NDR, Should i send a CCA letter ?

[MikeMurder]

Hi again,

 

I recently posted about our situation in another chaps thread because he was dealing with the same company (NDR), I decided i need to start my own thread.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/194799-kays-ace-ambrose-wilson.html#post2109724

 

We had a running catalogue account with our brother in law in my wifes name at Empire Stores. She had been in it via her brother in law who was the agent for aprox 10 - 13 years.

 

In 2008 our catalogue agent packed it all in and sent of the bills to the catalogue because Empire had been bought by Littlewoods and he didn't like their new rules for catalogue agents.

 

We have never had catalogue books for bought items as we trusted our own family member (the agent) so we had no records of what and how much.

we got a letter from Empire in May 2008 telling us about the agent quiting and informing us how much we owed. *see below*

 

Empire Letter, May2008

 

After receiving this letter i was surprised that there where no details regarding our accounts (my understanding is that each item bought has it's own account) so i phoned Empire (with my wifes permission to speak for her) to ask for this information, this was when i was told they didn't have that information.

This revelation was to me very worrying, surely the catalogue company should have this information, after all if they don't know what goods i have purchased and how much i have paid of each account how on earth can they operate legitimatly?

 

Not long after the phone conversation i recieved another letter. *see below*

 

Empire Letter, June 2008

 

No further information on this matter was ever given, all they gave me was a total sum, which they aparently have no way of showing how they arrived at this figure?

 

When paying via the Agent we where not due to start paying for some of the items we had gotten till later in the year (clearance offers, buy now pay october etc etc), we always worked it so that as one account was paid in full a new account was due to start, this way we kept the monthly payments down.

Because of the manner in which Empire was now billing us all that careful planning was out of the window and we where faced with larger monthly repayments, the inevitable happened and we fell behind a bit (£158.38).

 

We contacted Empire to work something out because because we couldn't maintain the £150 pcm payments (my wife is on DLA & income support, i am her full time carer and only receive carers allowance). The lady we spoke with was realy nice and told us to make a £10 good will gesture payment for the time being until they work out a new payment plan we could afford, which is what we did with much relief.

imagine our surprise when the following month, instead of a new payment plan we received a letter from NDR for the Empire Stores bill !! *see below*

 

NDR letter October 2008

 

After many heated discussions over a few months with NDR we finally got a payment plan from them for £135 pcm, it wasn't realy much help at all

We had become so dismayed that we tried for a bank loan to pay off NDR but where refused, we just wanted to be rid of them and so settled on this figure and resigned ourselves to be shafted by NDR!

 

A couple of weeks back i was toying with trying the CCA letter on NDR as i know we have not signed anything ever for Empire but the whole thing is realy taking it's toll on my wife who suffers from severe depression and OCD, she was making herself ill with worry at the thought of taking NDR on so i decided to just pay up each month.

 

Our last payment was 2 days late paying because we had to wait for our money to go into the bank before we paid (we only have a debit card), we got a letter from NDR on the 4th of April and it was telling us that they are charging us £12 for paying 2 days late! *see below*

 

NDR letter April 2009

 

Today while re reading the relevant letters i noticed something that realy was the last straw, they where using the Consumer Credit Act to justify charging us a late payment charge and it was the final straw.

We have been paying and since this all started we have paid almost £1400. I think enough is enough and i should send them a CCA request letter and with hold this payment that is due now. what do you guys think?

 

If someone could please advise us on this issue it would go a long way to convincing my wife to stand up to these bullies, she wanted me to phone them today but i have to admit the prospect of speaking to thier collection dept had me feeling quite ill as in the past they have always been obtuse and left me feeling like ****.

 

thanks,

 

Mike.

[Nagasis]

I would definately send a cca request off. Empire have opened an account (in their first letter to you) without your permission.

 

NDR also state that they are charging you £12 for breaking the agreement, What agreement? you have never signed one.

 

Without an agreement which they clearly won't have you owe them nothing.

[MikeMurder]

Sent the letter on Friday, they should have received it today so i am counting the 12 +2 days.

Will post up whatever reply they choose to send me

Edited May 10, 2009 by MikeMurder

[diamondgirl]

You've made the first steps, if the phone calls start tell them you will only communicate with them in writing. Make sure you keep a copy of anything you send to them and keep safe anything you receive from them including the envelopes they come in and write the date you received it on the envelope if it is not a franked one. Knowing catalogues they won't have anything to send you. One other thing anything you send to them make sure you don't sign it with your usual signature, digital print, type, just initials but don't sign anything with your usual signature.

