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cupcake68 Vs M and S


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Hi

 

Could someone please have a look at this for me please?

 

EC M and S res pictures by cupcake62 - Photobucket

 

Don't know if I am being optimistic but I think this looks a bit odd. i.e. why do certain parts of the form have extra white very straight lines around them? I cannot read the t and c's on page 2. Their covering letter states they had trouble accessing the data, does this mean it is filed on computer and they do not have the original?

 

Your comments would be most appreciated.

 

Thank you

 

Esile

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Hi Esile,

 

The agreement docs have been microfiched and don't come out too clear when printed.

 

If the two 'fiche scans can be linked, then in my opinion it would be enforceable.

 

Sorry it's not good news on this one.

  • Haha 1

 

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If a judge were to look at the documents, he would find all the prescribed terms present over the two documents even though the legibility is somewhat poor.

 

Chances are they don't have the original but can you get a judge who will put CPR 16.7(3) first and ask the creditor to produce the original at the beginning of a court case ?

 

Please do look closely at the docs and see if you can prove that they are two different docs -

Look for document codes, dates, differing fonts, the scale of fonts - look and then look again. You might just see something.

 

Look for bleedthrough on the documents on what they have sent by holding it up to the light, is there a shadow copy of the reverse ?

 

Hope this helps.

 

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HI SS!

 

Thanks so much for your constant advice!

 

I cannot see any link to the two but I will try what you said and hold them up to the light.

 

Can I write back saying I cannot read it so please send another so that I might judge as to whether it is enforceable?

 

I find the light and dark shades very odd. It's almost as if the pertinent bits may have been added in afterwards but I don't know if I am being optimistic!

 

I might also try enlarging what they sent me to see if it shows anything!

 

Thanks again.

 

Have a good bank holiday weekend!

 

Esile

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You could request a clearer copy just to see what they send but they may decline as they may feel it is legible.

 

Keep looking at the docs you have though.

 

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Hi SS

 

I have had a good look at the agreement they sent in the beautiful morning sunshine.

 

I cannot see any sign of bleedthrough. I am convinced the bit at the top of the third column on terms and conditions, where they have the apr info, looks like it has been pasted on. You can see a white block around the text and it is much darker text then the rest of the text.

 

The other thing I have noticed is, the t and c's are not straight on the sheet but I would say it looks like it is attached to another sheet because in the top left hand corner you can see a line. The main application form does not look like it has another half as I can see black all the way around the edge.

 

I'm not sure if you will understand that! And I don't know how that helps but that is all my non expert eye can see!

 

Esile

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Non expert eye.........You're getting good at this. ;)

 

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Morning!

 

Yes non expert eye having to learn pretty fast!!!

 

I am thinking I should write back and ask them to supply a copy that I can read and see where that takes me. Do you think I should?

 

Esile

 

Ps are you now a member of the site team because you have helped so many people?

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There is nothing to stop you asking for a legible copy.

 

Also if there is any doubt about the authenticity of this document they can be brought to 'Strict Proof' if there was any CCJ application, meaning they would have to produce the original signed document.

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Yes, there's no harm in that.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi

 

I have received this DN notice today. http://s683.photobucket.com/albums/vv199/cupcake62/EC%20M%20and%20S%20res/EC%20m%20ans%20res%20dn%20rec%20150509/

 

From what BRW and The Shadow have been telling me there are terms they have to follow and I don't think this one does.

 

Any comments please?

 

Esile

Edited by esile172
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They haven't given the prescribed 14 days from receipt to remedy the default, so it is defective. Keep it safe along with the envelope for future use & don't let on that it is improperly served. :D

 

As soon as they close the account they'll only be able to claim the arrears not the remaining balance. ;)

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Hi esile,

 

As B_R_W and The Shadow have stated in other posts, this Default Notice would indeed be defective.

 

Keep this safe and also the envelope it came in.

 

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Thanks Cerb and SS!

 

I love you great people!!!!!!!

 

You should be paid what the banks and politicians earn put together X10!!

 

Esile

 

Also whilst youre waiting for them to terminate, have a look back at your statements and see if they have added unfair charges, late payments fees etc, this makes the amount of arrears overstated too.

 

Doesnt hurt to build up a couple of things wrong with a DN rather than just one :-)

 

S.

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Hello Esile172!

 

Could someone please have a look at this for me please?

 

EC M and S res pictures by cupcake62 - Photobucket

 

Don't know if I am being optimistic but I think this looks a bit odd. i.e. why do certain parts of the form have extra white very straight lines around them? I cannot read the t and c's on page 2. Their covering letter states they had trouble accessing the data, does this mean it is filed on computer and they do not have the original?

