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HSBC Credit Card no agreement what next ?


Hotdog77
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Hi Jm,

 

I will do this, but pls advice what the time frame is for them to supply me with the info? This has been dragging on for nearly a year now, do you think I have a case for the courts?

 

Also, at present as previously written HSBC havent provided me with the cca with my signiture on it, but they have taken a blank form and cheekily filled it our thierselves with my details. Where do i stand with this? as they have not supplied me with a copy of the agreement, can i seek an injunction prohibiting enforcement until they do provide the agreement?

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I wouldn't advise going down the injunction route ,hotdog,..... IMHO that is full of pitfalls and evasion avenues for lawyers....

 

The ball is basically in their court ,.... you have asked them to provide, they have , under the law, 12+ 2days from dispatch of your letter to comply ........ failure to comply renders them in breach of the Consumer Credit Act for which they can be reported to the Information Commissioner

 

Information Commissioner's Office - ICO

 

Failure to provide what you have requested also renders the alleged debt 'unenforceable' ..... doesn't mean it goes away .... just that they can't chase you for it ....

Furthermore , if they threaten court action ....see my advice on this thread .....

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/239992-hsbc-metropolitan-sar-2.html#post2695038

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

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Thanks Jm,

 

i will send Metropolitan the CCA and see what i get, i'll also send a letter to ICO about non compliance.

 

I've noticed something, i went onto my online banking with hsbc today, and usually all my accounts are visible for me to access. WELL!!! My credit card account was not visible at all, which i find very strange.

 

There is also an issue with my ppi, which bothers me as they are still applying this to the account as well as interest. I do understand that the ppi is a seperate issue, but would i ever be able to claim this back??

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Hmmm. that is a bit strange ... maybe best to ask them where it's gone , unless you've declared it to be 'In Dispute' in which case they may have taken it off for investigation ..... I'm not sure .... :confused:

 

As regards PPI hotdog ,there is an excellent forum on this site , I'm sure if you post your situation in a new thread there you'll get valuable advice on re-claiming .......

 

Payment Protection Insurance (PPI) - The Consumer Forums

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Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

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Hi Jm,

 

its been decalared as in dispuate for a long time now and even themselves have confirmed that this is not so. The amount owed is still valid and NOT in dispute. Could it be that they have passed it to Metropolitan?

 

Ok, i'll post on ppi forum

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Hi Jm,

 

its been decalared as in dispuate for a long time now and even themselves have confirmed that this is not so. The amount owed is still valid and NOT in dispute. Could it be that they have passed it to Metropolitan?

 

If they have you'll no doubt be hearing from Metro in due course .... :rolleyes::)

 

Ok, i'll post on ppi forum

 

You'll get good results on there I'm sure , they're very experienced ..... :D

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Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

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Hi JMHow are you? and hope you had a good weekend!

I need some serious help here. I also need to know how long it takes for them to apply for the judgements. Can they go into my earnings and contact my employer?

I'm very very very concerned now, on the verge of tears. I can't have any on these happen. HELP PLSSSSS

 

]Letter dated 13th Jan[/font] from MCS ltd. Having failed to make a payment they now have no alternative to take further action which may involve:

DC calling at my door, [/font]

DG solicitor issuing legal proceedings,

A CCJ being registered against me,

Court bailiff visiting me,

An attachment of earnings order

Oh and I’ll have to pay costs of legal fees if legal action is taken. And I have 24hrs to pay the full outstanding amt

 

Letter dated 28th Dec they are disappointed that they have not been able to come to an agreement to clear the outstanding debt............instruct DG......attachment of earnings......

Letter dated 15th Dec, explaining who they are n I should make full payment

 

Letter dated 14th Dec from HSBC card services- legal proceedings impending- and my acc details has been passed to MCS also they have passed my details to all the credit ref agencies.

 

I need some serious help here. I also need to know how long it takes for them to apply for the judgements. Can they go into my earnings and contact my employer?

I'm very very very concerned now, on the verge of tears. I can't have any on these happen. HELP PLSSSSS

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Hi Hotdog :).... my first question ...... did you follow the advice I gave you on #52 ........?

 

They can't send in bailiffs or attach your earnings without going to court and they're going to look rather silly when you counter with a breach of the Data Protection Act i.e. no CCA ...this is bully boy tactics .... if you let them get to you it'll have worked ....

