Nationwide CCA received - help please

[Jacky202]

Hi I've received the first of five CCAs I've requested from five credit card companies and I need your help please if possible!

 

History:

I wrote to all my credit card companies requesting CCAs because I'm currently going through a financial crisis. I've been living off credit for a long time, and just recently hit a wall and realised I've got to get myself out of this mess. I've been changing my career recently (from one self-employed job to another in the hope I'll be able to bring more money in, in the long run) but it's taking me a while to get on my feet. I don't have the money to meet my minimum repayments and the bills are stacking... plus I'm constantly being called and texted by credit card companies (which I'm trying to ignore).

 

I wrote recently on another thread about the background to my situation and I asked whether I should write to all my credit card companies (that I've requested CCAs from) to request they freeze interest on my debts, and accept a token payment of £1 a month... but as I didn't want to confuse matters re the CCA requests I was advised to just wait until either the CCAs arrive or their 14 days are up and take it from there. So... that's why I'm currently avoiding the phone!

 

Now:

OK, so Nationwide specifically. Unfortunately they've dug out my signed CCA But I'm hoping you would kindly have a look at the agreement and see if there's anything I can say is unlawful, or whatever. I've attached the agreement here. I couldn't get my scanner to work so I've had to type it up! Hope this is OK.

 

Unfortunately, too, some of the text is very unclear!! They sent me a poor photocopy. Can we make do? I've highlighted the bits I can't read (just a few words at a time) as [......]. There's only a little bit.

 

Also, I asked for a statement of account and they've not sent this... Should I mention this somewhere in my response (whatever that should be!).

 

The Credit Agreement also says 'This agreement incorporates the Nationwide credit card terms and conditions on the attached sheet'. But this attached sheet is not included. Instead, they have sent me their updated (March 2009) credit card conditions leaflet. Should I write back and request the original terms and conditions? Would there be anything there that could invalidate the credit agreement?

 

If anyone's able to help me with this I'd be *so* grateful as I'm feeling really lost. This one is a big debt for me with massive (cash!) interest, so a big worry. For general reference, I've had this credit card since 2004. The original credit limit was £1,100 and my current credit limit is £4,050. I am just over this credit limit.

 

Thank you for any help you can give!! If you need more info, please just ask.

 

Thanks x

Nationwide CCA.txt

[clemma]

If you have typed EVERYTHING that appears on the form they have sent you, then I would say this is unenforceable. To be valid, it must contain the set of prescribed terms (APR, credit limit, payment schedules) - there is none of this mentioned. The T&C's won't apply because they are current ones, so have no relation to your "agreement" at all.

 

Send the following letter, recorded delivery. Remember PRINT your name, do not sign.

 

Send them the following letter:

 

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

RE: Agreement/Account number

 

Thank you for your response to my letter dated xxxxxx 2009, making a formal request for a true copy of the original credit agreement for the above account under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77-79).

 

The documents you supplied me appear to be no more than an application form, and as such are not a satisfactory response to my request. Nowhere on the front of the document is there any reference to the prescribed terms and conditions that such an agreement must contain. I must assume that these are unconnected documents and once again inadequate to satisfy your obligations.

 

As you are aware you are obliged to provide me with a true copy of my agreement as defined under Section 189 of the CCA 1974. and I consider that you have failed to comply with my request for these documents

 

 

Under the terms of the above Act, a creditor has 12 working days to provide the requested documents. This deadline has now passed and I have not received the requested documents from you.

 

As I am sure you are aware, an agreement that does not contain all of the prescribed terms, and/or is not signed by the debtor, is completely unenforceable & I therefore consider that this account is in dispute with immediate effect & it follows that all payments to this account are suspended forthwith.

 

I draw your attention to the legal requirement that a creditor is not permitted to take any action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and therefore the following applies:

You must not demand any payment on this account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

You must not add any further interest or charges to this account.

You must not pass this account to any third party.

You must not register any information in respect of this account with any of the credit reference agencies.

You must not issue a default notice on this account

I hereby give you notice that if you proceed with any of the above actions, I will file reports with the appropriate authorities, including, but not limited to, Trading Standards, Office of Fair Trading, Information Commissioners Office, Financial Ombudsman Service.

