HELP! Issues with Jacobs Bailiffs Re council Tax.

[YorkshireGirl]

Hi there,

 

I'm in need of some help and advice about my situation. I owe unpaid council tax from a house I lived in from 2003 - 2005. Last year Jacobs Bailiffs knocked on my door and said they had come to collect payment for the debt. This was news to me - I was a full time student in this time. However after about 6 months in Jan 2009 I received confirmation from the council and was satified that the amount charged was actually relevant.

 

On getting the confirmation from the council I called Jacobs and arranged to pay in installments. I paid installments in Jan and Feb but in March I didn't get any work as anticipated so was unable to pay. I called Jacobs to inform them of the situation and said I would pay as soon as I got more work. In early April my situation still hadn't improved so I called them and said that I would pay them in full (approx £250) when my student loan arrives on 20th April.

 

Today a bailiff called and left a notice of removal at my house. I called the bailiff and he said to contact the office. I then called the office who said there was nothing that they could do and to contact the bailiff. So I phoned the bailiff again and he told me he would call back. This happened at about 4pm. He still hasn't called back.

 

In January the outstanding money was approx £250 now it has suddenly jumped up to £378.25 with no explanation. I was prepared to pay the £250 on Monday but I'm a student and I cannot afford to pay £378.25.

 

I read something about charges being limited - is this true?

 

Also I'm still a student and I live in a shared house. I don't really have anything of value except my computer which I need for uni work. Can they come into my house and take things belonging to my housemates?

 

Sorry this is so long but I'm stressing about this.

 

Thanks for reading.

[Guest Happy Contrails]

The law prescribing bailiffs fees for unpaid council tax is Regulation 14(2) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 and prescribes £24.50 for a first visit. If he is trying to charge £100+ you mention in your post then he commits an offence under Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 and you have a right to make a complaint to police for committing fraud by false representation. Show the police the bailiff's document proving he is trying to defraud you with his fees.

 

You also have a right to make an official complaint against the bailiff addressed to the court that issued his certificate. Phone the Ministry of Justice Public Register of Bailiffs on 020 3334 6355 and ask which court issued his certificate, then download the complaint form http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/form4_0606.pdf and send the form to the certificating court enclosing supporting evidence such as the bailiffs document showing his fees.

 

You can approach the council and offer to pay it direct and bypass the bailiff altogether. Make it known their bailiff is a fraudster and a cheat and have a copy of the bailiff document handy.

 

If you have moved and did not receive the liability order or a summons to appear before the magistrates court then the liability order is not valid because it is not complaint with Section 33 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 so you do not need to pay bailiffs fees at all. It is also in breach of Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978. Speak to the Local Government Ombudsman and he'll sort that out for you.

[YorkshireGirl]

Thank you so much! I haven't lived in that house since 2005 September and the council were kept informed of the address that I moved to which is my mothers so nothing has ever been sent there.

 

Thats interesting about not being served with a liability order I never received any correspondence. I've just looked at the emails I have from the council and I have this as a breakdown: in italics.

 

 

I can confirm that a student exemption was applied to the above

liability for the period 11 August 2003 until 1 July 2005. The

outstanding balance as detailed above is for the period 2 July 2005

until 8 October 2005.

 

A final bill was issued for £160.95 on the 7 November 2005. As no

payments were made a reminder and summons was issued in accordance with

council tax legislation. This resulted in a liability order being

granted through the Magistrates Courts on 6 June 2006. The costs

incurred are as follows:

 

Summons £62.50

Liability Order £10.00

1st Bailiff Visit £22.50

2nd Bailiff Visit £16.50

Tracing Costs £50.00

Does the fact I was never informed about the court process mean that I only have to pay the cost of the final bill? I have already paid Jacobs £110 can I just pay the remainder of the abount approx £50 to the council? If I do this shall I just pay the counil the fees on their website and then write them a letter explaining my actions? I will also speak to the ombudsman as suggested.

 

 

The first bailiff visted last year so this will be the sencond visit by the firm but the first by this bailiff. So just to confirm he has acted fraudulently by charging me £120 to visit?

 

I will make the relevant complaints tomorrow, cheers for the links!

[Guest Happy Contrails]

Does the fact I was never informed about the court process mean that I only have to pay the cost of the final bill?

 

Only the council tax for the time you lived at the address, nothing else.

