Sherforce charges

[Trader Jim]

Ok, I've started my own thread for this.

 

Original post:

 

I just had a visit from Sherforce, business has been bad and I couldn't pay a ccj.

Original cost incl. interest 3093.17

Judgement cost £210

interest £18

cost of execution 101.75

charges of authorised High court enforcement officer £869.57!

total £4292.49

 

No previous letter

Managed to give him 2 post dated cheques to give me some time to think.

Spoke to someone who said he would email me abreakdown of costs.

Any help would be appreciated

[Trader Jim]

This was originally accj that became a high court writ because I couldn't pay.

It is under my Ltd company name

 

I have just recieved abreakdown of costs.

Roughly as follows

 

Percentage of amount recovered £88.44 Regs part A Fee 1

 

Valuation Fee £177.08 Regs Part A Fee6(2)(b)

 

These make sense under the regs but they never actually did a valuation as we never let them in.

Then

Any other fees for a duty otherwise not provided for under regs Part C Fee12

 

Initial attendence fee £150

Financial management fee £135

Admin Fee ££150

debtor services Admin fee £50

Subtotal £760.27

Vat £114.04

Total £874.31

 

Slightly different from the original amount

The regulations state

 

12. Miscellaneous For any matter not otherwise provided for, such sum as a Master, district judge or costs judge may allow upon application.

 

Does this mean they need proof that the judge in this case has has allowed these fees and they should have proof, or that they can only charge these if they apply after the judgement.

 

Any help would be appreciated

[Trader Jim]

The other thing is that all of the goods owned by my company are neccessary for work and therefore should be exempt under section 99.

So can they charge fees on them?

[Guest Happy Contrails]

The bailiff is looking to seriously rip you off with his fees and it's pointless asking a bailiff for a brweakdown of costs. The law already prescribes bailiffs fees for collecting unpaid county court judgements by way of the County Court Fees Order (Amended 1994) 1982 and provides a flat rate of £45.00 for debts more than £125. It makes no difference what kind of bailiff collects the debt.

 

Interest is only payable if the court has ordered it as per Section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984.

 

I think the bailiff is trying to charge his fees according to the High Court Enforcement Officers Regulations 2004, but that only applies to collecting unpaid High Court Writs and your debt is a County Court Judgment.

 

A bailiff cheating you with his fees in this way commits an offence under Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 because it is classed as Fraud by False Representation. You have a right to make a complaint to police who should investigate. Make lots of copies of the bailiffs document showing those fees, its very crucial evidence and conclusively proves the bailiff is a fraudster and a cheat.

 

If the goods belong to a Ltd company, your employer or form the basic tools of your trade to enable you to carry on your normal course of work, then they are exempt from levy.

[Trader Jim]

It was a ccj but then it apparently went to the High court , but we never recieved anything to say that was the case.

The bailiffs letter say it is being made under a writ of execution by the High court.

I take it they should have tried to collect on the ccj first and then apply to the High court if that couldn't be collected.

We also never signed anything or let the HCEO into our property.

[Guest Happy Contrails]

CCJ's more than £600 can be transferred up to the High Court for enforcement, but it doesn't change the type of debt, its still a CCJ. The creditor has been sold an expensive transfer up service by the bailiffs under a deluded belief an HCEO has greater statutory powers for collecting debts. The reality is they are the same as a common debt collector but with a fancy name. They dont have any fancy powers.

 

If your debt was transferred up then you are not liable for the costs because the creditor unilaterally opted to transfer up, and any fees thereto are the responsibility of the creditor. The Unsolicited Goods & Services Act 1971 enables you to decline payment of services not ordered by a court or legislated. The creditor could have enforced the debt in the county court.

[Trader Jim]

So I have basically paid them £2100 already and I am going to cancel my cheque for the rest. Then i will send them acheque for what i believe should be the outstanding, but first I need to get that correct, If anyone can help me do this i would be grateful.

I take it i pay all of the original CCj costs and then £45, the rest I can ignore.

Obviously the HCEO will still come after the amount they feel is outstanding, do i just tell them to go jump?

[Guest Happy Contrails]

The court has only ordered you to pay the creditor the CCJ amount and you need to look at the document to see what charges you have been ordered to pay. There is no law requiring you to do business with a bailiff, and certainly not one that is a cheat and a fraudster.

