CCA request - reply from Halifax

[susiemac77]

I refer to your letter of 3rd June, demanding payment in relation to the above account.This account has been in dispute since 7th April 2009 due to HBOS being unable to provide me with a true signed copy of the original agreement relating to the accountAs I'm sure you are aware while the account is in dispute, HBOS are not allowed to:* demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment.* add further interest or any charges to the account.* pass the account to a third party.* register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.* issue a default notice related to the account.In addition, on the 3rd June I received a letter from HBOS customer services stating that they cannot provide the agreement and that while they try to locate the agreement that they will not seek to enforce the agreementPlease pass this account back to HBOS who I will deal with, if and when the agreement is produced.Should you continue to chase me on account that you shouldn’t be dealing with in the first place, I will make a complaint to the Financial OmbudsmanFurthermore, should it be your intention to arrange a “doorstep call”, please be advised that under OFT rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have no wish to make such an appointment with you.

SENT TO COLLECTIONS AGENCY

[susiemac77]

Further to my letter of 2nd June, I enclose a copy of the letter I have sent today to the collections agency that you passed my account too, despite knowing that the account is in dispute and you are therefore prevented from taking ANY collections action until the dispute is resolved.I have copied this letter to your customer services department who wrote to me on the 3rd June stating that they are unable to produce the requested agreement and that while they locate it they will not be seeking to enforce the agreement I have requested that Albion send the account back to you, since you had no right to pass it to them in the first placeIn addition to copying this letter to your customer services department I have also included a formal complaint with regard to the repeated threatening letters I have been sent, the continued adding of interest and charges to a disputed account, the issue of a default notice and passing the account to a debt collection agency.Other than your confirmation that these breaches on your part have been rectified, I do not expect ANY further correspondence from your collections department until such time as you customer services department confirm that they have located the requested true, signed copy of the original agreement

 

SENT TO HBOS RETAIL COLLECTIONS

[susiemac77]

FORMAL COMPLAINTI am writing in response to your letter of 3rd June stating that you are unable to provide the requested agreement and that will you try to locate it you will not seek to enforce the agreementI enclose with this letter, copies as follows:a) Letter, dated the same day as your response, from a collections agency threatening legal action and home visitb) My response to the collections agencyc) My letter to your collections department with reference to the letter from the collection agencyI have send numerous letters to your collections department stating that until you provide the true signed copy of the agreement that the account is in dispute.As noted in my letters to your collection department and yourself since the account is in dispute you are not allowed to:* demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment.* add further interest or any charges to the account.* pass the account to a third party.* register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.* issue a default notice related to the account.Despite this, I have had (since after the 7th April when the account entered default status) a) Letters demanding paymentb) a notice that the account had been terminatedc) a default noticed) threats of legal action and passing of the account to a debt collection agencye) Late payment and overlimit charges applied to the accountf) Interest applied to the accountg) The enclosed letter from the debt collection agencyI trust that this is simply a breakdown in communications between the different departments and expect that you will confirm that ALL collection activity will cease until you have provided the agreement and that all interest and charges will be frozen and that those applied since 7th April have been reversed

 

SENT TO HBOS CUSTOMER SERVICES

[IdaInFife]

do you still have the DN and and ther termination notice?

 

 

ida x

[susiemac77]

Possibly, Im not sure. Only occurred to me to start keeping everything together a week or so ago. Will it make a difference if I dont have them?

[IdaInFife]

could be better,

 

if you can find the DN you need to check to see when the letter was dated and what date they gave to remedy the arrears

 

ida x

[susiemac77]

On an initial look, I cant find the Default Notice. Should that have any effect on them passing it to a debt collector?

 

and when the customer services dept have openly admit they havent found any agreement yet and wont enforce until they do, should the collections department not be backing off?

[sythe]

Hi susiemac77.............it takes a court order before DCA can visit you. That's a long drawn out process for the DCA. I've had loads of those letters and nothing ever comes of them..........it is just another DCA empty threat. Keep cool and don't pay a penny.........make a CCA request to the DCA and write to make a formal complaint about unfair business practices..........I could try to dig out the Consumer Credit Act info on this.............I have it on file somewhere.

 

kind regards

karenruthj8

[FlyboyAgain]

On an initial look, I cant find the Default Notice. Should that have any effect on them passing it to a debt collector?

 

and when the customer services dept have openly admit they havent found any agreement yet and wont enforce until they do, should the collections department not be backing off?

