Halifax CCA - ?enforceable

[skint40]

Asked for a CCA and have been sent this. Not sure if it is enforceable or not (hope it's not!!!).

 

Also got a 6 page document entitled Credit Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 'conditions of use' which has my old address on it (which is the address I was at when I applied for the card) and also another copy of the conditions of use with my new address on it.

 

The copy of the Credit Agreement has the the paragraphs '6. about your statements' and '7. Important financial and related details' but there isn't a reference number or anything on it.

 

Can someone have a look at it and let me know what they think - thanks.

 

 

 

 

[skint40]

bump

[st82]

very interesting - I asked Halifax for a CCA request and got a similar letter from Anne Gartshore but stating that they do not have to provide me with a copy of the original signed agreement. I then just got a copy of the standard terms and conditions.

As soon as I get to a scanner later this morning I'll put mine up under st82 Vs Halifax

[babydoll0141917]

subbing

[scooby3408]

Interesting I'm thinking about cca Halifax so i will be following good luck

[skint40]

Thanks for your responses.

 

Have held off sending them an account in dispute letter as I'm not sure if this agreement has all that it should have and wonder why the paragraphs 6 & 7 were photocopied on the back. Where's numbers 1-5???:confused:

[st82]

skint - how did you get your pics in the post?

[skint40]

I scan them first (saved as jpeg) and then upload them into photobucket. Once they're on photobucket I copy and paste the 'IMG Code' for each scan into the message. I always preview post before submitting as I've a habit of forgetting to take out all the personal details!!

 

I'm sure this is a long way round but it's the only way I have found that works on my stupid computer!

 

Hope that helps

[babydoll0141917]

Hi

 

a lot of us have these ccas/applications from halifax..there is no codes..pto..page numbers or overleaf..on the agree/app it says you have received a copy and read and are bound by the conditions of use .Which avers to the conditions of use being in another document..Any one can paste something on the back of the doc ..but what none of us know is were they there when we signed ..i havent paid halifax for a yr ..it just gets passed to one DCA to another ..if haliprats had any ace cards up their sleeves they would of used them by now surely

[st82]

nice one skint - im putting my cca up now. The main letter is a bit different to yours . . .

[susiemac77]

Have you had any progress with this?

 

I received an identical letter form Anne Gartshore only mine was just terms and conditions headed up as agreement with my current address instead of the address at time of application, it also had current interest rate (much higher than original application!)

 

No idea how to progress as they claim they have fulfilled their obligation

[skint40]

Hi

 

I've not progressed anything further yet. Like you, Halifax are claiming that they have fulfilled their requirements and I'm not sure where to go from here.

 

This link shows why a CCA should not be requested under S77/78 - it's rather a lot of reading http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

 

I must admit that I haven't read it all yet as it is so big but if you come up with anything let me know

[MRS_P]

subbing

[Lenny1245]

I have had a similar reply from halifax but it doesn't give me a signed agreement just stating it does not have to send me one and pages of terms and conditions. Not sure what to reply with either to be honest very new at this! But trying to get it sorted so we can sleep at night again!

 

L x

[stretch182]

I too have had a similar reply from the Halifax - with a "reconstituted version" of the agreement!

 

Will watch with interest

 

Good Luck

[MRS_P]

For those of you getting T&C's back from CCA requests might want to consider doing a DSAR, check my threads in my signature I originally requested a DSAR it contained agreements all be it they are acutually applications. Also the DSAR should contain things like Default and termination notices, notice of assignment etc which may be of use in the latter stages.

 

Also check out the CPR 31.16 threads http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html and http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/165349-smt37-morgan-stanley-goldfish.html

 

Regards Mrs_P

[skint40]

I am no further forward with Halifax - they have always claimed that they fulfilled their obligations. I sent them Account in Dispute letter but continue to phone several times a day from 8am until about 8pm. They've even started withholding their number!!

 

As Mrs P suggestd I am going to send them a DSAR but just haven't got round to it yet.

[Spice57]

subbing

[silverfox1264]

Asked for a CCA and have been sent this. Not sure if it is enforceable or not (hope it's not!!!).

 

Also got a 6 page document entitled Credit Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 'conditions of use' which has my old address on it (which is the address I was at when I applied for the card) and also another copy of the conditions of use with my new address on it.

 

The copy of the Credit Agreement has the the paragraphs '6. about your statements' and '7. Important financial and related details' but there isn't a reference number or anything on it.

 

Can someone have a look at it and let me know what they think - thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi,

 

I have today received exactly the same letter from halifax regarding my credit card. Again from Ann Gartshore. Seems to be a standard letter. They had enclosed a copy of what they say is my reconstituted version of the executed agreement and a copy of the the terms and conditions and a signed statement of my account, signed by anne gartshore. Is the the debt enforceable?

Edited October 22, 2009 by silverfox1264

[skint40]

Hi silverfox1264

 

I never received any more from Halifax. I have tried a CCA request and also recently tried an SAR request. The time has now lapsed for the SAR request and it has also been ignored. I have stopped paying them and put the account in dispute but they continue to phone several times a day.

 

I'm unsure yet as to what I am going to do next. I need to trawl through this site to find out what others have done.

