Debts as a result of Fraud

[deargodhelpme]

Recently seperated from spouse and now filing for divorce. At the time of leaving started to get hounded by debt collectors, and got an Experian report that shows Debts in excess of £160k, of which I knew nothing about and are either joint or solely under my name. I'm liaising with Solicitor and CAB advisor and it is really complex.

 

So far mortgage agreement shows forged signature, have requested copies of orginal agreements under CCA and awaiting more information. It seems from what I've received so far that forged settled debts done by spouse were settled by creating additional forged debts.

 

Still gathering evidence, have logged everything with police. But just had the good fortune to stumble across this site.

 

My solicitor originally asked for copies of debt agreements in Jan 09 very little response. I then wrote asking and still no response. CAB advisor advised that I write using CCA section 77-99 and providing nominal £1 for information. Have done this with all debtors and asked not just for copies of orginal agreement, but copies of cheques, payments etc etc. Have noted with thanks in forums that if not provided within 30 days they are in breach of act and logged info of letter to OFT.

 

It seems that the Police position in the matter is that they await for the CC companies to investigate. Yet the CC companies are saying this is a civil case, and wont take action and are still chasing me for payments, adding interest etc etc. Experian have placed correction notices on all accounts I am disputing but this will last only 28 days and it's obvious it will take longer to resolve.

 

Ok so what I wish to know is:

 

1. Why are the CC companies stating this is a civil matter

2. What is the definition of a civil case

3. What can I do to get them to investigate this as fraud.

4. What can I do to protect my capital investment in the marital home now that it is falling behind in payments and the lenders have been advised it is a forged signature on document

 

I appreciate that it may be really difficult to advise me, and that it is very hard for me to state all that is being done at the moment but any info or guidance would help.

 

thanks x

[citizenB]

Not sure I can answer all of your questions, but I will do my best and perhaps others will jump in and help as well.

 

There can be no prison sentence in a Ciivl case

Fraud is a criminal offence and carries a prison sentence.

 

I think what you need to do is Subject Access the company and ask for all information they hold in respect of your accounts. That way you can possibly prove there has been fraud committed and that you had no knowledge.

 

Here is a link for the SAR letter, you can adapt it to ask for specific information, however, they should provide EVERYTHING relating to your accounts.

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/576-subject-access-request-debt-a-dca.html

 

HTH

[slick132]

The police often seem reluctant and slow to involve themselves in such matters. Don't let this put you off insisting that the police investigate these matters fully, and give you a Crime Ref No.

 

The credit card co's are no better - they're happy as long as they have someone to chase. Unfortunately that's YOU at the moment. You have to make it clear you had no prior knowledge or involvement in the frauds.

 

In my opinion, this is not a civil matter. But it is up to you to see that the police and the CC Co's treat this as fraud, and investigate appropriately.

 

I would expect your sol'r to at least advise on how you should deal with this. You can do the work yourself to avoid paying the sol'r to do it for you.

[42man]

I'd agree that you MUST tell the police, using a credit card in somebody else's name IS fraud, and if they don't want to know then you must go straight to the top to the most senior police official, if they still don't want to know then a chat with your local MP would help...

[deargodhelpme]

Thanks CitizenB, Slick132, and 42man. Yes I immediately reported it to the police and provided lenders with police log numbers. This was in Dec 08.

 

I have to pay solicitor so am doing most of work with regard to the debts. CAB have only recently become involved but it seems it's mainly up to me to do work. Basically what's happened is this:

 

I advised all lenders of fraud and gave police log numbers in Dec 08.

Solicitor wrote in Jan 09 to lenders requesting copy signed agreements and any other information they had (dont think CCA was quoted at this time). In March some 3 documents were received from 2 lenders that showed forged signatures (there are about 8 lenders involved).

I wrote again requesting either original copy info or additional info with no response. However on recent CAB advise wrote again (a week ago) requesting info under CCA enclosing £1 postal orders for each request.

So my confusion arises because:

 

1. As they did not provide solicitor with info in Jan 09 (even if he did not quote CCA) is this the date from which I refute the debts?