 

Just get a copy of it. I cant understand why they sent you a default letter an passed the account for collection after you'd CCAd them.

 

And yes, they should be, but that's not how it works! The DCA will behave like a rabid dog over this. Also, you will find out - as I have done today - that your letters will go to different HBOS's internal departments depending on whether it's a complaint, notification or something else, irrespective of you quoting your card/ref number!! ( I was told this, this afternoon, when I deigned to answer the phone), and that HBOS and their lapdog DCA are hopeless at keeping in contact with each other. They're just going in with all guns blazing and are definitely not talking to one another!! No wonder we get annoyed with these clowns!

 

Stick to your guns and don't speak to your DCA: conduct everything in writing, even though I have just shown that whatever information you may impart may not reach the right department or, in the case of my DCA, disappear into the ether whereby it's existence is completely denied!

Edited June 10, 2009 by FlyboyAgain
spelling

[FlyboyAgain]

Also, write to your DCA revoking any home vistis under Scots Civil LAw.

[IdaInFife]

Hi Susue,

 

what they should or shoudl not do is normally the opposite.

 

 

I think you should start making complaints to trading standards and OFT.

 

ida x

[sythe]

Just get a copy of it. I cant understand why they sent you a default letter an passed the account for collection after you'd CCAd them.

 

They did this because, they want to keep you psychologically on the defensive...........they know they in a weak position and hope that you will not realise that............stick to your guns.

 

karenruthj8;-)

[sythe]

hi...........to complaint to the FOS you must first complain in writing to the DCA/creditor.............they have 8 weeks to reply to your complaint, after that you can refer to FOS. Once your complaint is registered with FOS no-one can legitamately contact you about the matter until FOS have dealt with it to your satisfaction.

 

[FlyboyAgain]

hi...........to complaint to the FOS you must first complain in writing to the DCA/creditor.............they have 8 weeks to reply to your complaint, after that you can refer to FOS. Once your complaint is registered with FOS no-one can legitamately contact you about the matter until FOS have dealt with it to your satisfaction.

 

 

And the FOS are swamped with complaints, right now! They are known to be a bit toothless at times but at least your DCA will get a fright. MAke sure they see, or are notified of, your submission to the FOS.

[susiemac77]

Thanks everyone

 

I have sent a formal complaint to the customer services at hbos and copied them into my reply to the dca and the collections dept - basically anthing I send from now on I will send separately to collections and customer services to make sure they are both up to date

 

I also told the DCA that I would not be dealing with them as the account was in dispute, to pass it back to HBOS and that if they continued to chase me I would complain to FOS. I also included that I did not give them permission to visit me at home (I copied this letter to collections and customer services as well all recorded delivery, so if they deny knowledge now at least I 'll know they're messing about.

 

No replies from any of them yet, so just need to wait to see what they say

[susiemac77]

Latest reply from Customer services (arrived on same day as ANOTHER letter from DCA demanding immediate payment)

 

Thank you for your letter of 8th June

While we try to locate the full original agreement we will not be seeking to enforce the agreement. However, even if an agreement in unenforceable, the contract still has legal effect and is not void, the lender is merely prevented from seeking an enforcement order from the court.

I have found no previous record of you disputing this account and you have had the benefit of this agreement, I do not see on what basis you are disputing liability. If you cease making payments then this may amount to breach of contract and we will continue with our normal collections and credit reference activities.

Despite claiming to give the bank notice that the account is in dispute, you have given no valid reason to dispute the debt. pleae note, you have no contractual or statutory right to withhold payment to your acount. As your account is in arrears we will ask you to rectify this default and we reserve our right to notify credit reference agencies accordingly. For the avoidance of doubt the Consumer Credit Act does not prohibit collection activity when an account is in dispute

 

Im really confused! Every thread on here says collection activity is prohibited during dispute and that lack of agreement is a clear dispute

 

Also I am not attempting to shirk the debt, Im just trying to clarify if they can enforce the agreement so that I have some leverage in trying to negotiate with them as they have been REALLY unhelpful. When I started falling behind they increased my interest rate and added charges and when I complained they basically told me if I didnt like it to close the account when clearly if I could afford to pay the whole debt I wouldnt have fallen behind on the payments. My interest rate is now double what it originally was. they have also refused to freeze or reduce interest and charges so if I make a reduced payment the whole lot will go towards interst and the balance will never reduce. The final straw was when I did phone and ask to make a lower payment for a couple of months until I could try to catch up which they said they would accept then after I made the 1st payment they went into my account and helped themselves to 2 months arrears leaving me with £12 to live on for 2 weeks (I've since changed my account to prevent that happening again)