 

Yours faithfully

[Jacky202]

If you have typed EVERYTHING that appears on the form they have sent you, then I would say this is unenforceable. To be valid, it must contain the set of prescribed terms (APR, credit limit, payment schedules) - there is none of this mentioned. The T&C's won't apply because they are current ones, so have no relation to your "agreement" at all.

 

Send the following letter, recorded delivery. Remember PRINT your name, do not sign.

 

Hi Clemma,

 

Thanks for replying so quickly There's no mention anywhere of APR and payment schedules, but there is mention of the credit limit in the 'For Society Use Only' section. The original credit limit was £1,100. The other information provided in that section is the SoB Code (whatever that is), their reference number, my bank account number, my credit card account number, branch info, Nationwide signature and date. That's as detailed as it gets!

 

Their revised credit card conditions leaflet (sent with this form) dated March 2009 (I started this credit agreement in 2004) contains the APRs for Nationwide cards in general. But this is not information specific to me.

 

So do you still think I should send the letter you pasted in your email? This gives me some hope back, thank you x

[clemma]

Yep - still send it because the prescribed terms are missing. Without them they cannot enforce this "agreement"

[Jacky202]

Yep - still send it because the prescribed terms are missing. Without them they cannot enforce this "agreement"

Wicked! Thank you You've just made my day!

[Jacky202]

Under the terms of the above Act, a creditor has 12 working days to provide the requested documents. This deadline has now passed and I have not received the requested documents from you.

 

As I am sure you are aware, an agreement that does not contain all of the prescribed terms, and/or is not signed by the debtor, is completely unenforceable & I therefore consider that this account is in dispute with immediate effect & it follows that all payments to this account are suspended forthwith....

 

This is a quote from the letter you pasted, Clemma. I've just realised that their 12 working days aren't quite up yet. They have until Tue 12th May (including those extra 2 days for delivery - so 14 days total). But by the time they get this letter from me (if I post tomorrow) it'll be Friday... Do I wait and post my letter to them on Monday 11th? Or is that wrong because it's purposely not giving them time. I did get this letter from them a few days ago but sat on it because I was dreading what it might mean (old habits die hard!!!).

 

Thanks again x

[clemma]

You should wait until their 12 + 2 working days are up before sending the dispute letter. I mean, there is the very, very, very slim chance that they might send you something enforceable (but also very, very doubtful)

[Jacky202]

You should wait until their 12 + 2 working days are up before sending the dispute letter. I mean, there is the very, very, very slim chance that they might send you something enforceable (but also very, very doubtful)

 

Good point But yes I agree... totally doubtful!

Thanks for all your help! x

[Jacky202]

Agh help! I'm really worried and need advice.

 

I've just had the attached letter (retyped as I can't get my scanner working again - agh!) arrive from Nationwide because I haven't been able to afford to pay my last two months' minimum payments.

 

Current other status on this account: I sent them a CCA request and they replied this week with what they considered to be my CCA. After asking advice on this CCA here I had planned to send a letter stating that this was unacceptable as a CCA because it's just basically the form I filled in (and signed) when I applied for the credit card. It does not include payment schedules and APRs specific to my credit card, so is unenforceable. I could not send this letter until their 12+2 days are up (so I was planning to send it Monday) as the letter states they have not provided an acceptable CCA within the alotted 14 days. So now we have a crossover problem!

 

I have not discussed with them why I haven't been keeping up with my monthly minimum payments. I asked previously on CAG whether I should write to all my credit card companies stating my current financial difficulties and offering them a token payment but I was worried that sending this request at the same time as the CCA request would just confuse matters. And people here agreed. But have I now got myself into a mess because I haven't explained my circumstances to them??

 

My main question is: Do they have any right to come to my house and collect?? I do not have money to pay this bill - I'd have to give them my rent money and then not have anything to pay the rent with. I can barely afford to pay for food at the moment too - just to put you completely in the picture...

 

I have just read somewhere else on CAG (re someone else's credit card) that because the company think they have complied with the CCA request that the account is not in question, and therefore they are able to make payment demands still. Is this right?

 

Because they have not yet received the letter from me saying the account is (in my view) in question, and therefore I won't be making any payments until it is resolved, do they have the right to send this threatening collections letter?

 

I'm confused about the situation and my rights, and worried that I'm about to have people turn up on the door threatening me It's the weekend so I can't post a reply (recorded) until Monday. So by the time they receive my letter the 72 hours will be well and truly up. Their letter was dated 5th May too!!

