). You might complain to the Commission for Racial Equality, and / or Trading Standards.

[Darwin]

Not wishing to be unhelpful but reading between the lines..

 

you were asked to leave , you continued arguing , you were forcibly ejected.

[Bookworm]

OTOH, if they're part of a franchise, you could complain to HO about it. Whilst it is true that any pub can refuse to serve you, in the same manner any shop can refuse your custom, but that doesn't mean that you don't can't kick up a fuss if you are being treated unfairly.

 

You could also write to them and advise that unless they remove the photo from their window, you will report them to the ICO, as I'd take a bet that using the CCTV the way they have to tell the world you're banned is a breach of the DPA. I mean, what is it going to achieve? People are not going to recognise you and run into the pub saying: "quick, I've seen him in the street, lock up before he comes this way!" are they? If you're barred, you're barred and that's one thing for the staff to be able to identify you if you go in, it's another altogether to plaster your picture in the window as if you were a wanted criminal, and I certainly would feel very angry about that too.

[Darwin]

it's another altogether to plaster your picture in the window as if you were a wanted criminal, and I certainly would feel very angry about that too.

 

There is some sort of scheme in my local area and there is a big list of pictures of known trouble makers.

 

 

 

http://www.caterersearch.com/Articles/2008/11/10/324561/no-legal-appeal-for-pubwatch-banned-drinkers-rules.html

Edited May 12, 2009 by Darwin

[Bookworm]

I don't know the details of Pubwatch, but whilst I can accept the "banned from one, barred from all" (only up to a point, it seems a very cavalier way of treating people, there's a world of difference between the guy who's had one incident when he had too much and habitual troublemakers), I still don't see how that gives them the right to plaster the photos on the windows. It smacks of "name and shame" rather than legitimate processing of data. It's one thing for the staff to have a book of photos at the bar to ID banned people, but I can not see any justification for the public "wanted" poster, and I certainly would query this with the ICO if it has become common practice in pubs (I live in Croydon, for goodness sake, and I have never seen it anywhere! Yet, I know there is a Pubwatch in place.)

[My Real Name]

I didn't read the bit about the photo in the window of the pub.

 

I would definitely, as Bookworm has suggested, complain to the ICO.

[Kraken1]

there is an argument that they accused you of a criminal offence publicly, assaulted you in the process (it might have been reasonable force, but it may not have been...two big chaps, one of you, the strike, the push to the ground after you were out of the premises) and therefore you have claims for assault and defamation, especially with the poster.

 

Personally, I'd have a pop just to make life difficult for them. This is not about them refusing to serve you, it is about the way they did it.

 

Bouncers need SIA accreditation. Ask for this and complain there too.

 

Throw in the DDA and ICO angles as well. Might make it more jiucy. Ask for copies of the cctv footage as well. Might help show that you were assaulted.

 

All this is more likely to get you somewhere if it is a larger chain.

[Tom87]

Not wishing to be unhelpful but reading between the lines..

 

you were asked to leave , you continued arguing , you were forcibly ejected.

 

I appreciate your viewpoint but can't you understand the reason why I "continued arguing"? So if you were asked to leave for a completely invented claim of fake ID for a reason, you would just do so and not challenge it?

 

I am aware that any pub/restaurant/shop is allowed to refuse to serve and/or ask a customer to leave the premises. BUT doesn't there have to be a decent reason? Surely a supermarket etc. can't just refuse to serve you because "they don't feel like it"? Or can they?

 

The staff at this pub (which is an independent pub, not a chain unfortunately) knew full well that there was absolutely nothing wrong with my ID, they just consciously fabricated a reason for kicking me out. I have since discussed my experience with several prominent local figures who are familiar with, and have informed me of, the landlord and his family's beliefs, and I am 99% sure my crime was being an Englishman in Wales. I love Wales and it is such a shame a small minority of prehistoric thugs like these put such a stain on this wonderful country and its rightfully proud people.

