ACS:Law copyright file sharing claims, Gallant Macmillan - and probably some others along the way...

[tommyboy22]

who do you think will foot the bill to pay for experts to visited your home to analyze your pc for evidence of copyright infringement to claim 600 quid or so , i believe that this will not even reach court for it to have to chance to be laughed out... just scare tactics but i am afraid that people wil pay up because they believe that every page they have visited or every mp3 they have downloaded will be open to view....for an individual to be linked solely with an isp address over a period of time is impossible to prove without resonable doubt, you may have not secured your home wireless network correctly , i would love to see the size of the courtroom needed to bring everyone to justice, maybe they will book an aircraft hanger.....

[andydd]

Why should anyone not say it is a [problem]?

Thats exactly what it is

ACS have no legal powers whatsoever to demand monies off an individual, only the county courts do.

It will cost them money to take anyone there & wouldnt be worth their while just to get back £1 per month if anything at all.

What is there to take seriously about a bunch of jumped up clowns threatening people & trying to obtain money by deception effectivley?

Its this lot who should be taken to court & money screwed out of, not the public.

Just because they reside in a posh London office no doubt & proberbly wear expensive suits means nothing.

 

I say it shouldnt be called a [problem] for the reasons I outlined....It risks people ignoring the letters, IF they are then issued with court proceedings and they ignore them too then they WILL LOSE (by default) and they will get a bill of many thousands.

 

I certainly think it is outragous and is pushing the limits of what is legal to the limit..BUT if you were to end it court then simply proclaiming 'Its a [problem]' will not help you. I think your anger is clouding your judgement, try to think sensibly about this.

[mr.ton]

What ACS have done here effectivley is produce a 4/5 page document - made it sound all official/full of authority/scary & then expect people will just pay up immediately for fear of the consequences etc..

Sadly there are many who are not aware of their rights in this country &

will pay up.

[mr.ton]

I say it shouldnt be called a [problem] for the reasons I outlined....It risks people ignoring the letters, IF they are then issued with court proceedings and they ignore them too then they WILL LOSE (by default) and they will get a bill of many thousands.

I certainly think it is outragous and is pushing the limits of what is legal to the limit..BUT if you were to end it court then simply proclaiming 'Its a [problem]' will not help you. I think your anger is clouding your judgement, try to think sensibly about this.

 

With respect, you seem to be ignoring the basic principle of how the county court system works.

I personally dont think they will take anyone anywhere near a court....but anyway,if what you describe above does actually happen - have you not not heard of legal/human rights in this country?

Even if a bill for a squillion pound was sent out...if would be repayable at an amount the individual could afford (if anything at all) & even then, the person would have gone through so many legal hoops to get the thing overturned/reversed/saught their own advice from the likes of CAB etc...

If ACS want to play the legal system, then they shouldnt be too suprised when the public know how to play it back.

Please try not to let your trolling get in the way of reality here

[andydd]

Does anyone else sniff a troll around here somewhere?

 

If you are suggesting its me then I'm afraid you are very wrong but Ive just been looking at sites discussing this topic and have been worried at the duff advice handed out, mostly along the lines of 'Its a [problem], ignore it'. This is very foolish as it has lead to a few cases where Davenport Lyons won by default when the accused didnt turn up to the court cases, I would hate that to happen to anyone here, this hasnt been helped by Virgin Media, who in many cases have told people who phone up conflicting informatiion.

 

If anyone has received one of these letters the following links may help.

 

Slyck.com • View topic - DL/ACS:law - I've received a letter, what should I do?

 

Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons? - Page 35 - Cable Forum

 

Andy

[Superjonboy]

There's something way too fishy about it all.

Different emails/phone numbers/the ever changing website.

 

I really want to know why this T Tsang is involved.

[mr.ton]

You could have fooled me & most others on here

From reading what you post, anyone would think the sun shines out of their backside & they have all these authoritarian powers that must be adhered to

Nothing could be any furthur from the truth or reality with this ACS bunch

[mr.ton]

Ive just been looking at sites discussing this topic and have been worried at the duff advice handed out

 

Speak for for yourself matie.