 

Just had a quick look at that Application Form, and I'm not sure those two scans are linked in any way.

 

Thinking plainly, if you had an oblong page and a scanner, you would scan the Front, then you would flip the page over and you'd scan the Back...so being pedantic, you'd expect to see two oblong scans, both portrait orientation and both with the same background noise in the blackness of the Scanning Bed...similar artefact bits and bobs and white lines etc.

 

Yet here we have two scans, one portrait with a document in portrait, and one portrait with a document in landscape.

 

Plus, if you look, the background scan marks are completely different. The Application Signature Page/Front has very few white line artefacts in the background black, just bits and spots.

 

By comparison, the Terms/Rear have many white lines in the background blackness...like these two were not copied at the same time, on the same day, using the same equipment.

 

Another odd fact is the Terms/Rear are not easily linked to the Signature Page/Front, as the orientation of both seems weird and is not easily linked. It looks very odd.

 

Assuming the Terms/Rear would be the same size/shape as the Signature Page/Front, then you'd expect the Rear to be oblong and in portrait format.

 

But the Rear seems to be either in landscape format or, if in portrait format, it is only taking up the lower 1/3 of the page.

 

If in landscape format, then why does the top left of the page run upwards, instead of being cut off to make it the same size as the Signature Page/Front...the sheet obviously carries on, so what you see is not the whole page...so it's a scan of a bigger page.

 

If both were scanned at the same scale using the same equipment, on the same day, then how big exactly is the size of the Rear Page then? It takes up far more room on the scanning bed than the Front...and yet one is supposed to be the back of the other. This doesn't tally.

 

It looks to me that the Terms are scanned from either a multi-fold document, so does not relate to the Front which appears to be a single page possibly with something on the back, but there's nothing I can see to say or refer to anything on the back.

 

Please be aware that M&S have a poor track record of responding accurately to CCA and S.A.R. Requests...they have a habit of grabbing any Terms they think will do, even if the Terms are from another document or another person's documents. I know for a fact that they have previously sent exactly the same alleged Rear Page of Terms to two different Caggers...same scan, same Barcode, same numerical references. Neither seemed to relate to the Front, so my guess is the Terms in that case related to neither, and were probably the same ones they sent to many more people than the two Caggers I am aware of.

 

M&S also have a bad habit of sending back other peoples S.A.R. details, so have a damned good look at anything they send, and you may well find other Data in there that is not your own. If you do, complain to the ICO.

 

In summary, I cannot see how these two scans are linked. The only issue is the Terms have what appear to be a date of 97 towards the lower bottom right (or top right if viewed as it is Scanned).

 

I would send them a SAR if you have not already done so, just to get another look.

 

Then I would consider the CPR 31.16 Request route to ask to make a Physical Inspection...and, if they push things as far as a Court Claim, then hit them straight away with a CPR 31.14 Request to ask them yet again to make a Physical Inspection.

 

Cheers,

BRW

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Hi BRW

 

I like your way of thinking!!

 

Should I not wait to see if they send me a default notice before I do anything else?

 

If they do I will not have to prove any of those things as the default was defective - Am I right? (Have I grasped what you have been trying to teach me????!!!!)

 

I used to lay awake wishing for a miracle now I sleep dreaming of defective DN's and it's all thanks to CAG!!

 

Esile;)

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They've already sent the Default Notice, what you need now is for them to close the a/c and sell it on. When they do that, because of the defective DN all they will be able to claim is the arrears at the time of the default, the balance of the a/c would have to be written-off because the DN was improperly served.

 

So, if you cannot prove that the prescribed terms were not included within the four corners of the agreement, at least you will only have to pay a lesser ammount. ;)

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Yay!

 

I can't wait for them to pass it on!!!! (How ironic - I have dreaded that day and tried so hard to avoid it and now...)

 

Do they not send me something to say they have terminated? So far the DN just says they "may"?

 

Esile:D

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Yes they have to send you a Notice of Assignment when they pass it on to an outside DCA.

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Make sure you do not post anything which identifies you. Although we can remove certain things from the site unless it's done in a timely manner everything you post will appear in Google cache & we do not have any control over that.

 

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Whatever you do don't let them know about the dodgey DN before the account is closed & assigned. ;)

Anthrax alert at debt collectors caused by box of doughnuts

 

Make sure you do not post anything which identifies you. Although we can remove certain things from the site unless it's done in a timely manner everything you post will appear in Google cache & we do not have any control over that.

 

Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit

 

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