2. If they provide the info within the current timescale of my last letter, what do I do then? I assume that I present them with the fraud evidence but is there any CCA or other Act I can quote for back up to refute the debt?

3. The Police stated that they only get involved if it is a sum of money involved and not debt.... do I nonetheless present them with the evidence?

4. If I refute the debts and state I am no longer liable for it presumably they will take me to court where I fight my case and present my findings. I don't think I can take them to court as the amounts of money involved are massive, is this correct?

5. One lender Amex has made a final decision stating that the debt is not fraud. But the basis of their investigations are completely inaccurate and based on assumptions that I never provided, such as I must have made my PIN available/accessible which I never did. So have replied stating this, asking for investigation to be reopened and requested copies of statements, PIN requests, copies of payment cheques etc (not only was card used fraudulently, exceeding credit limits, but amounts were occassionally paid off) using CCA. Yet to receive a reply to this, (a week to go) but they have made it part of their complaints procedure and provided info about Financial Ombudsman. So how does the FO fit in with CCA and Police?

6. With my signature being forged will I have to get a handwritting expert in to prove it? (which is more expense) Or can I state that it is forged and leave it up to lenders to prove otherwise?

7. It seems that a lot of fraudulent debts were settled by the creation of other fraudulent debts. At the moment I'm trying to sort out what's what. One of which is a large mortgage, on marital home. I have advised the lender (a week ago) that my signature has been forged. If I refute this debt then do I run the risk of losing the capital I have? (Which I will desperately need to use to pay off solicitor etc as I have very little income).

8. All this came about when I left and it was then I started to get hounded by debt collectors. Prior to that I was in the complete belief that I had no debt. Now it's more than apparent that the post for all the statements, notices, correspondence, final demands etc were kept from me, and that this has been going on for years. Isn't it illegal to keep someone's post from them?

 

I'm worried sick about it all, I have no idea where all this money has gone or what it has been spent on.

 

Anyway thanks for the feedback I've gotten from you all its very much appreciated.

[deargodhelpme]

Oh... I forgot to mention the other thing I don't understand is with my credit rating so poor (which it must have been for some considerable time) how these loans and credit were obtained in my name either solely or in joint names?

[slick132]

I'm hope others will comment but, personally, I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle.

 

I'd treat this in just the same way as if a total stranger had taken my data and opened cards or a/c's with it.

 

Let Amex and the rest of them come to you with proof that YOU are in ANY WAY responsible. On the face of what you've said, you are not. Let them take you to court if they think their evidence is strong enough. I doubt if they'll do it.

 

Good to hear you involved the police already - this will work in your favour in the long term.

 

You may have some liability in the case of any joint account debts which you had before you separated.

[deargodhelpme]

Thanks Slick132 I will take that approach. I have looked at the link provided by CitizenB regarding the SAR and will check if the authority my solicitor sent in Jan 09 can be regarded as such. If so then they have surpassed the 40 day request regarding the Data Protection Act.

 

In connection with the CCA I believe that it's 14 days? Does it have to be enforced by quoting the CCA? Or can past repeated requests of correspondence by used where CCA wasn't quoted?

 

As for the joint accounts/loan, interestingly CAB quoted a section from CCA where if before April 2007 your signature isn't on the loan then you are not liable for it as it is unenforceable. But I believe this has yet to be tested in Court.... It seems that some loans fall within this category. But until I can get info there is no way for me to know.

 

One of the lenders where my joint account was, has a joint payment section where statements show payments in and out in a general format. Attached to this are accounts that have two parts to it, (one to me and other to spouse) where I cant check my spouse's activity as to whom these payments were made, and where funds came from. So feel that there is a possibility here of my challenging this debt.

 

 

Thank you for all your feedback, I feel this site is a godsend at a time when I was losing hope of ever seeing the light.

[slick132]

Like I said, I hope others will comment, but I would not send CCA requests or any SAR in your particular case.

 

This could be seen as acknowledgement by you that you are connected to accounts which have been opened fraudulently in your name.

 

Let the creditors come to you with proof that you have signed an application, whether it's in sole or joint names.