 

And if you have followed my advice on #52.... including the link I gave you on there .... then you should be ok ........ please , don't get to the verge of tears hotdog......it's what they want ...... they won't be going home at night and crying because you haven't paid :D.

 

but by all means come back and ask if you're still worried about anything .... .......

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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Hi Jm,

YES! I followed your instructions on point 52, they received the cca request letter at 8.10am on 15/01/2010, although I have not contacted the ICO. I shall do that tomorrow morning.

Sorry, things are a little difficult at work as I can’t always check my emails or go to sites/links, and my PC at home is out of order. Their scaremongering is kinda working, I know they are being ruthless…I know…I’m just letting it get to me, I think more so where I’m trying to get my foot on a really good start this year. Ive copied part of the link which a letter to the ico and conjure up my own to get it sent tomorrow.

I will also be sending by fax tomorrow to the FSO all the recent correspondence received by HSBC and MCS as I am not happy with the reply I received from the complaints I put through.

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Hi Jm,

 

just to let you know that on sedning the CPR letter, HSBC still confirmed that they could not give me an original copy of the cca with signiture and the the debt was still valid...END OF.

 

Im now waiting on reply from MCS re: CCA request with £1 cheque sent

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If you've got that in writing then that's great hotdog:-) ,guard that letter and make copies so you don't lose it! ......... ..... if they can't produce a signed copies of the CCA then they can't enforce the debt ..... and they can't go to court without one ....so - no Bailiffs , no attachment orders , no pressure for you to pay ...

 

And , as MCS are HSBC they won't be able to produce a true copy either .... (if they do I'd be very suspicious of it ! :rolleyes:). They're the bully boys HSBC will use to try to frighten you into paying ........

 

Having said that , the debt does not go away .... it just can't be enforced ..... you can pay it off at your convenience not theirs ... :D

 

Be interested to see what MCS come back with on your CCA request :rolleyes:

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi hotdog ....

 

two ways to go here ..... :)

 

1. Send a call-up asking them to do you the courtesy of replying to your letter which you know they received on 15. 01. 10 and remind them that you already have a letter admitting that HSBC cannot produce this agreement .... so they might as well hand it back to them, as it's unenforceable .... .....

 

2. Let 'em sweat .....the ball is in their court..... without an agreement they can't take this any further ... although, being MCS they will try to frighten you .......

 

IMHO , you have the whip hand ..... :D

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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Hi Jm,

I think I’m just going to sit here and let em stew for a bit, although if I am correct , don’t they have 12 days + …. To respond?

I also checked internet banking today and cheque the £1.00….strange, maybe they are going to pull something out the bag. …..a rabbit maybe?

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Hi hotdog,:)

 

They have 12+2 days to produce , which by my reckoning is past .... (on 29th January) . However , if HSBC can't produce it , then MCS down the hall won't be able to either ... so, watch for things coming out of the bag ... sleight of hand ..... :rolleyes:

 

I'll watch with interest .......... :D

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Jm,

 

Got a letter dated 26th Jan...strange!! saying that they have contacted thier client for a response, and all they have done is attach another sheet to thier letter head of which is an email from hsbc whith the details of a letter they sent me on the 3rd December.

 

Basically if i dont not get back to them within 14 days, they will pursure action against me!!

 

The ICO is also looking into this as well as the FOS.

 

Letter dated 3rd Dec

 

Please consider this response to be the banks response to both your recent email and the communication from the FOS.

 

i acknowledge your concerns concerning your credit card account to be in dispute under section 78 of the consumer credit act. However the bank has provided you with the required documentation in relation to section 78 of the consumer credit act and as such your credit card account has not been rendered unenforceable. Please be aware that the banks final posistion on this matter has been clarified, as per our letter dated 26th May 2009.

 

As your credit card account is not considered to be void, you are still required to maintain the contractual monthly payments.

having checked your credit card account, i can see that the previous 8 minimum required payments have not been satisfied correctly. Therefore, the banks collection procedures have continued correctly as as suck i am unable to agree that any bank error has occured in issuing a default notice to you on 29th September. With regards to the interst applied, the bak is acting correctly and continuing to apply interest to your account. as your account is not considered to be in dispute and the original terms of the agreement have not been rendered void. As the banks collection procedures have been followed correctly in view of your credit card account conduct, the correct information has been sent to the CRA by hsbc will not be amended or removed as per your request

 

Letter dated 9th Dec

 

i refer to my previous correspondance dated ...November concerning your request that we provide you with the original signed agreement for this account.