CAG hands out excellent advice to people - many who have been helped on here will tell you that.

I have said many times that i challenge ACS to bring the 1st person before the county court (depending on were they live) & lets see what happens then?

It is mine & others responsibility to inform them of how the county court system actually works & how it is effectivley designed in their favour and not in favour of companies like ACS.

I dont know how many they have sent these letters out to - thousands perhaps??? even so, are they gonna work their way through every individual & get them before the court?

Hope theyve got deep pockets if they do

[penumbra]

Why should anyone not say it is a [problem]?

Thats exactly what it is

ACS have no legal powers whatsoever to demand monies off an individual, only the county courts do.

It will cost them money to take anyone there & wouldnt be worth their while just to get back £1 per month if anything at all.

What is there to take seriously about a bunch of jumped up clowns threatening people & trying to obtain money by deception effectivley?

Its this lot who should be taken to court & money screwed out of, not the public.

Just because they reside in a posh London office no doubt & proberbly wear expensive suits means nothing.

 

While I sympathise with you points, I'm sorry, but this is bordering on dangerous.

 

Although you're right that they have no powers to enforce any kind of money collection at this point, this is not a debt enforcement matter. It is a "warning shot" for alleged copyright infringement.

 

Although you don't have to pay a penny at this stage there is a very real risk of being taken to court for this. They state in their letters that if you don't pay, they'll take you to court. If you reply and deny it becomes a very small risk (nobody who has replied and denied have been taken to court in the last three years).

 

I don't know what people are saying about the phone numbers not working. They have been for other people. The ones on the letters are the same as for the entry in the law society database.

 

There are very real questions to be asked about this whole palaver, but immediately screaming [problem]!!! does not help one iota.

 

As rubbish as the copyright and data protection laws are in this country, the copyright holders are allowed to protect their rights. Sure, this isn't the way to go about it (I find it utterly abhorrent, myself) but such histrionics are not helpful at all.

[andydd]

With respect, you seem to be ignoring the basic principle of how the county court system works.

I personally dont think they will take anyone anywhere near a court....but anyway,if what you describe above does actually happen - have you not not heard of legal/human rights in this country?

Even if a bill for a squillion pound was sent out...if would be repayable at an amount the individual could afford (if anything at all) & even then, the person would have gone through so many legal hoops to get the thing overturned/reversed/saught their own advice from the likes of CAB etc...

If ACS want to play the legal system, then they shouldnt be too suprised when the public know how to play it back.

Please try not to let your trolling get in the way of reality here

 

Unfortunatly DL did take about 5 people to court, the most high profile case is listed here..

 

UK File-Sharer Has To Pay £16,000: Historic Background : Digital-Lifestyles

 

I'm not for one minute saying anyone should pay up BUT people should be aware that they shoulldnt just ignore it, the best advice for people who have received a letter is to go here

 

 

and follow Micheal Coyle from Lawdit's advice.

 

Also you are incorrect about the county court system, as the letters sent out are 'offering' an out of court agreement it has nothing to do with ability to pay, if you read the letters sent out it does waffle on a bit but it is basically asking you to agree to a contract, ie..you send us 600 quid and we wont take you to court.

 

Of course ACS havnt got a leg to stand on and its highly unlikely that their IP evidence would stand upo in court, BUT bare in mind they have won some cases purely by default which is why Im trying to inform people, I certainkly am not a troll and am offending you would post such a thing, a quick click on my name will show I have been a member a while and have contributed to many discussions on here.

 

Andy

Edited February 11, 2010 by IdaInFife
removed external link

[car2403]

Guys,

 

I (and the rest of the site team) have been watching this progress with interest.

 

It does seem very unusual, though you all seem to be on top of what is needed to deal with this effectively.

 

A few pointers from me;

 

for an individual to be linked solely with an isp address over a period of time is impossible to prove without resonable doubt, you may have not secured your home wireless network correctly , i would love to see the size of the courtroom needed to bring everyone to justice, maybe they will book an aircraft hanger.....