 

I think it's fine that the sol'r wrote wrote to the creditors initially, to see what they can show was signed and by whom.

 

But a SAR is your request to see what info they have about you and I think the creditors may see this as you acknowledging responsibility.

 

Ultimately, you should be guided by your sol'r if they're advising you on this.

[deargodhelpme]

Slick132 it's too late - requests using CCA have already been sent. I do feel it's like I'm in a legal minefield at the mo, especially since not qualifying for legal aid.

 

But the CCA requests have been sent on the basis that there has been fraud and evidence for this is required. This was done on advise from CAB. To be fair to solicitor and CAB it's an almighty mess.

 

I think approach is that companies are regarding it as civil, and as they are taking this stance then they need to provide evidence as I am contesting this. I believe that if they don't provide me evidence and yet regard debt as mine this leaves me in untenable position legally.

 

Presumably at this point I can refute debts...... which will leave them in position of having to prove they are mine.

 

Also have been giving this much thought and think that they may be unable to provide me with evidence that are on accounts that are 'apparently' mine in their view, as if I am able to prove that they are not mine wouldn't this put them in breach of data protection act? This thought has come about regarding my request for sources of payment regarding settled fraud debt by using other fraud debt.

 

I do appreciate your feedback and welcome anyone else who would like input.

 

I am stunned and shocked by it all

[slick132]

If the requests have been made, so be it - I doubt it will harm your position.

 

I agree that the onus of proof should be left to the creditors, to prove that you had any involvement in obtaining the new loans. If they want to pursue you for any debt, they should do so through the court and hopefully end up looking stupid.

 

The Data Protection issue is complicated, as is the settling of legitimate debt by funds obatained fraudulently.

 

See what comes back from the creditors.

[deargodhelpme]

Thanks slick132, this has really helped me get my head around it all.

 

Now it's just the awful tension of waiting........

[deargodhelpme]

Just an update - Amex are claiming that I made available my chip and pin which is not true. As a result the fraud was not made against them.

 

Also if anyone can help - sent letter 7th April under CCA requesting info. Received response saying this info on the way, this prompted me to send another letter on 18th requesting further information. Have now received a final reply which is ignoring my letter of 18th April. Questions:

 

1. Does the final reply mean that I take the time limit for their response under CCA from 7th April.

 

2. Final response means that I can now take matter to ombudsman. Do I add in my letter that I refute the debt and won't be making any payments?

 

3. The information asked for on 7th april was originally asked for on 22 Jan by my solicitor (but didn't quote CCA). Deadline for 7th April ends any day now. So is it reasonable to write now rather than wait for the 18th April to run its time out?

 

Any advise welcome......

[slick132]

Their Final Response means they don't want to, or will not, discuss the matter with you further.

 

It is therefore now your prerogative to take your complaint to the Omudsman. Do so immediately, as this will keep the matter "in dispute" and you can then tell them to bog off if they want pay'ts. Keep your complaint to the FOS brief and to-the-point.

 

Write back to Amex and say:-

 

1. Your stance about the PIN No is wrong and you are clearly missing the point, presumably deliberately.

 

2. The amounts concerned are still in dispute and you should withhold collection.

 

3. In view of your stance, a formal complaint has been lodged with the FOS who will no doubt be in touch with you shortly.

 

4. I await your proper responce to my CCA request dated xxdate.

Edited April 27, 2009 by slick132
grammar

[deargodhelpme]

Thanks Slick132.... will do so immediately. Do I quote that they are in breach of the CCA (final date is today) and in breach of Data Protection act too?

 

Also wrote on 18th april (in response to their final reply regarding their fraud investigation) already stating position regarding pin and how their investigations were completely based on assumptions and inaccuracies that they did not obtain from me. Will re-iterate this again.

 

What also troubles me is that they have twice returned my postal order requesting info under CCA saying they are doing this as goodwill gesture. Yet by doing so they are ignoring my rights and using it to selectively respond to certain aspects. (I have received two final replies one from Fraud Dept, and other from Customer Relations dated 23 which is ignoring my letter of 18th.)