 

please find enclsoed a reconstituted agreement form compliant with regulations 3 of the consumer credit act (cancellation notices and copies of documents) regulations 1983.

 

With regards to your request made under the civil procedures rules, please note we have conducted a reasonable search and at the time of the request the document cannot be located. it was in our control but is no longer in our posession.

 

We have complied with the requirements of section 78 of the consumer credit act. In particular, we have supplied copies compliant with regulations 3 (2) (b) of the consumer credit (concellation notices and copies of documents) regulations 1983.

 

Whilst i understand this may not be the response you were hoping to receive, i trust i have now clarified the banks final response.

 

Where to from here?

Hotdog:(

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Hotdog , they're trying to frighten you again ....... ;)

 

If this is the bank's 'final response' then you can take this forward with the Ombudsman and ICO .... send them both a copy of the above letter , together with a copy of the letter in which HSBC said they could not produce this agreement ...

 

Write to MCS and tell them that under Civil Procedural Regulations , they are required to provide you with copies of all documents they intend to rely on in court ....... if they can't produce the agreement , they can't go there .....

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html#post1868913

 

or you could keep this one up your sleeve for future shenanigans .....

 

Re :

THIS IS A REQUEST UNDER THE CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES.

PLEASE DO NOT IGNORE.

I am in receipt of your letter dated 12th November, this was received on ?? November 2008

You have indicated that you have no alternative but to take further action against me, this may involve:

a) Debt collectors calling at my door.

b) DG solicitors issuing legal proceedings leading to:

A County Court Judgement being registered ; a County Court Bailiff visiting my home and removing goods ; an attachment of earnings order whereby any current or future employer would be ordered to deduct from my salary

I am sure that you are aware that I have long since requested from your client, under both the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (The Act) and the Data Protection Act 1998, a copy of the agreement to which both you and your client allege I am a signatory. To date this has not been provided to me and whilst I appreciate your client has endeavoured to persuade me that the provision of a copy of current terms and conditions is sufficient to discharge your client from further obligations under section 78 of the Act. Likewise I too have explained that the mere provision of a copy of such is not a legally permissible substitute for the provision of a true copy of the executed agreement as required under section 78 of the Act and as prescribed by Regulation 3 Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.

I am sure you are also aware that under section 78(6) of the Act, whilst a creditor is in default of a request made under sub-section (1) they may not enforce the agreement.

Notwithstanding the foregoing and your client's persistent, unexplained and wilful refusal to supply a copy of the executed agreement in accordance with its obligations (the permitted omissions under Regulation 3(2) excepted), your client has made plain its intention to begin legal proceedings against me. In consequence this matter may now be treated as one which is subject to the control of the Civil Procedure Rules.

Take notice therefore that under CPR Practice Direction - Protocols paragraph 4.6(a) and (d), I request that you supply copies of the following documents:

[1] A true copy of the executed credit agreement incorporating prescribed notices, terms and conditions applicable at the time the agreement was executed and

[2] Any further or subsequent notices, terms and conditions relied upon.

Please note that my request under the Practice Direction is not a request for production within the confines of the Act and Regulations but rather, it is for a copy of the executed agreement, including signatures and all such other notices, terms and conditions as will be relied upon in the event that your client shall begin a claim.

A copy of the documents I have requested should be supplied to me within 14 days and you are urged not to begin proceedings for a period of not less than 14 days following the supply of those documents to me.

Should your client elect to ignore my request under the Practice Direction and commence proceedings, it is likely that I shall repeat my request for the provision of documents under CPR 31.14. In the event that your client should fail to comply with my CPR 31.14 request, I will not hesitate in making an application to the court for an order that further proceedings upon the claim be stayed pending provision of the requisite documents, in the course of which application I will of course refer to this and previous requests for the provision of copy documents.

I look forward to hearing from you within the time stated.

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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Hi Jm,

How are you on this glorious rainy day?

For sure I will send MCS a short note that under Civil Procedural Regulations, they are required to provide me with copies of all documents they intend to rely on in court.

Just a note, I checked my credit file today and HSBC have now logged my account as settled with 8 missed payments. Could this be due to the fact that it has been passed to MCS?

Just to let you know that I’ve not put the post on ppi regarding this account as I am not sure how to write it/put is across.

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Hi hotdog .... I've had glorious sunshine here today . and feeling fine . :D

 

Not sure why they've shown it as settled .... might be because it's been passed on..... but as MCS are HSBC I hardly think so .... but might be an idea to take a screen shot of the credit file log and save it ......