 

Trying not to panic.... Thanks for any help! x

collection letter 1.txt

[clemma]

First of all don't panic!! It is highly unlikely that anyone will come to your home. These people are NOT bailiffs remember, and they have absolutely no rights whatsoever to turn up at your house. It's just another threat-o-gram they send out with the intent of frightening and intimidating you in the hope you will call them. Send them the following letter, along with your dispute letter, on Monday:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Account Ref xxxx

 

Please be advised that I will only communicate with you in writing.

 

Should it be your intention to arrange a “doorstep call”, please be advised that under OFT rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have no wish to make an appointment with you.

 

There is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives to visit me at my property and if you do so, then you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass and action will be taken, including but not limited to, police attendance.

 

Yours faithfully

 

IF they turn up at your door, simply hand them a copy of the above letter and slam the door. If they persist, then you can always contact the police (non emergency number) and ask them to attend. Like i said though, I doubt anyone will turn up.

 

The next thing you will probably receive is a letter from KPR (as mentioned in their letter). As this will be in dispute, they can not pass it on to anyone. If this happens, come back here and I will post up the letter you need

[Jacky202]

First of all don't panic!!

LOL thank you - I'm coming down off the ceiling now

 

Thank you for all the superb advice! This is just what I needed to hear. I'll print this letter out to have by the door and also send this plus the other letter to them on Monday, recorded.

 

It is highly unlikely that anyone will come to your home. These people are NOT bailiffs remember, and they have absolutely no rights whatsoever to turn up at your house.

So this might be a dumb question, but what's the difference between these people and bailiffs? Do bailiffs have more rights - e.g. to enter your home without appointment? And when would they come into play if necessary ... after a court order or something?

 

The next thing you will probably receive is a letter from KPR (as mentioned in their letter). As this will be in dispute, they can not pass it on to anyone. If this happens, come back here and I will post up the letter you need

Many thanks for forewarning me on what's next! I will indeed be back again LOL! Much appreciate your support x

[clemma]

Bailiffs can ONLY be sent by the court. This is only if a CCJ has been granted and you don't make the payments as ordered. This is so far down the line, and without an enforceable agreement they wouldn't be able to get a CCJ anyway

[Jacky202]

Bailiffs can ONLY be sent by the court. This is only if a CCJ has been granted and you don't make the payments as ordered. This is so far down the line, and without an enforceable agreement they wouldn't be able to get a CCJ anyway

Fab! Thanks again

[Jacky202]

Guess what.... the debt collectors came round!!! Thankfully because of your sound advice and reassurance we were fast asleep and didn't hear them knocking! LOL! (We work nights, so sleep through the morning)

 

I had the following letter hand delivered. But I sent letters to them today as advised (recorded delivery) saying I won't be answering the door to collectors and the reply about the CCA and my account now being in dispute. So we'll see what happens next!!

 

I'm really surprised they're being this agressive already...!

 

Dear .....

Account number....

Arrears Amount....

Balance Outstanding.... (This is not a redemption figure)

 

I called at your home today to discuss your account.

 

Please telephone me on ...... to agree a way forward. If you do not contact me I will take further action to recover the outstanding amount, which may involve solicitors or debt recovery agents.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

[Jacky202]

Oh and I meant to say that this was utterly outrageous because I only received the letter threatening their arrival on Saturday. They said if I don't reply in 72 hours they will arrange for the debt collectors to come to my home... They arrived Monday. I don't make that 72 hours!!!! And on a weekend, that doesn't give us chance to respond.

[Jacky202]

The next thing you will probably receive is a letter from KPR (as mentioned in their letter). As this will be in dispute, they can not pass it on to anyone. If this happens, come back here and I will post up the letter you need

 

Hi all,

 

Well there's been further action with Nationwide and I'm looking for advice again if possible.

 

They haven't passed on my debt (yet) but they have sent me a default notice and said 'If we do not reach an agreement with you, we will record information about your account with one or more Licensed Credit Reference Agencies.'

 

The default notice states my breach is that I have failed to make at least the minimum monthly payment. (Which is true for the past 2-3 months.) I did not write to them about my dire financial circumstances, but just started with the CCA request and then sent the 'I do not acknowledge this debt' letter because their agreement did not include enough information.

 

The letter then says that I must:

a) Pay the balance (over £4,000) in full; and

b) Return my card.