DG:)

[MikeMurder]

there was no signature on the letter, it was typed on the PC along with the rest of the letter and we are ready for any phone calls.

I am expecting more underhanded tactics, tbh thats the reason we are doing this in the first place. Just gotta hang in there and not be intimidated

 

Thanks,

 

Mike.

[MikeMurder]

Just recieved a Phone call from Empire Stores, the lady was asking for my wife but i said "Can i ask you that all communication from this time on is done in writing as requested in my wife's letter to you, thank you. Bye!" then hung up the phone.

 

i Just used the royal mails website to track the letter we sent them (the CCA request) and it was delivered on the 6th of May. Couple of days ago we recieved letters informing us that our payment was overdue and they where going to add a 2nd £12 charge because we have broken the terms of our "agreement"

Think it's the standard bumf they send out for late payments so i disregarded it and filed it away with all the other mail we are collecting from NDR & Empire.

[diamondgirl]

Quite right just wait for the 12 + 2 see if you get anything from the monkeys. You can always have a go later to see what costs you claim back.

DG:)

[MikeMurder]

Hi again, My wife (Pam) just received a response to our CCA request from Empire Stores (it was sent to NDR but Empire phoned us and replied to the request, are they now trying to appear reasonable?).

 

As expected they are unable to locate an executed CCA and have sent out a blank one. here are links to the scanned letter and T&C they sent out.

 

Empire stores initial response to our CCA request.

Atatched blank CCA

atatched.T&C.jpg

 

I know roughly what our next course of action is but i am not sure which letter to send them?

I must say though that this whole thing has so far been taking a real toll on my wife (Not just us disputing the agreement but all the dealings and phone calls with NDR who managed to make us feel like ****), she suffers with depression and OCD and so far has been panicking in case she had signed something or as she said "what if they send out Bailfs" lol

 

I keep telling her things are ok and we are acting within the letter of the law but having Empire respond exactly how you guys have said they would and also the fact that now she knows for sure she has never signed an agreement has gone a long way to reassuring her and calming her down over the whole matter, i must say the phone call from Empire yesterday realy shook her up.

So even though this is only just starting up i wanted to let you all know how thankful we both are to all the people past, present & future who give help and advice to those of us in need.

 

Mike.

[diamondgirl]

That's what everyone is here for, we've all been through it one way or another or are still going through it.

With regards to the continuous telephone calls send them the harrassment letter from the template or you could send the one below which is basically the same.

Harassment by telephone

 

Account Number: XXXXXXX

 

I am writing in relation to the quantity and frequency of telephone calls that I have received from your company, which I deem to be personally harassing.

 

I have verbally requested that these stop, but I am still receiving calls. (delete if necessary)

 

I now require all further correspondence from your company to be made in writing only.

 

I am of the view that your continued harassment of me by telephone puts you in breach of Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970, and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

 

If you continue to harass me by telephone, you will also be in breach of the Communications Act (2003) s.127 and I will report you to OFCOM, Trading Standards and The Office of Fair Trading, meaning that you will be liable to a substantial fine.

 

Be advised that any further telephone calls from your company will be recorded. (Even if you don‘t yet have recording equipment!)

 

Yours faithfully

(dont sign it just print your name)

 

Tell your OH not to worry about bailiffs its not gone to court and even if it did theres no saying they would instruct a bailiff. Anyone who calls just tell them to away or you'll call the police and have them removed.

You never have to let them in to your property, it's yours, and only you can decide who to let in.

 

Hope this helps a little.

DG:)

[MikeMurder]

Going to send this letter to NDR, can someone just read it through and confirm i have done the right letter please?

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE!

 

Date:19/05/09

 

Ref: Account/Reference Number ********

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter of 12/05/09, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On 01/05/09 I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. This was signed for as delivered on the 6th of May 2009

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on 15/05/09.

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before you/your client enters into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 78(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested. You will also be aware of the CPUTR 2008 and the OFT's guidelines on debt collection which state under the title Deceptive and/or unfair methods - Examples of unfair practices are as follows - 2.8

 

(i) - 'Failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued'

 

(k) - 'Not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonable queried or disputed debt'

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

Finally, as you have failed to comply with my request, I require you to return my £1.00 fee without delay.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Just a quick question before i send this letter. initialy our CCA request went to NDR but the response letter we got was from a

"Mr Mark Warburton" from Empire Stores Admin Support Team. Do i reply to Mr Warburton at Empires Stores or continue to direct

my letters to NDR at the same address the CCA request was sent to?

are they trying to stall/delay/confuse matters by backing and fro'ing between Empire & NDR?