 

To add insult to injury, they ignored my solicitor's request for info on 22nd Jan, and advised me to take legal advise in their letter of 23rd! Every letter I have sent them has been cc to both solicitor and CAB!

 

Their lack of providing the info I have requested means that I cant proceed with what they regard as a civil case also I can't register with Royal Mail and Police that my post has been tampered with as I have to quote which docs.

 

They have placed me in impossible situation where they are holding me liable for a debt which I know without doubt is fraud; yet refuse to provide me with the info in which to prove it. Is this what is known as an 'unfair relationship' under CCA?

 

Thanks for replying...... I really appreciate it.

[deargodhelpme]

The other thing I wished to ask is do I also report this to the Office of Fair Trading as well as the Financial Ombudsman?

[slick132]

Hi DG,

 

Is there still an outstanding CCA request with them, or have they responded saying they are returning your money as a GOGW.

 

If a CCA request is still o/s, just mention this as in point #4 above.

 

If they've already replied to your latest CCA request by returning the cheque, re-send it with the cheque by Recorded Delivery using the normal letter but add these paragraphs.

 

Because you have already refused to respond properly to my CCA requests made on xx and xx dates, I must remind you that you are legally obliged to respond in accordance with the CCA1974. I must also remind you that you even failed to respond to the CCA request made by my solicitor.

It is not your prerogative to refuse my request, whether you accept my payment or not.

In the circumstances, if you fail to respond with the necessary credit agreement, I shall assume that you have no such document; or that you accept it was made by another person using my name and you will not hold me responsible for the account.

Hold off your complaint until they reply, or fail to reply, to the CCA.

 

I don't see that you've yet made a SAR to them, so you have no Data Protection issue to complain about. However, in the circumstances, |I think you should now send them a SAR as it could reveal useful info.

 

It should also produce the credit agreement, but I doubt it will. See here and enclosew a fee of £10 - http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/48-bank-templates/110--data-protection-act-1998-subject-access-request-.html

 

If they still fail to respond properly, we can review the situation before deciding on your next move. I think they are digging themselves a hole by evading their obligations, and refusing to acknowledge your assertions of fraud.

 

Stay focused and remember, if they hold you responsible and try to take you to court, they have to pursuade a judge they have done everything properly. Clearly, they have not and this will be obvious to a judge.

[deargodhelpme]

Hi Slick thanks for all the feedback and effort you are going to......

 

I think the difficulty is that they have ignored all CCA requests including a letter from my solicitor on 22nd Jan, which enclosed an authority from me to provide this information.

 

They have returned the postal orders with their final responses which, as you say, means that they will not discuss the matter further; and that I am now placed in a position of taking the matter up with the Financial Ombudsman.

 

According to the CCA they have committed a criminal offence if they have not provided this information within a month. Though it's true my solicitor did not enclose a payment with the original request I have now waited the statutory time (12 working days) and it's been over 3 months since the original request.

 

Their investigations have been biased and I responded to that point by point. I feel that the Data protection Act only applies because there is a section in there relating to provision of info if crime is suspected i.e. the Data Controller can decide to provide the info if a crime is suspected without receiving a the £10 payment.

 

At the moment they have placed me in an impossible situation; they claim it's civil matter but 3+ months on I am still waiting for the info. Without this info I cant persue a civil matter. Therefore I am in an impossible situation, and it would be that they are creating an unfair relationship as stated under the CCA.

 

In their last two letters they have promised some of the information, but still have not provided it.... so how long must I wait? (Rhetorical question). After all whilst I have been waiting they have been adding more penalties, interest etc to the debt.

 

Also I don't feel it appropriate that they hold me liable for it and feel that under the current circumstances I have no choice but to refuse liability as to accept it would either undermine my civil case, or place me in a position where I am accepting fraud.

 

You're right about my staying focused and this is helping......... I think your original advise is the best course and this is what I will write in the letter to them.