[vint1954]

These agreements are unenforcable. If they have the original to photocopy the front from, why not photocopy the rear.

 

Send this

 

xxxxxx 2009.

Dear xxxxxxxxx,

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

Re account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I write regarding recent communication regarding the above account. I acknowledge no dept to your organisation.

Further to my request under the above act, your attention is drawn to the fact that this account remains subject to a lawful serious dispute. On xxxxxxxx, by recorded delivery, I requested that you supply me a copy of the executed credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78, a copy of this request is enclosed. To date you have failed to comply with my request, supplying only request form, devoid of all prescribed terms, and generic terms & conditions, which cannot be linked to any agreement which you claim that I have signed. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to you, nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I have also sent an account in dispute letter to you on xxxxxxxxx, which has been ignored.

Contrary to your assertion, xxxxxxxx have not complied with the terms of CCA 1974 s78. The documents that you have supplied, do not comply with your duties to supply a “True Copy” of any agreement you claim to have been signed by me, for pre 2007 agreements. As you will be further aware, an agreement is not executed, until signed by both parties, so the document that you have supplied, being a reconstruction, cannot be a True Copy of an Executed Agreement.

While this account remains in serious dispute, the relevant main points of the Law and OFT regulations while the account is in this state and xxxxxx remain in default are:

• You may not ask for payment against this account.
  
• I am not obliged to offer any payment against this account.
  
• You cannot register any data with a third party.
  
• You cannot take any enforcement action, including registering Defaults.
  
• You cannot pass the account on to a third party for collection.
  
• You cannot sell the account.
  

Let me explain here, what a true copy is:

In a recent letter from the enforcement department of the OFT, the text below was quoted, explaining what is required.

“The copy of the executed agreement need not be an exact copy but it must be a ‘true copy’ and not some reconstruction of what the original might have been and it must contain the same terms as the original. Where the terms have been varied as provided for within the agreement, the copy of the original agreement must be accompanied by a document setting out the current terms, as varied. Certain details may be omitted from the original agreement eg the signature but the debtor must be in no doubt as to the true nature of his obligations under the loan.

 

Should no original agreement be in existence it is very hard to say that the copy the creditor offers to the debtor is, in fact, a true copy as there would be no original with which to compare it. In our view the onus of proof would be on the creditor to show that the copy is a true one and where none existed he may have difficulty discharging this. Neither should creditors suggest that a consumer has signed a credit agreement where they are unable to provide evidence to support this — to do so is likely to be a misleading action under Regulation 5 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (the CPRs) and would also constitute an unfair or improper business practice.”

 

I also refer you to the information below.

1. A valid credit agreement must contain certain terms within the signature document (s.60(1)(2) CCA 1974). These core terms are the credit limit, repayment terms and the rate of interest (SI 1983/1553 (6 Signing of agreement) which states that the prescribed terms must be within the signature document. (Column 2 schedule 6). s.61(1)(a) states the agreement must contain all the prescribed terms and be signed by both the debtor and on behalf of the creditor.

 

 

2. Further, s.127(3) CCA 1974 makes the account unenforceable if it is not in the proper form and content or improperly executed.

 

In Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd (2007) it was stated “In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties … and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s.61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement”.

 

2. The need for prescribed terms to be contained in the credit agreement is confirmed by the Author of the CCA1974 act, I quote ““As the draftsman of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 I would like to thank Dr Richard Lawson for his interesting and well-argued article (30 August 2003) on Wilson v First County Trust Ltd [2003] UKHL 40, [2003] 4 All ER 97.

 

Dr Lawson may be interested to know that I included the provision in question (section 127(3)) entirely on my own initiative. It seemed right to me that if the creditor company couldn’t be bothered to ensure that all the prescribed particulars were accurately included in the credit agreement it deserved to find it unenforceable, and that the court should not have power to relieve it from this penalty. Nobody queried this, and it went through Parliament without debate. I’m glad the House of Lords has now vindicated my reasoning and confirmed that nobody’s human rights were infringed.” - 167 Justice of the Peace (2003) 773.”

I am now granting to you a further 7 days to produce a copy of an executable agreement. After that I will consider that the above matter is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt. If you are insisting that the non enforceable document, that you have supplied, is the only alleged agreement in your possession, then I would suggest that the best course of action would be to immediately set the balance of the above account number to zero.

I look forward to your response.

[vint1954]

Further problems are that they need to show their registered address and reg no on all forms. They have used a Cardiff addres which is not their registered address. This does not help with the unenforcability of the agreement, but a point to be remembered for later letters. It is a criminal offence.

[skint40]

Hi vint1954

 

I've actually sent this letter as well as the CCA letter and SAR letter. They have totally ignored the SAR letter and I know it has arrived as it was signed for.

 

What's my next step?

[skint40]

Hi vint1954

 

Apologies - ignore my last entry. I didn't read your account in dispute letter properly and didn't realise that it was different to the account in dispute letter that I have sent.

 

I will send this letter off and see what happens.

 

Many thanks for your help

[skint40]

Hi vint1954Also meant to ask... I'm going to send off your recommended letter this week but wondered what happens after this if Halifax ignores this letter too. What is my next step?