mbna/optima legal court papers- help

[bnkrob]

I have just recieved court papers from Northampton bulk county court- for a mbna credit card debt- I am in quandry as to wether to admit or defend- I have been been through the stages of requesting and recieving both a CCA & SAR- In both cases all very interesting account details but no actual signed CCA- just a completed signed application form- Mbna have failed to acknowledge that this debt in dispute and claim the information sent will be suffuice to be enforceable in court.

They have passed it on to Optima and court action- do I have any sort of defence? if I admit this debt and include other debts I am in default with to other companies on the admission form- will this then compromise me if these other companies take court action? any thoughts much appreciated

[diamondgirl]

Can you scan or digital copy and post the details of the 1st page court doc blotting out any of your personal details?

You need to acknowledge service to the courts you can do this on line and and gives you some extra time.

Anything you can post up for all to look at will help greatly.

DG:)

[WelshMam2009]

I think the reason they keep sending out copies of application forms (apart from the fact that they probably don't have any signed agreements) is because s127(3) of CCA 74 says that if they have a signed document containing all of the prescribed terms (even if not in prescribed form) then they can get an enforcement.

 

So, whilst an application form may not suffice as a legitimate CCA response, it can be enforced providing it is signed and contains all of the prescribed terms.

[citizenB]

As as court claim has been received, I have moved your thread to the Legal Issues forum.

[I've got no money]

Don't admit anything...

 

1. Send the CPR 31.14 letter immediately by first class recorded delivery to the claimants solicitors - make sure that you only give them 7 days to reply. When they don't reply in 7 days send them a chasing letter on the 8th day enclosing a copy of the CPR 31.14 letter and telling them if they don't provide the documents within 7 days that you will apply for an Order. At this stage you won't have enough information to make a proper decision on the claim - you need docs from them.

 

2. You need to check the dates on the summons and check the response pack - you need to file an acknowledgment of service saying that you intend to defend the claim. That then gives you more time to file a defence

 

3. The objective is to get enough information from the other side to allow you to decide if they have a legally valid claim and if it is worthwhile defending it.

[Viscount Stair]

Did the signed application form actually contain all of the prescribed terms? That is the important question.

 

And a double sided photocopy is not necessarily a photocopy of a double sided document.

[creditcardmug]

Hi, can you post up or type the Particulars of claim?

 

What is the date on the claim form?

 

How old is the card account?

 

Have you ever had a Default Notice?

 

You need to send a cpr request as has been said above

[bnkrob]

Can you scan or digital copy and post the details of the 1st page court doc blotting out any of your personal details?

You need to acknowledge service to the courts you can do this on line and and gives you some extra time.

Anything you can post up for all to look at will help greatly.

DG:)

 

Thanks Diamondgirl-

attached is claim form-

will try an post the application form tomorrow

northampton cc.pdf

[bnkrob]

Don't admit anything...

 

1. Send the CPR 31.14 letter immediately by first class recorded delivery to the claimants solicitors - make sure that you only give them 7 days to reply. When they don't reply in 7 days send them a chasing letter on the 8th day enclosing a copy of the CPR 31.14 letter and telling them if they don't provide the documents within 7 days that you will apply for an Order. At this stage you won't have enough information to make a proper decision on the claim - you need docs from them.

 

2. You need to check the dates on the summons and check the response pack - you need to file an acknowledgment of service saying that you intend to defend the claim. That then gives you more time to file a defence

 

3. The objective is to get enough information from the other side to allow you to decide if they have a legally valid claim and if it is worthwhile defending it.

 

where do I find CPR letter and what is an order ?-

from the SAR I recieved there's seems a lot detail about when and where I used this credit card- I even seems to have set up banking on line at one point with MBNA- which I forgot about -I think my only defence could be the application form won't stand up - will post that up tomorrow

[diamondgirl]

Don't admit anything...

 

1. Send the CPR 31.14 letter immediately by first class recorded delivery to the claimants solicitors - make sure that you only give them 7 days to reply. When they don't reply in 7 days send them a chasing letter on the 8th day enclosing a copy of the CPR 31.14 letter and telling them if they don't provide the documents within 7 days that you will apply for an Order. At this stage you won't have enough information to make a proper decision on the claim - you need docs from them.

 

2. You need to check the dates on the summons and check the response pack - you need to file an acknowledgment of service saying that you intend to defend the claim. That then gives you more time to file a defence

 

3. The objective is to get enough information from the other side to allow you to decide if they have a legally valid claim and if it is worthwhile defending it.

 

Have you sent the cpr letter off yet.

You need to do the acknowledgment of service do it on line as shown on the papers it gives you more time to get everything together.

If you sign your name on any letter put lines through it (so it can't be copied and pasted).

The more docs you can post up the better so we can all get a better idea of whats going on.

I've got to go out now but I'll have a look at the claim when I get back if I'm sober enough (Don't really drink coz I drive) - got to celebrate my win of sorts over a DCA which couldn't have been done without all the help from the CAGGERS.