 

Agreed, remember though that civil cases have a lower standard of proof than that required in a criminal case. Criminal cases require proof beyond reasonable doubt, but in civil cases that is on the balance of probabilities.

 

In other words, is it more probable that you did download this stuff and breach copyright that it is improbable that you didn't.

 

There's an important distinction to be made here - if (and this is a really, REALLY, big "if") they do have expert evidence showing that you did do this, you'd have to throw so many questions on that evidence to show that it is improbable (note, not impossible) that you did what has been stated.

 

I say it shouldnt be called a [problem] for the reasons I outlined....It risks people ignoring the letters, IF they are then issued with court proceedings and they ignore them too then they WILL LOSE (by default) and they will get a bill of many thousands.

 

I certainly think it is outragous and is pushing the limits of what is legal to the limit..BUT if you were to end it court then simply proclaiming 'Its a [problem]' will not help you. I think your anger is clouding your judgement, try to think sensibly about this.

 

I have to say, I agree somewhat with andydd, here.

 

This could be termed a "[problem]", or it could not.

 

The simple fact is, they could bring civil proceedings against you and you should be prepared to defend it - if you fail to reply to a letter before action and a court claim is issued which is ignored, you will find yourself with a CCJ against you. Yes, you could get it set aside, (if you can show that CPR Part 13 applies) but defending a claim would be far easier than setting a CCJ aside.

 

For me, this is a [problem], but one that you should all be prepared to battle against.

 

I've noticed a few members asking about templates for responses - as this is something new to CAG, we don't have those for these instances to my knowledge, at this time.

[mr.ton]

Not boardering on dangerous whatsoever - the only danger its posing its to the profits of ACS i suspect

They have no powers to enforce money collection at any point WHATSOEVER..only the court has this power at all times.

Like ive said over & over again - i encourage them to start bringing each person before the court.

But i will also carry on pointing out what legal rights every person has & what legal powers ACS does not have effectivley

[tommyboy22]

agreed .. can you then tell me we are not being sued by much bigger fish ie sony, warner paramount and the like but a small east european based pc software designer? because the huge corporations know as the law stands not even with their financial clout and very expensive lawyers that it is impossible to convict without 100% difinitve proof , there is too much resonalbe doubt , your pc needs to have its hard drive analyzed and evidence found there in and even then prove it was you using it at that time..too much room for error ... also in my case my isp was virginmedia and not cable internet limited as listed in my letter...

[mr.ton]

Also you are incorrect about the county court system, as the letters sent out are 'offering' an out of court agreement it has nothing to do with ability to pay, if you read the letters sent out it does waffle on a bit but it is basically asking you to agree to a contract, ie..you send us 600 quid and we wont take you to court.

Of course ACS havnt got a leg to stand on and its highly unlikely that their IP evidence would stand upo in court, BUT bare in mind they have won some cases purely by default which is why Im trying to inform people, I certainkly am not a troll and am offending you would post such a thing, a quick click on my name will show I have been a member a while and have contributed to many discussions on here.

 

Incorrect about the CC system...ive been through it enough times to know how it works inside out

I do not encourage anybody to take up their "out of court offereing" - it is pure simple blackmail/deception - no matter how its dressed up.

The reason behind what the payment is for is irrelevant - copyright or whatever else....

I fully hope each & every person who has received this letter will say to them "Go ahead punk make my day" as a famous person used to say & let them take their court action.

The whole court system is designed in favour of whats best for the individual & ACS will find that out to their cost hopefully

Apologies if you are not a troll...but you are doing nothing but putting the fear of God up people on this thread so far in my view, when it is uneccessary & couldnt be any furthur from reality.

[andydd]

While I sympathise with you points, I'm sorry, but this is bordering on dangerous.

 

Although you're right that they have no powers to enforce any kind of money collection at this point, this is not a debt enforcement matter. It is a "warning shot" for alleged copyright infringement.

 

Although you don't have to pay a penny at this stage there is a very real risk of being taken to court for this. They state in their letters that if you don't pay, they'll take you to court. If you reply and deny it becomes a very small risk (nobody who has replied and denied have been taken to court in the last three years).