 

I have already paid Jacobs £110 can I just pay the remainder of the abount approx £50 to the council?

 

Yes. And if you paid the bailiff with a credit card then you can do a chargeback under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 because the bailiff (the merchant) made a false statement to obtain a credit transfer. Contact your bank and ask for a chargeback form. If you paid by Debit card then speak to your bank and ask the transaction is revoked because it was made under false pretences.

 

If I do this shall I just pay the counil the fees on their website and then write them a letter explaining my actions?

 

That is fine, you will have discharged your liability for council tax.

 

I will also speak to the ombudsman as suggested.

 

Dont stand for any nonsense from the council, the ombudsman can clear this up very quickly.

 

The first bailiff visted last year so this will be the sencond visit by the firm but the first by this bailiff. So just to confirm he has acted fraudulently by charging me £120 to visit?

 

Yes, If the liability order is valid and compliant, the law only allows £24.50 for a first visit and £18 for a second, no card fees, levies and van fees etc. FYI here is the actual legislation according to its most recent amendment in 2006: The Council Tax and Non-Domestic Rating (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2006

 

 

 

Errata in my original reply: complaint with Section 33 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 It should say: compliant with Regulation 33 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992.

[tomtubby]

The law prescribing bailiffs fees for unpaid council tax is Regulation 14(2) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 and prescribes £24.50 for a first visit. If he is trying to charge £100+ you mention in your post then he commits an offence under Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 and you have a right to make a complaint to police for committing fraud by false representation. Show the police the bailiff's document proving he is trying to defraud you with his fees.

 

You also have a right to make an official complaint against the bailiff addressed to the court that issued his certificate. Phone the Ministry of Justice Public Register of Bailiffs on 020 3334 6355 and ask which court issued his certificate, then download the complaint form http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/form4_0606.pdf and send the form to the certificating court enclosing supporting evidence such as the bailiffs document showing his fees.

 

You can approach the council and offer to pay it direct and bypass the bailiff altogether. Make it known their bailiff is a fraudster and a cheat and have a copy of the bailiff document handy.

 

If you have moved and did not receive the liability order or a summons to appear before the magistrates court then the liability order is not valid because it is not complaint with Section 33 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 so you do not need to pay bailiffs fees at all. It is also in breach of Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978. Speak to the Local Government Ombudsman and he'll sort that out for you.

 

HC.....The above is not correct concerning the Liability Order not being valid. All local authorities rely upon Section 35 (2)

 

35. (2) A summons issued under regulation 34(2) may be served on a person—

(a) by delivering it to him, or

(b) by leaving it at his usual or last known place of abode, or in the case of a company, at its registered office, or

© by sending it by post to him at his usual or last known place of abode, or in the case of a company, to its registered office, or

(d) by leaving it at, or by sending it by post to him at, an address given by the person as an address at which service of the summons will be accepted.

[YorkshireGirl]

Thanks for all your help, if you wasn't in Dubai I would get you a pint!

 

Just one more question before I get busy sending off all these letters and complaints.

 

What should I do about the bailiff if he comes today? Can he force his way in? Shall I phone him and ask him whats going on? I'm a bit scared to leave the house incase he comes.

 

Apparently he didn't even knock on the door yesterday

[Guest Happy Contrails]

I am in the UK regularly as aircrew and that pint sounds like a great idea.

 

If a bailiff turns up while you are out, he cannot commit breaking and entering so worry little.

 

Never telephone a bailiff, or open the door to him or say your name, just ask him to quietly leave the property. Say you are acting under legal advice and his fees have been found to be fraudulent and the matter is being passed to police for investigation under the Fraud Act.

 

If you want a giggle at the bailiffs expense, (and capture this on video using your mobile) ask which court issued his bailiffs certificate and mention you need this information to complete a Form 4, If he doesn't run a mile, his fees will certainly drop like a stone. He will know you have caught him with his pants at half mast. Post it on YouTube

[YorkshireGirl]

Thank you,

 

I'm an eejit... I called him just before you posted this, I asked about the charges and he said that I just had to pay them and it was tough. I then told him what I knew about the visit charges being applied being too high and said that I was well within my rights to make a Form 4 complaint to the court. (I phoned the courts and found out that he is certificated this morning!) he then changed his tune and said he would call his office and try and sort it out.