 

The force the bouncer used was not reasonable, and I have just learnt he has been charged with assault. I am slim, 5 ft 8, in my early 20s. They were both well-built men, in their 30s or 40s, well over 6 ft, and they were pulling me out without difficulty, my resisting made no difference.

 

Thank you for the advice about the picture, I shall follow it up. For as long as I see my picture in the window I will spread the word verbally that this is a pub run by racist bigots who employ violent thugs to deal with any dissent. I have already got an article in the free local paper so look forward to that going on thousands of doormats later this week.

 

If they had a valid reason for ejecting me, fair enough. But to deliberately fabricate a makebelieve reason (and in doing so accusing the DVLA of issuing me with a fake licence) is a step too far and I will push for the severest punishment for all involved.

[buzby]

Yes - I'd leave and not challenge it. You learn this with age. If they're so thick not to see the difference, more fool them - spend your money elsewhere. On thier side, you could easilt have been a Trading Standards plant (and they also have fake ID to add to the mix) so as you had to opportunitiyes to have it reviewed (staff and manager) if you couldn't get either to agree - I'd take solace in the fact you look younger than you are. There's a lot of CAGgers on here who would swap places with you at a drop of a hat!

[Kraken1]

I'd take solace in the fact you look younger than you are. There's a lot of CAGgers on here who would swap places with you at a drop of a hat!

 

Too true. No-one IDs me anymore

[Sarah_Pussycat]

I was ID'd a week after my 30th birthday - I was so chuffed that on reflex I hugged the bouncer, who was so surprised by my reaction that he let me in anyway! (And thankfully didn't press assault charges)

 

I would have been quite happy to go somewhere else though as I don't actually OWN any photo ID, and after several years working in the pub trade myself I know what a big issue it is.

 

This case however is VERY unfair treatment - and although anyone can see the injustice here, unfortunately pub landlords and staff have the right to refuse to serve anyone they like without actually having to give a reason (although common courtesy should say that you refuse politely, with good reason, and WITHOUT undue force!)

[Tom87]

Well I can't wait for the day I no longer get ID'd. I have looked young long enough, it is annoying and patronising.

[Tom87]

Yes - I'd leave and not challenge it. You learn this with age.

 

Well if that's the case, and if I may be frank for a minute, I'm not sure why you're a member of the CAG. The CAG actively encourages people to exercise their rights and not to "put up and shut up" after being mistreated. I apologise for my bluntness but I can't understand how you can have this opinion yet be a regular member of this group whose aim is to give more voice to consumers and to stand up against companies which tread all over us.

[Sol]

Well if that's the case, and if I may be frank for a minute, I'm not sure why you're a member of the CAG. The CAG actively encourages people to exercise their rights and not to "put up and shut up" after being mistreated. I apologise for my bluntness but I can't understand how you can have this opinion yet be a regular member of this group whose aim is to give more voice to consumers and to stand up against companies which tread all over us.

 

There's a difference between trying to get unlawful charges off your account, or dealing with DCAs that harrass you for example, to being on someone's private property and refusing to leave - the law is on their side.

[citizenkain]

Theres a pub near me where the landlord used to act like this,last time I walked past it,it was empty,theres plenty of pubs around.If I walked into a pub and nobody was serving fast enough,I go somewhere else,do the same tom.

[Tom87]

Don't worry, I'm not going to go in that one again! Especially not with a 'wanted' picture of me on their window!

[Kraken1]

Sometimes the advice we need to give is that your attitude, and your choice about which battles to fight will change over the years.

[Bookworm]

Welllllll, yes and no.

 

Personally, I fight unfairness wherever it meets me, and it's got nothing to do with age. If I had been forcibly ejected from a place when I was doing nothing wrong in the first place and then found myself publicly vilified, I would be creating merry hell, and I'm 46. If anything, I have got more assertive as I got older.

[Tom87]

My sincere thanks to all those who understand!

 

I for one am in the CAG because I also will stick up for myself whenever I am treated wrongly by an individual, business or company. I reckon any doubters would quickly change their "put up and shut up" opinion if they were treated in this way and then publicly slandered.