 

If the CCJ is wrong and you dont owe this money then file an N244 (fee applies) and get the judgment set aside.

 

Strangely enough, there is no law requiring you to pay any fees on a CCJ and that is why the creditor will have already paid them up front, the bailiff is only trying his luck and seeing how much he can screw you for. Its commonplace with uncertificated bailiffs, they can only make a livable income by cheating with their fees and rely on public ignorance of the law.

[Trader Jim]

I found this as well that seems to contradict their charges, If I pay the charges, it seems to say that I am not responsible for any other costs as well

 

PART 4

MISCELLANEOUS

Fees

13. - (1) Schedule 3 to these Regulations sets out the fees that may be charged by enforcement officers.

 

(2) Where the execution of a writ of fieri facias is completed by sale, fees 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 (1) and 7 under Schedule 3 may be levied by deducting them from the proceeds of sale.

 

(3) Where a writ is withdrawn or satisfied or its execution is stopped, the fees set out under Schedule 3 must be paid by -

 

 

(a) the person upon whose application the writ was issued; or
 
(b) the person at whose instance the execution is stopped,
 

as the case may be.

 

(4) An enforcement officer or a party liable to pay any fees under Schedule 3 may apply to a costs judge or a district judge of the High Court for an assessment of the amount payable, by the detailed assessment procedure in accordance with the Civil Procedure Rules 1998[8]

[Trader Jim]

This is the letter that i am writing to Sherfarce about my charges, if anyone can look over it and give their opinion before I send it off would be much appreciated.

My biggest dilema is exactly what i do owe and should send them, i take it the judgement debt, judgement costs £210, execution costs- as provided under the writ101.75, interest at 8%pa £18 and Vat are all legal

 

 

 

 

 

21st April 2009

 

Your Reference :********

 

To whom it may concern,

 

I am writing to you regarding a visit from your High Court enforcement officer and the amount of money your company is trying to charge me.

On the 6th April your officer Mr. ********** called at our premises to collect money on your behalf. He brought with him a printout of a letter from your company and another letter claiming to be a High Court form No.55 – Notice of seizure.

I was not in at the time and he spoke to my partner telling her that the money was owed and would she let him in, to which she said “No”. Instead she agreed to give him two cheques as it was not possible to pay the full amount immediately, the first for £2100 which has been cashed and the other post dated for the remaining amount of £2192.49.

Now I have no problem with the amount owed for the original debt and any judgement costs, what I do have a problem with is the costs that your company has tried to charge and the way that they try to do it.

First, your officer and you claim to have a walking possession, this is simply not true, a walking possession according to your letter has to be signed, secondly the goods that he apparently seized are necessary to our work and therefore exempt under Section 99, Schedule 7, para 2 of the courts act 2003 as set out in your own letter.

I called your office to ask about how you had come to the amounts specified and was told a breakdown would be emailed to me, this never arrived so I called again to ask for one to be posted. This arrived on the 18th April and surprise, surprise the amounts are not the same as you were originally asking for.

Having gone through the costs it seems that many of the amounts you are trying to claim seem wrong.

You are claiming costs for a walking possession that never happened, a valuation fee on goods your officer never saw and a percentage of the amount recovered all under the High Court enforcement Officers Regulations 2004, Schedule 3.

The rest of your costs come under miscellaneous HCEO Regulations Part C Fee 12 total £485 and obviously come straight off the top of your head. The fact that you can’t even match your figures proves this.

The charge for the recovery of a CCJ under the County Court Fees Order (Amended 1994) is £65.00.

It seems to me that what your company is trying to do is obtain money by deception otherwise known as Fraud!

I have cancelled my second cheque with you and included anew one for the money it seems should be owed, I have spoken to my solicitor in this matter and I am sending a letter of complaint about your Officer your company and its Directors to the OFT, the Courts and the Solictors Regulation Authority being that is what two of your directors, Mrs Sandbrook and Mr Smith claim to be.

If this situation is not dealt with immediately I will also be putting in a complaint to the Police under Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006.

I am taking this situation extremely seriously and have included a Subject Access Request Letter for a full breakdown of costs and any other information held pertaining to this case with a £10 cheque for doing so.

I look forward to hearing from you very soon.