DG:D

[bnkrob]

Did the signed application form actually contain all of the prescribed terms? That is the important question.

 

And a double sided photocopy is not necessarily a photocopy of a double sided document.

 

will post applicatiobn form copy tomorrow

[bnkrob]

where can I find cpr letter? thanks

[creditcardmug]

Dont sign it just type your name

 

Have a good read of this letter, (YOU WILL NEED TO EDIT IT) then send it recorded delivery to the opposing solicitors.....and have a read of the link in post number 4 above.....

 

 

 

Dear Sir,

 

Re: (Claimant's name) v (Your name) Case No:

CPR 31.14 Request

 

On (date) I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the (Name) County Court.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim.

 

[Prior to the issue of proceedings I had delivered a request for the production of the agreement mentioned in the Claim Form and on which you rely. That request was ignored][delete if no such request was delivered]

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of [each of the following / the] document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1 the agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

2 the default notice*

 

* delete if not mentioned in the Particulars of claim.

 

[Although your claim is for a sum which is not more than £5,000.00 and will in all likelihood be allocated to the small claims track for determination upon my delivering a defence, at this moment in time I have not delivered my defence and the case has not been allocated to a track. In consequence the provisions of CPR 27(2) are of no effect and you should not seek to avoid compliance with your CPR 31 duties by claiming otherwise]#

 

# delete if claim for a sum exceeding £5,000.00

 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

yours faithfully

[bnkrob]

Thanks for everyones help- I am posting a copy of the application form MBNA sent in a SAR as the "credit agreement " if any body would be so kind to have a look at... it looks micro fiched to me- and I can't spot on the signed front any mention of credit limit,interest rates etc and the the supposed back copy is there anything that would suggest it's part of the same document ?

mbna appl1.pdf

mbnaappl2.pdf

[I've got no money]

An Order - basically the CPR says that things should be done in a certain time frame and sometimes in a certain way. As an example disclosure under CPR 31.14 should be in 7 days.

 

If one side (either claimant or defendant) doesn't do what it should the way to make them is to apply to the Court (on an N244 - explaining what's happened) for the Court to issue a Court Order saying that they have to comply.

 

If they ignore that court order you can go back to court (another N244) and and apply for another Court Order - this time the Order is likely to be what is commonly known as an Unless Order - that is unless they comply with the new order their claim (or defence) will be struck out and you win without a trial.

 

If I'm honest this is the best way to successfully defend a CCA claim - get them struck out before trial

 

Hope that helps

[I've got no money]

Thanks for everyones help- I am posting a copy of the application form MBNA sent in a SAR as the "credit agreement " if any body would be so kind to have a look at... it looks micro fiched to me- and I can't spot on the signed front any mention of credit limit,interest rates etc and the the supposed back copy is there anything that would suggest it's part of the same document ?

 

I think that you are right

 

I also can't find where MBNA have signed it...

 

Have you got any statements - just check the intrest rates and charges against the terms and conditions they've sent - you may find that they're totally different to the T & C

[pompeyfaith]

Can you also post up the default notice please removing name and address

 

PF

[citizenB]

It looks like many others that are being disputed with reference to that column on the right hand side of the back page.

[Viscount Stair]

In relation to the small print (in both senses of the word) that appears in the right hand column, has anyone raised before the fact that some of the prescribed terms are qualified by cross-references to paragraphs that do not bear the same numbers or do not appear at all in the summary said to have been on the signature document.

[I've got no money]

Clearly they refer to a different document...

 

I've got one at the moment with MBNA where I am intending to argue that point when seeking an order for specific disclosure.

 

The hearing is on the 5th of May - I'll let you know how it goes

[Viscount Stair]

I'm no forensic expert but one thing that worries me is that the crease line on the back page seems consistent with the box on the right having been there all along and the black wedges on both front and back (which are consistent with part of the document having been shaved by an automatic letter opener) seem to correspond.

 

However, important elements of the prescribed terms are found outside the four corners of the signature document, even if it is an unreconstructed copy.

[bnkrob]

have sent off cpr to Optima - only recorded delivery this morning - know I should have done it special after reading posts tonight- and did my acknowledgment of service on line. ( I intend to defend all of claim )

wait an see if I get anything back - an then start looking at a defence, certainly on the non enforcable CCA lines - any suggestions of any threads to have a look for inspiration ?

cheers BNKROB

[bnkrob]

just recieved a response from Optima re my cpr request- saying that they have contacted MBNA to get required doc's etc- so it does not look they will be sending anything by the 7th day.

[I've got no money]

That's their problem - when the 7 days are up - do the chasing letter giving them a further 7 days and threatening an application to court for an order and costs

[pompeyfaith]

Was the letter headed WITHOUT PREJUIDCE my bet is it was and you will have to chase them as i had same letter 18th July 08 finally got the docs 30th December 08

 

Regards

 

PF