 

From my last 6 years statements, the interest and charges total almost 80% of my current balance - is it worth offering to pay the 20% left and if I did would the 20% need to be paid as a lump sum

[sythe]

"I do not see on what basis you are disputing liability".........."you have given no valid reason to dispute the debt" ........."the Consumer Credit Act does not prohibit collection activity when an account is in dispute"

 

 

Hi susiemac.............while I am no expert in all this. I would say first that they are clunching at straws, hoping you will not stick to your guns. They know that in the absence of a copy of the original, signed agreement they cannot enforce this debt in court. In response to their point "I do not see on what basis you are disputing liability" ........this is a loaded question, my advice is do not answer it. In response to "you have given no valid reason to dispute the debt".........you have given a very good reason for disputing the debt, you want them to prove that they can enforce it legally. In response to "the Consumer Credit Act does not prohibit collection activity when an account is in dispute"..........oh yes it most certainly does.......and I'll take some time today and find the section where the act states this very plainly. If it were me I'd simply ignore the contents of this letter and respond by pointing out that they have failed to comply with your CCA request........I could post a letter I sent recently to that effect if you want.........I'll also try to find the template on this site that I used.

 

keep cool...... krj8

[susiemac77]

Hi susiemac.............while I am no expert in all this. I would say first that they are clunching at straws, hoping you will not stick to your guns. They know that in the absence of a copy of the original, signed agreement they cannot enforce this debt in court. In response to their point "I do not see on what basis you are disputing liability" ........this is a loaded question, my advice is do not answer it. In response to "you have given no valid reason to dispute the debt".........you have given a very good reason for disputing the debt, you want them to prove that they can enforce it legally. In response to "the Consumer Credit Act does not prohibit collection activity when an account is in dispute"..........oh yes it most certainly does.......and I'll take some time today and find the section where the act states this very plainly. If it were me I'd simply ignore the contents of this letter and respond by pointing out that they have failed to comply with your CCA request........I could post a letter I sent recently to that effect if you want.........I'll also try to find the template on this site that I used.

 

keep cool...... krj8

 

 

 

That would be great. Thanks!

[sythe]

ah ha.............found the CCA info as follows:

 

With reference to the OFT debt collection guidance as follows :

1.1 The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) has a duty under the Consumer Credit Act 1974to ensure that licences are only given to and retained by those who are fit to hold them.

 

 

The Act provides that the OFT take into account any circumstances which appear to be relevant and in particular any evidence that an applicant, licensee, or their employees, agents or business associates, past or present, have:

• failed to comply with the requirements of credit or other consumer legislation

• engaged in business practices appearing to us to be deceitful, oppressive or otherwise unfair or improper (whether unlawful or not).

 

 

2 UNFAIR BUSINESS PRACTICES

Communication

2.1 It is unfair to communicate, in whatever form, with consumers in an unclear, inaccurate or misleading manner.

2.2 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

b. leaving out or presenting information in such a way that it

creates a false or misleading impression or exploits debtors'

lack of knowledge

 

False representation of authority and/or legal position

2.3 Those contacting debtors must not be deceitful by misrepresenting their authority and/or the correct legal position.

2.4 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

b. falsely implying or stating that action can or will be taken when it legally cannot

Deceptive and/or unfair methods

Psychological harassment

2.5 Putting pressure on debtors or third parties is considered to be oppressive.

c. using more than one debt collection business at the same time

resulting in repetitive and/or frequent contact by different parties

d. not ensuring that an adequate history of the debt is passed on as

appropriate resulting in repetitive and/or frequent contact by different parties

e. not informing the debtor when their case has been passed on to a different debt collector

h. ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

 

2.7 Dealings with debtors are not to be deceitful and/or unfair.

2.8 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

k. not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt.

 

I had all that in an email I sent earlier this month, luckily!............so you could try sending some relevant form of it to them stating that you are now making a formal complaint. They then have 8 weeks to respond. If you remain unsatisfied with their response you can contact the Financial Ombudsman Service and complain to them. Whist all that is going on remember, THE ACCOUNT IS IN DISPUTE.........and I can reassure you of this as I have personal experience of it. You may be able to get back any money they have taken since you first CCA'd them.