 

He phoned me back about five minutes later and said that the charges were "basic enforcement fees" I asked what these fees were for and whe simply said "I don't know." and advised me to make a payment on Monday for the amount I thought I owed. He did say that Jacobs would add fees if I didn't clear the amount they say is outstanding though.

 

He then said that he wasn't in my area today so wouldn't be calling back. I asked him when he was likely to be here and he replied "not until the later half of next week." I wonder why he left me a note saying he would be back in 24 hours yesterday if this is the case.... Anyway I've moved anything I have of any value and my housemates have been intructed not to let anyone in so fingers crossed it should be ok.

 

I'm going to send the letter about the magistrates court and liability order to the council later and pay them off on Monday.

 

Once again I would like to send a big thanks for the help. It makes me really cross to think these crooks are getting away with scaring people like this every day. For every person with the internet and the gumption to check this stuff out there must be ten people who don't and just pay their inflated charges. ARRRGGGHHH rant over but I'm getting really wound up about all this.

[YorkshireGirl]

Right - after what feels like forever I have done a letter to the council. Please can you have a quick scan and tell me is this is ok? I've XXXX out identifying details. I will post first class recorded on Monday as I can't afford to pay until then.

 

Part 1 --------

 

 

I am writing to complain about the service I have received from Kirklees Council and your appointed Bailiffs, Jacobs Certificated Bailiffs regarding my old council tax account xxxxxxxxxxx.

 

The council tax outstanding refers to a property I lived in 2003-2005. For the majority of this time I was a full time student and the outstanding amount refers to the period from July 2005 to September 2005. Despite the fact that I supplied the council with details of my forwarding address I never received communication regarding the outstanding amount of council tax until November 2007 when I received a letter at my current address. I queried this letter by email and sent in proof of my student status as requested and I thought this resolved the matter.

 

At the end of April 2008 a bailiff knocked on my door and demanded 346.25 + costs. I promptly contacted the council by email and asked why I was still being chased for this debt, as stated previously, I still believed that I didn’t owe ********* any money and was awaiting a reply to my questions. I finally received the reply in January 2009 that verified the details of the oustanding amount. I started making payments to Jacobs Certificated Bailiffs two days later.

 

I am currently a full time student with no income other than my student loan. Due to the current economic situation part time work that I was relying on has been cancelled so I fell into difficulty making payments. I contacted Jacobs as soon as I realised that I would be unable to make the payment once in February and again in late March/early April where I stated that I would pay the balance owing in full on the 20th April 2009 when I receive my student loan payment. The balance owing at this time was £236.25 the representative that I spoke to agreed to this.

[YorkshireGirl]

Part Two!

 

On the 15th April 2009 a Bailiff named *********** visited my house, he made no attempt to knock at the door or ring the doorbell. He left a Notice of Removal which stated I had 24 hours to pay £378.25 or my goods would be removed. This left me upset and baffled. I telephoned the Bailiff on the number supplied and he told me that if I thought there was an error then I needed to speak to the office. He told me he would call me back later in the day. I then spoke to the office who refused to discuss the case with me and said that I could only contact the bailiff.

 

At this point I must point out that at no point did I refuse payment. Jacobs Certificated Bailiffs reneged on our agreement and as I needed help and advice I did some research on the conduct of (the council) and Jacobs. This has raised the following points with which I seek clarification.

 

• Despite being informed of my forwarding address in September 2005, (the council) did not contact me regarding the outstanding council tax until November 2007. Please note that I did not receive the liability order or a summons to appear before the magistrate’s court. Therefore the liability order is not valid because it is not complaint with Regulation 33 of the Council Tax (Administration & Enforcement) Regulations 1992. It is also in breach of Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978.
  

• As Jacobs certificated Bailiffs who are acting on behalf of (the council) are collecting a council tax debt they must abide by the law as detailed in Regulation 14(2) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992. This clearly states that they can only charge me £24.50 for the first visit and £18.00 for a second visit. As previously stated earlier in this letter my outstanding balance in January 2009 was £236.25. However on the 15th April the charges had mysteriously jumped to 378.25. This is in increase of £142 which is significantly more than the allowed £18. I have asked both Jacobs Certificated Bailiffs Head office and the Bailiff In Charge to explain these charges several times but I have been unsuccessful in receiving a satisfactory response from them. Please note I intend to make a form four complaint to the certificating court regarding this matter.
  