 

As for the PPI hotdog , I would try the PPI forum on here , post your circumstances and you'll get great advice ...lot of knowledgeable people on there ....... here' s the link . ...but come back if you have any problems . :D

Payment Protection Insurance (PPI) - The Consumer Forums

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi Jm,

 

an update to no update to MCS's response.

 

Letter & email sent to MCS 16.2.10:

Thanks for your letter dated 26th January of which was received 8th Feb 2010.

If this is your clients 'final response’ then kindly note that under Civil Procedural Regulations, you are required to provide me with copies of all documents you intend to rely on in court.

are unable to comply fully and properly with my request dated 13th Jan 2010, so please return the fee of £1.00 enclosed with my original letter and Note AGAIN that the funds were not to be used for any other purpose

I look forward to receiving my cheque and trust that we are both clear on the consequences of any further action you wish to take.

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Letter and email sent to MCS 18.2.10 and both letters were posted too:

Thanks for your letter dated 26th January of which was received 8th Feb 2010.

 

If this is your clients 'final response’ then kindly note that under Civil Procedural Regulations, you are required to provide me with copies of all documents you intend to rely on in court.

 

Furthermore I have noted that as you are unable to comply fully and properly with my request dated 13th Jan 2010, so please return the fee of £1.00 enclosed with my original letter and Note AGAIN that the funds were not to be used for any other purpose

 

Your letters of December 2009 and January 2010 are incorrect and frivolous, you are fully aware of legally valid reasons why no payment has been made on this account, namely that the signed agreement which underpins this account has not been supplied (HSBC have only supplied a blank application which could apply to absolutely anybody) despite a perfectly valid request and furthermore, it is suggested that notwithstanding the failure to supply a copy, the agreement itself is improperly executed, devoid of all prescribed terms and deficient in respect of detail relating to APR, total charge for credit and statements of rights ,remedies and protections as required by schedules 1,2 and 6 Consumer Credit Agreements Regulations 1983

Therefore the agreement as outlined in section 65 (1) Consumer Credit Act must be laid before the court to be granted an enforcement order before any further action can be taken

It is my view that the court would not grant such an order due to the deficiencies that I have outlined within the agreement, further more this has already been raised with HSBC yet I note they have still assigned the account over to yourselves and the absence of any documents disproving my points itself speaks volumes. I will now be taking action under the Civil Procedure Rule 31.16 to force disclosure of my signed agreement

Therefore, I would indeed welcome the opportunity to place this before the court. furthermore should you proceed with the threats to issue a court claim I will make an immediate application to have it set aside for the grounds outlined above, also I shall refer the judge to this letter when the matter of costs falls due

I trust this outlines my position clearly enough for you

I look forward to receiving my cheque and hearing from you within 14 days from the date of this letter

 

To date i've heard NOTHING from MCS or HSBC

 

Not sure what to do now

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Hi Hotdog ..:) I think you've got them all on the run......LOL

 

Write and ask MCS for a response to your letters , or sit back and let them stew ..... the ball is in their court and I don't think they want to play any more ..... :rolleyes:

 

Personally I would just nudge them for a reply , asking them to outline their intentions for settlement of this matter.........:D

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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Hi Jm,

 

Hope you are well!

 

I hope i have got em, they are usually quick to respond to all correspondance.

 

I'll send em a letter on Monday for them to outline thier intensions for settlement.

 

Hope you have a lovely day

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi, just looking through here for help, and thought I should post my situation, because it's similar - I was also in the situation where HSBC had no existing agreement - their sols had at one point said in a letter that 'as the account is closed there is no existing agreement under which the bank can be seen as a creditor' but the Judge found against me, I think it must be based on DG's argument that the history on the account and the statements proved it had existed (I haven't yet found out what the Judge's reasons were because the Court, bless them, sent the Judgment to the wrong address, and nearly a year has gone by since the Trial!). I am now trying to decide what to do next - planning to send letter saying I will offer them £1,000 (the debt was £7,000-odd, plus costs of £1,750-ish). I'm wondering if we can really fight these people, since the Courts seem to be twisting the law to suit them.

 

I think what I'm trying to say is, don't assume that they can't beat you, even if there is no agreement! I am furious, but wondering how far they will agree with the banks, no matter what. Hope you have more luck than I have had so far.....

 

Sirensinger

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