 

Here is the other letter I mentioned :

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Ref: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter of xx-June-2009, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my request that you supply me with a true copy of the signed, executed credit agreement for the above account under section 77(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, along with a full statement of this account detailing all debits and credits to the account. Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

....hope this helps.......let me know;) krj8

Edited June 30, 2009 by karenruthj8
spelling

[sythe]

Hi again susiemac.........just a quick word to say, I've just opened a letter from a DCA who have backed down completely due to my having sent letters as described to you earlier. The threat to the DCA's is very real. they could lose their licence, if it is shown that they knowingly disregard the OFT's guidance..........they are in their letter obviously trying to claim that they wre not orperly instructed by their client......but i'm not letting them off that easy. I've got my teeth in thier butt now and I'm not about to let go.............good luck..........hear from you soon.

 

kindest regards

krj8

[IdaInFife]

this is sometimes how it goes, you say it is on dispute and the creditor/dca disagrees. if you have already advised why it's in dispute and they still demand payment you can still make a complaint to the oft and trading standards and just file any demands

 

ida x

[susiemac77]

Hi again susiemac.........just a quick word to say, I've just opened a letter from a DCA who have backed down completely due to my having sent letters as described to you earlier. The threat to the DCA's is very real. they could lose their licence, if it is shown that they knowingly disregard the OFT's guidance..........they are in their letter obviously trying to claim that they wre not orperly instructed by their client......but i'm not letting them off that easy. I've got my teeth in thier butt now and I'm not about to let go.............good luck..........hear from you soon.

 

kindest regards

krj8

 

Draft letter to Halifax - would appreciate an opinion before I post it

 

I refer to your letter of 12th June and am disappointed that you appear to have disregarded the complaints in my previous letter.For the avoidance of doubt, querying whether or not you have the legal right to enforce the agreement (which without the original that you have yet to locate, you do not) is a clear disputeI am also surprised at you assertation that the Consumer Credit Act 1974 does not prohibit collection activity when an account is in disputeTo re-summarise my position, the account is clearly in dispute until such time as you can provide the requested agreement and should you or any debt collection agency continue to unlawfully harrass me for payment I will complain to the Financial Ombudsman and the Office of Fair Trading under the following guidance:With reference to the OFT debt collection guidance as follows :

 

1.1 The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) has a duty under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 to ensure that licences are only given to and retained by those who are fit to hold them. The Act provides that the OFT take into account any circumstances which appear to be relevant and in particular any evidence that an applicant, licensee, or their employees, agents or business associates, past or present, have:• failed to comply with the requirements of credit or other consumer legislation• engaged in business practices appearing to us to be deceitful, oppressive or otherwise unfair or improper (whether unlawful or not).2 UNFAIR BUSINESS PRACTICESCommunication2.1 It is unfair to communicate, in whatever form, with consumers in an unclear, inaccurate or misleading manner.2.2 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:b. leaving out or presenting information in such a way that it creates a false or misleading impression or exploits debtors' lack of knowledgeFalse representation of authority and/or legal position2.3 Those contacting debtors must not be deceitful by misrepresenting their authority and/or the correct legal position.2.4 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:b. falsely implying or stating that action can or will be taken when it legally cannotDeceptive and/or unfair methodsPsychological harassment2.5 Putting pressure on debtors or third parties is considered to be oppressive.c. using more than one debt collection business at the same timeresulting in repetitive and/or frequent contact by different partiesd. not ensuring that an adequate history of the debt is passed on asappropriate resulting in repetitive and/or frequent contact by different partiese. not informing the debtor when their case has been passed on to a different debt collectorh. ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment2.7 Dealings with debtors are not to be deceitful and/or unfair.2.8 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:k. not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt.This letter, like my last is a formal complaint and I look forward to your reply within 14 days outlining how you intend to rectify this position, including but not restricted to1) cessation of collection activity2) cessation of interest and charges3) reversal of interest and charges levied since 7th AprilYours Faithfully

[susiemac77]

If anyone could give me an opinion on whether or not the letter is ok to send it would be much appreciated

[sythe]

If anyone could give me an opinion on whether or not the letter is ok to send it would be much appreciated

 

 

Hi susiemac..........I'll copy and paste your letter and let you know what I think...........I'm not an expert but I've had quite a bit of success in dealing with this sort of thing...........krj8;)

Edited July 2, 2009 by karenruthj8
spelling

[sythe]

Hi susiemac.........your letter seems fine to me...........your are on solid ground here.

 

regards krj8:)