 

Sincerely

************

[wonkeydonkey]

Data Protection Act 1998

Subject Access Request

 

Dear Sir

 

 

.

Please supply a complete list of the data held and used by you that relate to me *****. This information is to include any data which make reference to any premises from which I trade as listed in the Document Of Details attached to this letter. It is also to include third party information held with all other agencies

 

Additionally where there has been an event in the account history during the period accounts have been placed with you that have required any manual intervention by any member of your staff or any other person I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have been caused or resulted from that manual intervention.

 

I would like to bring to your attention data can be held in written information, e-mails, electronic documents, photographs, CCTV images, telephone conversations and include any recorded or written opinions about me and any recorded or written intentions and action taken regarding me.

 

I would like this information to be sent to my home address as listed in the Document of Details attached to this letter. You have 40 days in which to comply.

 

To satisfy payment to supply this information I enclose a fee of £10

[wonkeydonkey]

This is a copy of the SAR letter I sent

[Trader Jim]

Can anyone help me with whether all of the judgement and Execution costs are right?

[brownefamily]

The cost of execution is certainly correct (£101.75) that's the cost of transferring it up to the High Court which is all perfectly OK.

I think the judgement cost of £210 was probably added by the court when the CCJ was done, so that's correct too

You are dealing with a High Court Enforcement Officer (not the same thing as a bailiff) and you need to be careful as, with a business, they can enter property and seize goods.

You are right to make a complaint and question their charges under Schedule C (and the valuation fee since they did not see the items)

You must send a complaint to Chris Badger at Sherforce, by recorded delivery, saying you are questioning your fees and ask him to hold off on further action until your complaint is settled.

Sherforce are members of the High Court Enforcement Officers Association (www.hceoa.org.uk) and you can also send them a copy of your letter and ask them if they can ask Sherforce to hold off until this matter is settled.

Put everything in writing, sending by recorded delivery.

I can't see any sign of them charging you a Walking Possession Fee etc, although you refer to it in your letter. They can't charge this as you haven't signed anything.

[brownefamily]

the VAT and 8% interest are allowed to be charged (although the question will be 8% of what and VAT on what as the overall figure is disputed)

[Trader Jim]

The saga continues....

This morning the HCEO turned up again I answered the door saying "Hi, i take it you are the bailiff?" to which he answered "No, I am much more serious than that!" and tried to push his way onto my premises and I had to physically push him back out.

Once outside he gave me anew amount to pay that he couldn't explain with roughly another £1000 in charges. I told him that I had sent a letter, SAR and cheque for what I feel is the correct amount. He said that it meant nothing and that he was going to come into my premises and sieze goods.

I told him that they were exempt under sect99 and he said goods are only exempt up to a value of £150 and as a LTD company not exempt at all.

I then asked if i could talk to someone in their office in Braintree rather than a call centre in India, to which he called me a racist and that I was talking about his friends. I can assure you I am no racist and only said this to make the point I wanted to speak to someone at head office.

I spoke to the call centre who said they couldn't help and the HCEO said he couldn't do anything I needed to call the call centre.

 

Any way i thought I would just call his bluff and eventually he went away, saying he would be back.

 

I also called the police to see if I could enter charges of fraud against them, but they said it was a civil matter and they could not do anything or fill in acrime report. Anyone know more about this.

 

Anyway, we'll see what happens next.

 

Good news, I just had partial success with equita on an old parking ticket.

[Guest Happy Contrails]

I also called the police to see if I could enter charges of fraud against them, but they said it was a civil matter and they could not do anything or fill in acrime report. Anyone know more about this.

 

Committing offences under the Fraud Act 2006 has never been a civil matter. Get the name of the police officer who has made the civil matter comment.

 

To be technical the police officer himself has committed an offence under Section 4 of the Criminal Law Act 1967 by saying that a crime is a civil matter. At a minimum he has made factual error in his interpretation of the law and you have a right to escalate your complaint to the IPCC. You should contact your MP and ask for an investigation how a police officer came to make a serious factual error in his interpretation of the law and failing to investigate a crime when it was reported to him.

[Trader Jim]

Went to the Police station and again was told it was a civil matter and I quote "why was I wasting their time with this."

I'll wait for Sherfarce to get back to my SAR and see what happens next, then maybe use my Solicitor if they want to carry on.