[YorkshireGirl]

Part Three! - Sorry this is the longest letter in history and I should be studying!!! Is this bit ok, and will I be acting lawfully by only paying them the £50.95?

 

In light of the above circumstances I have today made a payment to (the council) the sum of £50.95. This comprises the total of the final bill that (the council) allegedly issued on 7th November 2005 £160.95 minus the £110 payments that I have made to Jacobs.

Please note that because I am concerned about the legitimacy of the charges that Jacobs have charged to my account, I have paid the council direct through the online service. I have also disregarded the costs that (the council) have added to the account as I did not receive a liability order or a summons to appear before the magistrates court as required by law. I therefore feel these charges are invalid and request that they be removed.

 

Please can you instruct Jacobs Certificated bailiffs to stop trying to extort money from me by using intimidatory tactics. By paying the final bill on (the Council) website I have discharged my liability for this bill and therefore any further attempts to extort money from me will be considered unlawful.

 

This matter has caused me a lot of stress and worry and a great amount of embarrassment as the Bailiff feels that it is appropriate to post threatening demands through the door of my shared house without ensuring that it is in a sealed envelope. For this reason I ask that you review and respond confirming the matter closed within the period of six working days as specified on (the council) website. Please can you ensure all communication is made in writing. Please note that if I do not receive a response I shall refer this matter to the Local Government Ombudsman.

 

Regards

[andie_303]

Jacobs are quite frankly **** of the earth - thankfully I record telephone conversations and got some great threats recorded, took them down to my council and refused to leave until the director of revenues cam and listened. My file was taken back from Jacobs and my council issued compensation for distressn caused.

 

Hope you get them!

[YorkshireGirl]

Thank you Andie!

 

I was starting to think that I was an evil person by the way the speak to me on the phone. I called them a couple of hours ago and the bloke I spoke to was so rude and agressive.

[andie_303]

Oh no believe me I know all about them - they are rude, arrogant and bullies

[Guest Happy Contrails]

Town hall civil servants wont care for reading essays.

 

 

Name of Authority

 

[DATE]

 

Formal complaint: Council tax and bailiffs

 

I write to complain about the unlawful conduct of your bailiff contractor Jacobs collecting my old council tax account xxxxxxxxxxx. it is from a property I lived in 2003-2005 and during this time I was in full education at university with no income and thus did not attract a council tax liability.

 

In April 2008 Jacobs demanding £346.25 + fees and I contacted the Authority by email confirming I didn't owe any money but I received no reply. I received a letter in January 2009 from Jacobs and I was made to pay in installments. I contacted Jacobs when I fell into financial difficulty and I told them I would pay the balance £236.25 when I could afford to do so.

 

Jacobs called to post document through the letterbox which said I had to pay £378.25 within 24 hours. He made no attempt to make contact with me or knock the door. I called the bailiff on his mobile who told me to contact his office but his office told me to contact the bailiff.

 

I have made a payment of £50.95 today to completely discharge my liability.

 

My complaint is on the following grounds.

 

1. The council did not comply with Regulation 33 of the Council Tax (Administration & Enforcement) Regulations 1992 because it failed to serve upon me a final notice.

 

2. The council did not comply with Regulation 34(2) of the Council Tax (Administration & Enforcement) Regulations 1992 because it failed to issue a summons directed to me to appear before the court.

 

3. The bailiff while acting as agent for the Authority committed an offence of fraud by false representation, a criminal offence under Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 by pretending to be entitled to charge fees of approximately £128.25 that he is not entitled to charge and in any event his fees contradicted Amendment 5 of the Council Tax and Non-Domestic Rating (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2006.

 

4. As my address is different to the address the authority applied for the liability order, the law namely Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 says the liability order is not valid, therefore I have no legal obligation to pay bailiffs fees or costs incurred by the Authority.

 

I now ask that the Authority do pay me the sum of [AMOUNT] within fourteen days being:

 

1. All bailiffs fees paid to your bailiff contractor [AMOUNT]

 

2. All council tax payments paid to your bailiff and to the authority for occupancy at the charge address while I was in full time education [£AMOUNT]

 

3. The fee charged by the Authority for its court proceedings [£AMOUNT]

 

If I do not receive payment or reasonable grounds why the Authority should not pay, I will automatically file a complaint with the Local Government Ombudsman and make an application for compensation for being defrauded by the Authority and its contractor.