 

I don't know what people are saying about the phone numbers not working. They have been for other people. The ones on the letters are the same as for the entry in the law society database.

 

There are very real questions to be asked about this whole palaver, but immediately screaming [problem]!!! does not help one iota.

 

As rubbish as the copyright and data protection laws are in this country, the copyright holders are allowed to protect their rights. Sure, this isn't the way to go about it (I find it utterly abhorrent, myself) but such histrionics are not helpful at all.

 

Thanks..At last someone else talking sense ..And also explaing far better than i could have.

 

Andy

[penumbra]

because the huge corporations know as the law stands not even with their financial clout and very expensive lawyers that it is impossible to convict without 100% difinitve proof , there is too much resonalbe doubt , your pc needs to have its hard drive analyzed and evidence found there in and even then prove it was you using it at that time..too much room for error ... also in my case my isp was virginmedia and not cable internet limited as listed in my letter...

 

I refer you to car2403's point above. This is a civil matter, not a criminal matter. The evidence standard is "balance of probabilities" not "reasonable doubt".

 

i.e they only have to tip the judge 51 in their favour to get you stitched up like a kipper.

[tommyboy22]

also if its found that virgin media have been giving out details to this law firm without notifying the broadband user i think will damage their reputation and effect their internet uses numbers greatly..

[car2403]

also if its found that virgin media have been giving out details to this law firm without notifying the broadband user i think will damage their reputation and effect their internet uses numbers greatly..

 

Not if they've been ordered to do it by the Court

[mr.ton]

Thanks..At last someone else talking sense ..And also explaing far better than i could have.

 

Andy

 

Dont worry..im sure many other "new sign ups" will be along soon also to defend you as well

[Delta82]

also if its found that virgin media have been giving out details to this law firm without notifying the broadband user i think will damage their reputation and effect their internet uses numbers greatly..

 

 

Agreed ,I for one will not be renewing my contract with them when its up in a month or so due to this little fiasco.

[andydd]

Incorrect about the CC system...ive been through it enough times to know how it works inside out

I do not encourage anybody to take up their "out of court offereing" - it is pure simple blackmail/deception - no matter how its dressed up.

The reason behind what the payment is for is irrelevant - copyright or whatever else....

I fully hope each & every person who has received this letter will say to them "Go ahead punk make my day" as a famous person used to say & let them take their court action.

The whole court system is designed in favour of whats best for the individual & ACS will find that out to their cost hopefully

Apologies if you are not a troll...but you are doing nothing but putting the fear of God up people on this thread so far in my view, when it is uneccessary & couldnt be any furthur from reality.

 

The whole point is that you (or anyone else) is NOT in the CC system yet, it is a 'warning shot'.

 

Of course I dont want to scare people but knowledge IS power, burying your head in the sand or ignoring letters is not the way foward BUT writing to them with an itelligent informed letter is.

 

Anyone who turns up in court armed with only a belief that they are right and that the courts ALWAYS do whats best for the individual would be rather foolish.

 

PLEASE anyone who has received such a letter go to

 

Slyck.com • View topic - DL/ACS:law - I've received a letter, what should I do?

 

It has the best advice and has many links to the Lawdit site which goes into the legal points in great detail.

 

Andy

[tommyboy22]

my isp is virginmedia and not cable internet ltd as stated in my letter.....also if any laws were broken then this should be a criminal matter shouldnt it?

[andydd]

Agreed ,I for one will not be renewing my contract with them when its up in a month or so due to this little fiasco.

 

The Data Protection Act allows companies to obtain information for criminal matters ..If you google for it, i think its section 35.

[mr.ton]

Thats the thing as well...

Nobody actually knows what has gone on here & if a court has authorised anything here?

Until we know otherwise...then i will carry on screaming [problem] from the highest rooftop.

The authorities (likes of the police,OFT,trading standards) need to get to the bottom of everything here.

But i will carry on insisting that no-one pays them a penny ever until the day they ever physiically step foot in a court building..which i suspect will be in the month of never

[tommyboy22]

if my isp is virginmedia why is acs laws stating cable internet ltd?