 

I can't afford to pay them a penny at the moment, so this does worry me that they are demanding I do!

 

They have given me 14 days from 1st June to act. If I do not act in this time then they say 'We may commence legal proceedings to recover the balance.'

 

So .... any advice please? What should I do next? Should go for a combined reply - 1) relating to my last letter to them that said they cannot make any further payment demands because I do not accept their CCA (see previous posts here). 2) Tell them about my financial circumstances - ie I have no money to give them.

 

What do you think?

 

Many thanks x

[clemma]

Sounds like a dodgy DN to me. They should only be requesting the arrears in a default notice NOT the full amount. Also, what is the date on the notice, and what date have they given you to rectify?

 

Is there any chance of scanning and posting it up (minus personal details). If it is a dodgy DN then you just have to stay quiet about it. If and when it ever went to court this WOULD go in you favour

 

Also DO not return your card - there has been a case in the past where someone returned their card and this was used in court to enforce what was (on it's own) and unenforceable agreement.

 

There is probably a letter you can send them, but I would have to have a look around for it. However, if the DN is dodgy, then I would sit back and wait for them to terminate the agreement.

Edited June 6, 2009 by clemma

[Jacky202]

Sounds like a dodgy DN to me. They should only be requesting the arrears in a default notice NOT the full amount.

 

Ohhh... interesting! I've had default notices from them already I think requesting the arrears. So maybe that's why they've taken it to the next level... and of course because of my last letter to them saying I don't acknowledge the debt!

 

Is there any chance of scanning and posting it up (minus personal details).

Will do - just need a mo to do that... Thanks!

 

If it is a dodgy DN then you just have to stay quiet about it. If and when it ever went to court this WOULD go in you favour ...if the DN is dodgy, then I would sit back and wait for them to terminate the agreement.

 

Hmm really stay quiet? Wouldn't that look bad in court on my part? And what would happen if they terminate the agreement?

 

Point noted on not returning the card - many many thanks for telling me about this!

 

Lol it's fascinating how complicated this gets lol! Thank you again x

[clemma]

Ohhh... interesting! I've had default notices from them already I think requesting the arrears. So maybe that's why they've taken it to the next level... and of course because of my last letter to them saying I don't acknowledge the debt!

 

Is this definitely a default notice then - or is it a termination notice? Will check it out once you have posted it up.

 

Hmm really stay quiet? Wouldn't that look bad in court on my part? And what would happen if they terminate the agreement?

 

No, why would it look bad? When or if it went to court, that would be the time to prepare your defence........you only found out about this little nugget of info then, whilst researching (if you catch my drift)

 

If they terminate on the back of a dodgy DN then they will struggle to enforce it through court. The DN MUST be in order - if you give them a hint that they have made an error, then what is to stop them re-issuing one correctly? Once they have terminated they CANNOT re-issue a DN.

 

Point noted on not returning the card - many many thanks for telling me about this!

 

No problem.....

[Jacky202]

OK, here's the default notice:

 

 

Just uploading the letter that accompanied it too. Thanks!

[Jacky202]

And here's the letter that accompanied the default notice....

 

Thanks!

 

[Jacky202]

Is this definitely a default notice then - or is it a termination notice?

 

Says my account's been suspended and this is my default notice... But if it's been suspended then why are they requesting I pay back the full amount on the card? Just realised that that doesn't make sense does it?

 

No, why would it look bad? When or if it went to court, that would be the time to prepare your defence........you only found out about this little nugget of info then, whilst researching (if you catch my drift)

If they terminate on the back of a dodgy DN then they will struggle to enforce it through court. The DN MUST be in order - if you give them a hint that they have made an error, then what is to stop them re-issuing one correctly? Once they have terminated they CANNOT re-issue a DN.

 

Ohhh that makes sense thank you! I was thinking I ought to reply and say something about the letter I sent before (I do not acknowledge this debt), so why send me a default notice?

I thought just staying silent and not contacting them or paying anything would go down as a black mark in the courts, for not responsibly communicating or something. (Lol reminds me of being at school!)

[clemma]

They haven't terminated your account, but merely suspended it. HOWEVER, they should only be claiming the arrears of the £228 NOT the full amount. Also, they have not given you a date with which you must rectify the situation. I'm almost sure they have to say a date, rather than stating 14 days.