 

Yours Sincerely.

 

[YorkshireGirl]

Wow, thanks! I'm not very good at writing concise letters.

 

I'm going to edit it slightly because I am liable for two months of council tax, from July to August -I moved out of the property in early September - this is where the fees are arising from.

 

Should I be asking for the court and bailiff fees as I am not going to pay them? I was just going to pay the £50.95 remaining as the original bill before all court and bailiff charges was £160.95. Should I ask the authority to use this money to settle the court costs and bailiff fees?

 

I'm a tad confused now...

[Guest Happy Contrails]

Offer the council to retain two months council tax but ask you do not pay any fees. These were incurred due to the councils own ineptness when they sent documents to the wrong address. They should have done a Citizenview lookup to find your new address BEFORE applying for a liability order. This means that the court and bailiffs fees are a matter the council and its bailiffs need to sort out between themselves.

 

I would only send one letter to the council then quickly escalate your complaint at the first sign of an excuse. The Local Government Ombudsman has a power to award compensation, usually about £100 in cases such as this, not much but enough to pay for a night out on the tiles.

 

This still doesn't stop you reporting the bailiff on a Form 4 for defrauding you with £160.95 fees when it should be £24.50.

[YorkshireGirl]

Thank you HC!

 

I'll edit the new letter over the weekend. Apologies for not replying sooner. I've spent that much time and effort on this, I've really neglected my uni work so I disconnected my internet today so i could do a big chunk of it.

 

Anyway I'll post the new letter when done and pay the remainder of the two months worth of council tax directly to the council on Monday.

[YorkshireGirl]

Also, I've been reading a bit - do i need to write to Jacobs and give them chance explain their charges. I've contacted them by phone several times but no joy.

[Guest Happy Contrails]

The rules on making a complaint against a bailiff don't require you to contact the bailiff beforehand. In any event you have tried contacting them without success.

 

You might have been reading the Civil Procedure Rules. You are required to give reasonable notice of proceedings before you file a claim in the county court.

[chris600uk]

The rules on making a complaint against a bailiff don't require you to contact the bailiff beforehand. In any event you have tried contacting them without success.

 

I agree with Happy, and it's one of the main reasons that you should never speak to a bailiff because you then have no proof of what you said.

 

Even so, I would write to them giving them an opportunity to correct their "mistake".

 

I only say that cos bitter experience tells me it's the right thing to do.

When you are dealing with legal people of any sort, who generally have a very warped and limited view of the world - anything you do needs to appear to be reasonable, even if it is actually totally unnecessary; it can make all the difference to how a judge views your case.

[YorkshireGirl]

Hi everyone,

 

I sent off the letters and I received a reply from Jacobs this morning. I foolishly forgot to put a postal order in the envelope so they haven't sent me a statement of account. I'll post it to the in the morning though - I can't wait to see what their charges mean.

 

The letter contains the following paragraph that has got me a wee bit concerned - can anyone help? This is regarding the letter that I sent to the council. I sent a copy of this letter to Jacobs.

 

With reference to the paragraph in your letter to *the council* which relates to us, we advise that our bailiff has not comitted fraud and all costs incurred have been done in accordance with legislation. We are aware that the vehicle levied upon may not belong to you, we request tat you furnish us with proof of the registered owner and we will remove this levy.

 

What does all that mean. I wasn't aware that they had levied on any car, especially as I do not own one.I have no document to say that they have done this and in various conversations with the bailiff and Jacobs they didn't inform me of this. There are only a couple of people in my house who have cars and they were either home for the easter holiday or at work so their shouldn't have been a car on the drive. I live just around ther corner from a Dr's surgery so people often park on the ker outside our house as there is no car park at the Dr's - do you think they have levied against a strangers car?

[hallowitch]

letter back to bailiffs

please provide me with a screen shot of my account

also provide me with a copy of the form 7

there is no charge for this i believe

[YorkshireGirl]

letter back to bailiffs

please provide me with a screen shot of my account

also provide me with a copy of the form 7

there is no charge for this i believe

 

Thanks, so I don't have to pay them £10? Whats a form 7? Is this something that they need to levy my non existent car?

[hallowitch]

its a form 7s if the bailiff has done a levy its put on a form 7s you get a copy and he gets a copy

Jacobs are a pale blue colour i got 2 here both them not worth the paper they are written on i got both them removed from my daughters account