 

thanks

 

Mike.

Edited May 19, 2009 by MikeMurder
additional query.

[diamondgirl]

Hi

It looks okay to me but hang on a short while and see if anyone else has anything to add.

DG:)

[MikeMurder]

will do, still unsure wether to send it to Empire who replied to my CCA request or to NDR who i sent the CCA request to? I know they are both run by the same people but i don't want to give them any reason at all to stall or cause us any more grief.

[MikeMurder]

Sent the letter today by special delivery (next day delivery) to NDR at the same address as the CCA request went to.

 

i guess it's time for the proverbial poop to hit the fan now isn't it lol

 

Does anyone have any idea of what type of response we might expect?

 

I know they are not going to just accept it despite it seeming apparent that the letter of the law says they can't enforce the debt, I would be lying if i said we where not feeling very nervous and anxious about the whole thing now, We can't seem to shake the feeling that we are doing something wrong and will end up in trouble

 

I know that's daft, i guess we are just to flipping soft when it comes down to it

[MikeMurder]

Got a reply this morning but it wasn't from NDR or Empire Stores?

 

This time it was from "Shop Direct Finance company LTD."

what are they playing at... are they passing us about ?lol

 

Anyway... it wasn't quite the response i was expecting, it seems that there attitude has changed to a friendlier one. We where expecting all manner of threats, I guess they realise now that we have been made aware of our rights and the letter of the law

 

here is the letter we got today:

 

Letter from Shop Direct Finance LTD

 

so what is the next course of action? Obviously we have no intention of taking them up on the offer of using their complaints procedure

 

Mike.

[maroondevo52]

Hi, Mike.

 

I'd wait until they contact you after a full investigation of your concerns havs been made

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[MikeMurder]

Will do Scott, thanks for the quick reply

 

Mike.

[MikeMurder]

NDR letter April 2009

 

Got a Letter from NDR today, it was a statement and another letter the same as the quoted one above telling us that we had broken our agreement and NDR where going to add another £12 charge to our bill.

 

Probably an automated letter, it wasn't signed at all. It did however make me want to phone them up and give them an earfull about paying attention to the status of their customers accounts.... but i resisted the urge lol

[MikeMurder]

RESULT!!!

 

We received a letter from "Shop Direct Finance Company LTD" today, they have informed us that they will NOT be enforcing the Account (£1123.30) and that we can consider this letter as their "final response" lol

 

They do however say that our records in their internal files will show that the account remains unsatisfied and that this information will be shared with credit reference agencies?

I was under the impression that they would not be able to hold this information let alone share it with credit reference agencies?

 

I may have miss interpreted the letter though, you can read it for yourselves:

Shop Direct letter, page 1

Shop Direct letter, page 2

 

I have to admit, After all the bullsh*t that they put us through on the phones before we found the C.A.G i was kind of expecting more of a fight, i am somewhat relieved as it has been like a dark cloud looming on our horizon for a while now

 

You guys are brilliant

[diamondgirl]

Well done, it certainly reads that way to me.

 

Again well done one for the Caggers.

 

DG:D

[maroondevo52]

Hi, Mike.

 

Good stuff, looks like they won't be chasing you, I noticed they say they reserve the right to do so, if they come up with the agreement

 

Thats the blab Cabot hit me with about two years ago.

Not sure what the score is regarding the CRA's but to them the debt still exists, they just can't enforce it

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[MikeMurder]

I guess they are what i like to refer as "parting shots", one last opportunity for them to try and throw some weight around (weight i now know they don't have thanks to the CAG)

 

They can reserve the right all they like just in case they find the missing "CCA" as me and my wife both know it doesn't exist

 

Our income support is paid on Thurs so i will gratefully make a small donation by way of a thank you to the CAG and it's Caggers.

 

You guys have saved us so much worry and stress, thank you

[MikeMurder]

Just made a donation to the CAG but just as i clicked the button in paypal i realised i had not put my username in the "tell us who you are" box lol

 

no worries, i guess i am anonymous

*EDIT* my names (Mike Speakman) on my receipt email from pay pal so i guess you will also get that info too.

Edited June 26, 2009 by MikeMurder

[maroondevo52]

Good stuff, Mike Thank you.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.