 

1. Explain the impossible situation they have placed me in and that this has created an unfair relationship

2. Their failure to provide the information requested (they have provided some i.e. copy signed agreement which isn't being disputed) such as statements in order to provide me with the means to persue a civil case

3. To question their regarding this fraud as civil particularly if the statements were to show:

 

a. The Amex was used to either pay off other fraudulent debts or

b. That their card (one of the cards has been settled) was settled using a fraudulent debt

 

Something which I am at the moment unable to to do as don't have info

 

4. State that they appear to have made a criminal offence under the CCA (I believe becomes criminal if it is longer than a month and I've waited more than 3) and despite recent promises they still have not provided it

 

5. Their Fraud investigation was based on assumptions, inaccurate information, etc, and I received a final response without being afforded the opportunity of responding as a complaint. Nor was I ever involved in the investigation to verify the info etc despite my repeated calls. Will also register my deep concern that the fraud was aimed at disproving my claim rather than providing me with the means to substantiate.

 

6. In relation to the 2nd final response from customer services they have blatantly refused to discuss the matter, or provide me with the means to progress my claim further. (This being mentioned because FO states that I must make every effort with company which I have) That they have used their GOGW to ignore my rights and give themselves licence as to what they choose to respond to. As you stated:

 

Because you have already refused to respond properly to my CCA requests made on xx and xx dates, I must remind you that you are legally obliged to respond in accordance with the CCA1974. I must also remind you that you even failed to respond to the CCA request made by my solicitor.

 

It is not your prerogative to refuse my request, whether you accept my payment or not.

 

In the circumstances, if you fail to respond with the necessary credit agreement, I shall assume that you have no such document; or that you accept it was made by another person using my name and you will not hold me responsible for the account.

 

 

 

In view of the above I will advise Amex that I will register complaint with FO and until then I expect

 

1. To freeze debt until matter resolved

2. Because of impossible circumstances they have placed me, they have left me no alternative but to refute the debt and liaibilty. They have left me no choice but to advise them that I will not be making any further payments.

3. I expect all the information requested to be provided.

 

I just feel that are taking the proverbial p*** and have had enough. Dear God help me........

[deargodhelpme]

Sorry forgot to mention that 12 working day time limit on CCA request ran out today. There is another dated 18th April which asks for more information regarding their final response of fraud investigations, but their final response of 23rd April from customer services ignores it.

 

As far as I'm concerned they can't hold me liable for the debt if they fail to provide me with info to persue civil case.

 

They cant expect me to be liable and persue a civil case. As by doing so it could be construed that I am party to the fraud.

 

Also dont feel they can regard matter as civil if their services were used in fraud.

 

Sorry having a bit of a rant but it's helping me get focused...... there is enough there to bring it to the attention of Financial Ombudsman and get debt regarded as fraud, or at very least their future co-operation in my being able to prove it. (Hope I'm right.....)

[deargodhelpme]

This is the letter that Amex will receive.......

 

It is with dismay that I read your final response letter of 23rd April 2009, as it appears you may have committed a criminal offence under the Consumer Credit Act and may also be in breach of the Data Protection Act.

 

My reasons are as follows:

 

1. You have failed to provide the information requested. This was first asked for on 22nd January 2009 by my solicitors *****, and again by me in my letter 7th April 2009. Despite assurances from you I have now waited more than 3 months for this information. You have failed to supply it within the statutory time allowed by the Acts.

 

2. You have created an unfair relationship. You have refused to acknowledge this as fraud, advising that I pursue it as a civil case and expect me to accept liability for the debt. Yet you deny me the right to pursue this as a civil matter by not providing me with the information I and my solicitor have requested. In addition, you expect me to accept liability when I know, and have advised you, that this is fraud. Your expectation would place me in a position where I am accepting the fraud, which could be construed as being party to it; undermining any civil case action. This I cannot do.

 

3. You have explained this is a civil case as the crime was not perpetrated against you. Yet you refuse to investigate the possibility that my Amex cards were either used to settle other fraudulent debts or actually be settled by a fraudulent debt. In addition you have denied my request to validate which transactions are legitimate and which relate to fraud. I have clearly stated at all times that there was no debt outstanding, and that this is fraud, providing you with a police log number. Yet despite both my and my solicitors requests you have determinedly avoided such co-operation. Had the crime been perpetrated against you, I have no doubt, you would have expected and demanded my full and immediate co-operation.