[gyzmo]

For my tuppence,

 

I would have just walked out as soon as they doubted me if that was their attitude. No pub or pint is worth hassle like that. There is a difference between enforcing you rights (or rather, being treated unfairly) and making informed decisions about where to take your custom. I'm not backing the pub, but it is their right to refuse to serve people so long as it is not unlawful (e.g,because of a disability or race). It's called crap customer service.

 

The problem is that underage sales are a big fave of enforcement at the moment, and licencees more and more are taking no chances - just look at various initiative - "Think 21", "Think 25" even. Fake IDs are also a huge problem, and enforcement authorities are telling traders only to accept certain types of ID to combat this. A licensed premise will have various procedures in place, like till prompts, refusal book, photographs of people believed to be underage and in some places thumbprint scanners. Buzby mentioned TS carrying fake ID's. These are used for educating traders than they are for trying to catch a trader out - the enforcement concordat does not allow for entrapment, though that is debatable and off topic here.

 

By the time it got round to you producing your passport, the manager and staff probably already had his back up (not by you) and would probably have just been determined to have you out anyway, regardless of what ID you had.

 

I would not be surprised if the pub had been caught making underage sales and have started taking no chances. Some traders do behave rather unreasonably in this area, imho.

 

If you feel so strongly about this, I would contact the manager and try to reason with him, even to get your photo out of the window. You could also contact the council's licensing department, though I am not sure they would do anything. Get an official age ID card as well. I know you have your passport, driving licence etc, but an additional one can't hurt.

 

Just off point, a couple of years ago I was buying some wine in Tesco, and the assistant looked at her manager and asked if it could be sold. Now, despite my knowing why this happened (she was under 18 and had to get the sale approved), I just couldn't resist. "Oh, do you need some ID? Don't I look old enough?" I asked with a bit of a grin.

"Oh it's not that" she said, explaining about her being under 18 and having to ask, then continued without any hint of jest or malice "Anyone can see you're over 40".

I'm 34

[MARTIN3030]

If you want to lodge a formal complaint then the people to go to is the Licensing section at your local council-these are responsible not only for premises licensing but also door security.

If you want to put the cat amongst the pigeons,you could also send a subject access request either to the bar owners,or else the company who manages their security system and demand to see the CCTV images of the incident.

I dont need to tell you though-unfortunately taking on the big boys of town centre bars and clubs can need a lot of bottle if you forgive the pun-and since these lot usually stick together when push comes to the shove,you cant expect them to be welcoming you with open arms.

That said,if people dont follow up these kinds of incidents with complaints to licensing officers,then they will continue to get away with it.

Yes agreed there are problems with under age drinking-but there are ways to deal with incidents like this too-a properly trained SAI registered doorman will know just how that should be done.

[Bookworm]

Just off point, a couple of years ago I was buying some wine in Tesco, and the assistant looked at her manager and asked if it could be sold. Now, despite my knowing why this happened (she was under 18 and had to get the sale approved), I just couldn't resist. "Oh, do you need some ID? Don't I look old enough?" I asked with a bit of a grin.

"Oh it's not that" she said, explaining about her being under 18 and having to ask, then continued without any hint of jest or malice "Anyone can see you're over 40".

I'm 34

That will teach you to wind up young girls, you dirty old man. :-D

[electron99]

Surely, any pub that has to employ bouncers is not a place repectable people should want to visit.

[Lula]

I am now of the age (younger than Bookie, I hasten to add ) that I will not frequent an establishment that needs to employ bouncers, however, if this ever happens to my daughter (17 at the mo) I will give it to them with both barrells, there is one thing being careful and quite another acting lie thugs. And dont forget, mistreating you because you are English is racial discrimination although I think that you would have a tough time prooving it.

 

Go down the Council and SIA route, plus the SAR, give them some awful admin the deal with. I would also be contacting the ICO to see if putting up posters of people that have not been convicted of any crime is lawful.

 

Oh, and I am giggling at the thought of someone trying to eject Bookie from somewhere