 

One other issue, they have missed out an important part in the wording:

 

This is what it SHOULD look like

 

89. The notice fails to include the following statement in the prescribed form as shown below (note the correct use of Bold Text):

 

"IF THE ACTION REQUIRED BY THIS NOTICE IS TAKEN BEFORE THE DATE SHOWN NO FURTHER ENFORCEMENT ACTION WILL BE TAKEN IN RESPECT OF THE BREACH”

 

90. The Default Notice also fails to include the additional statement in the prescribed form as shown below:

 

"IF YOU DO NOT TAKE THE ACTION REQUIRED BY THIS NOTICE BEFORE THE DATE SHOWN THEN THE FURTHER ACTION SET OUT BELOW MAY BE TAKEN AGAINST YOU [OR A SURETY]"

 

91. The statements referred to in points 89 and 90 are laid out in Schedule 2 of Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1561).

 

If you note - yours does not look like this

 

have a read of this thread, as it may help you a little http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/amex/176918-how-precise-should-wording.html

[Jacky202]

Hi I'm just updating on this ongoing CCA case and wondering whether I should be doing anything at the moment?

 

When we last spoke we discussed whether the default notice was valid or not, but looking at it I think it might have been? Sorry not to have concluded that conversation earlier. The terms you said it should state were given in the notice (see scans) but they were still requesting the entire balance of the account rather than just what was overdue - so there's possibly a point to pick them up on. I'm still a bit confused on it, but not sure whether it matters at this point. I ignored it anyway - as I'd sent them the 'I do not acknowledge this agreement' letter previously.

 

Since then I've had two letters of note. The first was a letter from KPR debt collection agency stating in bold 'Discount on outstanding balance without prejudice' stating 'I'm prepared to offer you the opportunity to settle the debt by paying a one off discounted sum. We will close the account on receipt of this payment and no further action will be taken. You will not be required to pay back the remaining balance and Nationwide will record this debt as partially satisfied with credit reference agencies.'

 

I ignored this letter because I'd sent the 'I do not acknowledge this debt' letter - so if I don't acknowledge the debt, why would I pay some of the debt? Also, I'm struggling to meet £1/mth token payments on my other credit cards so I wouldn't have any money for a one-off payment anyway!

 

Then I had a letter dated 27th July with 'Final Notice' in bold from KPR. This states:

'You failed to take the action requested in our previous correspondence. your debt has now become a priority case and I cannot allow this to continue. You must call within the next ten days on [number] with an acceptable offer to repay the overdrawn balance. If you do not I will refer your account to a debt collection agency to pursue you for the outstanding debt.'

 

Should I just be holding firm in silence here? Or should I send a repeat of the letter saying I don't acknowledge the debt?

 

Thanks for any advice you can offer! x

[Jacky202]

Hi,

 

Nationwide have recently got back in touch with me about my credit card debt (about £4500). I requested a CCA about July last year. They sent the form I'd filled in for the credit card, but not what anyone here thought looked like a credit card agreement (see previous posts in this thread). I replied with a letter that Clemma posted here - saying I do not acknowledge this debt. Since I last posted there's been silence from Nationwide.

 

Now they are contacting me through CCS Collect saying the following (typed as scanner out of action):

 

'Our client Nationwide Building Society has authorised us to recover the full amount due to them.

 

We regret that if we do not receive this payment within the next seven days or an offer to pay by instalments that we are able to accept, we shall have no alternative but to take action through the Country Court to recover the amount due together with court costs and legal fees.

 

If Court action is taken and Judgement and a Court Order is made against you to recover the sum due, we may need to ask the court to make the following orders if the debt remains unpaid:

 

- Warrant of Execution. Seizure and sale of moveable property by a Country Court Bailiff

- Attachment of Earnings. Deduction from your wages by your employer

 

Payment options are set out overleaf or alternatively call us now on .... to pay or agree a repayment plan with us.

 

Yours sincerely....'

 

So my questions are:

 

1) How do I respond? Should I resend the original 'I do not acknowledge this debt' letter, but to CCS Collect this time?

 

2) Can I be sure that I'm in the right - that they don't have a proper agreement? I've not done this before and am rather nervous at the prospect of going to court.

 

3) Should they have got CCS Collect involved? Does this mean they have passed on my debt? I think someone said they wouldn't have the right to do that because the account is in dispute... or something...

 

Hope someone can help as I'm quite worried.