 

4. By returning my postal order payments as a gesture of goodwill, you seem to have used this as a licence to deny my rights under the Consumer Credit Act, as well as to be extremely selective as to what information you have responded to or used to argue your case. I refer to my letter of 18th April which addresses point by point the findings of your fraud investigation, that are based on assumption and inaccurate information. By ignoring this letter you have refused my requests to:

 

a. re-evaluate your final response for this fraud to remain on my account

b. re-open the fraud investigation, and include also the settled card

c. allow me to co-ordinate my findings with you

 

This lack of acknowledgement or co-operation from you has placed me in an impossible and untenable situation.

 

5. In addition, the information you have used in your fraud investigation which was based on assumption and inaccurate information, was neither supplied nor verified by me. By using your final responses to ignore all letters including the one of 18th April, you have denied me any recourse to try and resolve these issues with you. Appearing to have taken a determined stance of stating that whatever the circumstances you consider me liable for a debt that is fraud. You have used a time period for your investigation that was not provided by me, despite my having advised you that this fraud appears to have been happening over a considerable period of time and possibly involving other companies; and that I have requested copy statements for the last 6 years.

 

6. Your actions have been at the least obstructive, appearing to do your utmost to directing your activities to focus on disproving my claim, whilst at the same time denying me any opportunity to prove it. Consequently you have not allowed any fair conclusion. As in connection with items 2 and 3 above, you have forced me into a position where the only choice you will accept is my liability for a debt that is fraud. I have done my best to liaise with you, and yet I have been forced to deal with many American Express Departments, often being kept on the phone for long period of times, being transferred from person to person. This is clearly explained in my letter of 18th April, which you have ignored.

 

In view of your two final response letters, and the above serious circumstances I am formally writing to advise that your actions have left me no alternative or choice, but to refuse to accept liability for this fraud, or to make any payments.

 

I formally request that you remove this fraud from my account, or you will leave me no choice but to report the matter to the Financial Ombudsman.

 

Yours faithfully,

[slick132]

Hi DGHM,

 

I think your letter is excellent.

 

I would finish by saying:-

 

Until the FOS have completed their investigations, you must ensure that all collection activity is suspended in accordance with the OFT Debt Collection Guidelines.

Send it to Amex by Rec'd Del'y.

 

Send the FOS a brief summary of events in the form of a schedule giving the date and itemising each event briefly.

 

Head the letter Formal Complaint and ask them to investigate Amex's total lack of interest in your version of events, resulting in their allegation of neglect or collusion on your part.

 

Enclose copies of all relevant letters.

[deargodhelpme]

Ooops didnt realise there was a 2nd page and your reply was here!

 

Too late to add that sentence to Amex letter as sent it off this pm......

 

Will do with FOS - do I need to:

 

a. refer to the sections of each Act where that I think they have breached

b. I haven't kept times and dates of telephone conversations - will this be a problem?

c. Do I need to give amex time to take this fraud debt off my account before I write to FOS? and if so how much?

d. If I do allow them time to do this, (and they dont) then do I inform Amex that its going to FOS or not bother and just register it with FOS?

 

As I ended letter asking them to remove this fraud and if not then would raise matter with FOS.

 

Presumably if they start to hound me with collection activity then I raise this with FOS?

 

[slick132]

Hi DGHM,

 

a. No, you're a lay person and don't need to quote this.

 

b. It would help if you can make notes of any tel cons you can recall. Type them up and save them. Also, get a book and make notes of all tel cons from now on including time, date and brief content.

 

c. I would complain to FOS now. They may come back and say they'll only investigate when you have Amex's "final response". But no harm in setting this in motion asap.

 

d. Approach FOS now anyway, as I'm sure it'll end up with them sooner or later.

 

If Amex continue to hound you, you can make this known to FOS.

 

Re the para that I suggested, wait for the next time you write to Amex and add it on then.

[deargodhelpme]

Thanks Slick..... taking your advice will keep you posted