Should I contact the court and the company I owed the debt to with proof that I have paid the debt to the HCEO?

[Trader Jim]

The other thing I forgot to mention was that the letter the HCEO gave me this time had the printed amount which looks like £2277 or something scribbled out and the HCEO had written £3169.28 next to it.

Surely he cannot claim anything i he has crossed out a figure asked for by his company and added to by himself (not that i believe to owe them anything anyway)

[tomtubby]

Went to the Police station and again was told it was a civil matter and I quote "why was I wasting their time with this."

I'll wait for Sherfarce to get back to my SAR and see what happens next, then maybe use my Solicitor if they want to carry on.

Should I contact the court and the company I owed the debt to with proof that I have paid the debt to the HCEO?

 

 

 

I would suggest also asking Chris Badger for a copy of the Field Officers Report !!!

[Trader Jim]

Something that has confused me and I hope one of you can enlighten me?

On the AHCEO website it lists all of the HCEOs of which are the 4 from Sherforce, but the guy that visited me is not one of these and not registered himself. So I take it he is not an HCEO only working for them.

So what rights does he have, should he be registered in any way?

As far as i can see, I was never visited by an actual High Court enforcement officer

[ashmk]

Hi jim,

 

I was just posting a link for someone else and I thought of your post so ill link it here for you to read in case its of some use.

 

http://www.advicenow.org.uk/advicenow-guides/consumer-and-money-problems/dealing-with-bailiffs/what-bailiffs-can-charge-html,621,FP.html

[felicity2009]

Something that has confused me and I hope one of you can enlighten me?

On the AHCEO website it lists all of the HCEOs of which are the 4 from Sherforce, but the guy that visited me is not one of these and not registered himself. So I take it he is not an HCEO only working for them.

So what rights does he have, should he be registered in any way?

As far as i can see, I was never visited by an actual High Court enforcement officer

 

 

My friend had the same thing with SheerFarce. I even showed her photos of suspects taken straight off the website. It was none of them, and the name on some paperwork is not listed on the AHCEO website either.

[brownefamily]

HCEOs are actually allowed to delegate their work to anyone and those people have the powers of an HCEO.

You will rarely find an HCEO does the job themselves and certainly not Sherforce's. You may receive a letter from Sherforce, saying something like "A High Court Enforcement Officer visited today" but you will find it signed by "Fred Boggs, Enforcement Officer". I think this is misleading and the Ministry of Justice and Chris Badger at Sherforce agree. Chris Badger has told me he is going to get this changed.

Chris Badger (who is actually a 5th HCEO at Sherforce but deals with complaints rather than going around door to door, collecting debts) said he would arrange for letters to be changed to something like "You were visited by an agent of a High Court Enforcement Officer..".

So

1) You will probably never find the person who visited you on the list of HCEOs but they are allowed to act for HCEOs. They must never say they ARE an HCEO of course but they do have the same powers

2) If you ever have a problem with Sherforce, please contact Chris Badger (at Sherforce) through 0845 890 9210 as he will deal with your complaint

[wonkeydonkey]

HCEOs are actually allowed to delegate their work to anyone and those people have the powers of an HCEO.

You will rarely find an HCEO does the job themselves and certainly not Sherforce's. You may receive a letter from Sherforce, saying something like "A High Court Enforcement Officer visited today" but you will find it signed by "Fred Boggs, Enforcement Officer". I think this is misleading and the Ministry of Justice and Chris Badger at Sherforce agree. Chris Badger has told me he is going to get this changed.

Chris Badger (who is actually a 5th HCEO at Sherforce but deals with complaints rather than going around door to door, collecting debts) said he would arrange for letters to be changed to something like "You were visited by an agent of a High Court Enforcement Officer..".

So

1) You will probably never find the person who visited you on the list of HCEOs but they are allowed to act for HCEOs. They must never say they ARE an HCEO of course but they do have the same powers

2) If you ever have a problem with Sherforce, please contact Chris Badger (at Sherforce) through 0845 890 9210 as he will deal with your complaint

I dont think writing to Chris Badger will result in any satisfaction. I took this line and so did my wife, neither of us have had an actual reply merely a promise of a reply despite several reminders. Looks very much as if their "Complaints Procedure" is on a points system and you have to wait until you have accumulated enough points(every letter = 1point) to qualify for the courtesy of a reply.