Help needed with Halifax & Blair O & Scott

[San Martino]

Hello

 

I need a little advice on what to do next.

 

First, a little background info. I have quite a large debt with a Halifax cc, due to an untimely set of circumstances i fell behind in payments, and eventually the account was defaulted in July 2008. Since late last year the account was being handled by in house DCA Blair Oliver & Scott, with whom i have been making very small agreed payments of £15.00 pm.

 

Since finding this site I have sent cca requests to both on March 10th.Not getting any response by the 16th day i sent out the 'account in dispute' letter.

 

Yesterday i recieved replies from both companies.

 

Halifax : In their letter they state i recieved the documents I requested on the 23rd March. I did not recieve anything at all. Could I ask that someone scrutinize this reply to see if there are any faults within it .

 

 

 

 

Blair Oliver & Scott : If this is the credit agreement should'nt it have to include the prescribed terms?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Both the OC and DCA have not complied with my request, I have let them know they are in default of sec 78 of the CCA 1974.

 

Should I continue to pay the agreed lower payment under protest or should I wait to recieve threatning DCA letters.

 

What should I expect and how should i deal with it.

 

Thanks for your time.

 

San Martino.

 

 

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" Sir Winston Churchill.

Edited April 10, 2009 by San Martino
erased personal info

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi San Martino,

Well done on your actions so far.

Looking at your post, to me it does actually look like an agreement rather than an application, as it says *your application has been approved* and presumably your personal details were pretyped in by them rather than handwritten by you, indicating they had already received an application form with said details. Just my impression, don't take it as gospel.

Having said that, you need far more expert opinion than mine on this, I'm still learning as I go along, same as everyone on here . Obviously even if it's an actual agreement the prescribed terms must be met, so you need more expert advice as to its validity.

I think you'd get much more response by moving your thread to the Debt Collection Industry forum. You could either pm one of the site team to move it, or start a new thread on there.

Best of luck with it,

Elsa x

[maroondevo52]

Thread moved, for more help in this wonderful Forum

[mr.ton]

The fools tie themselves up in their own confusion its laughable

They have no legal powers over you whatsoever..so let them take you to a county court, you will have so many rights that way

[lilly white]

ok

 

1 IT IS ONE COMPLETE DOCUMENT OR TWO COPIES

[San Martino]

Thanks mr.ton

 

Do you think i should sit back for now and see what they do, or send a cpr letter (31.16) to add some more weight to the process.

 

Also, the last paragragh on page 1 in the Halifax letter says:

 

''in the instance that an agreement was unenforceable, this would not mean that the agreement was void''

 

What do make of their statement?

 

Thanks

[San Martino]

Lilly white

 

What Blair Oliver & Scott sent was a copy of a front and back page of the Halifax 'agreement' , without any prescribed terms relating to the product.

 

Hope this helps

 

Thanks

[IdaInFife]

prescribed terms are there on the back

 

ida x

[the_shadow]

Lilly white

 

What Blair Oliver & Scott sent was a copy of a front and back page of the Halifax 'agreement' , without any prescribed terms relating to the product.

 

Hope this helps

 

Thanks

 

As Ida says the prescribed terms are on the 2nd page although it doesnt look right as they dont fill the full A4 sheet of paper unlike the front.

 

S.

[IdaInFife]

wait a mo,

 

if you look through the paper you can see that where it has your details the boxes for apr are smack bang in the middle of the page and you can see t and c's but on your page 2 they are too the right side?

 

 

you need to watch cause i know your date of birth etc cause i can see though the second page onto the first.

 

the problem being that it looks enforceable and if page 2 is a copy of what is on the back but just realigned thru prining etc

 

In my opinion, it does look ok

 

ida x

[harrassed senior]

Just to pick the bones of their letter.

 

IMHO they are taking the ambiguous approach that when you ask for a 'copy' you are asking for 'as in a copy of a newspaper'.

 

Where that falls down is once the word 'true' is placed in front of the word 'copy'.

 

At this point, if they have your (I don't mean you personally), signature, why would they bother not to photocopy the document and send it as a 'true copy'. It seems to be a play on words.

 

It may be that we could 'adjust' the wording on our CCA Requests to nullify this particular ambiguous interpretation of what is required.

 

The DCA's are wriggling at the end of a very long rope, and it is starting to strangle them. There inventiveness with interpretation seems to know no bounds!!

 

Hope that makes sense?

[San Martino]

Thank you for responding Shadow,

 

I have just taken a good look at what was sent to me.

The terms are indeed 'copied'on the back of the agreement page, However it does look like it's out of place as far as the font size is concerned.

 

Am I to surmise that they have just copied a set of terms and conditions

on the back of the page?

 

Should I send a subject access request or go the CPR route to see what they really Have?

 

Also, if what they have sent me does not corespond to the actual documents they have, have they shot themselves in the foot.

 

Thanks again,

 

SM

[San Martino]

Hello Harrassed Senior,

 

In my original cca letter I did ask for a true copy of my agreement.

 

I do have to agree with you about the way these matters are handled.

Either they have the correct true copy or not.

 

Thanks for yout interest

 

SM

[lilly white]

Sar To Oc Lets See What That Brings Back

[babydoll0141917]

subbing

[babydoll0141917]

Hi

 

there are loads of us with these agreements with Conditions of use or financial stuff of the back,, but what we have noticed is there is nothing that indicates anything being on the reverse ..no page numbers no overleaf no PTO,,The agreement as we know at the mo is improperly executed as its not signed by the bank so can only be enforced in court..thats if it is enforcable at all!! my agreement has been pasted around many DCAs, i havent payed a penny since march 08,,got defaulted in jan 08,,The default notice is invalid has they havent given me 14 days to pay by..so if the agreement does turn out to be enforcable then they will be getting a lot less than they are asking..I also think IMO that if halifax did have ace cards up thier sleeves why havent they used them yet !!

[San Martino]

Hi Bbabydoll

 

Sorry this is late getting back to you.

I've been waiting for my SAR to see what it brings.

I was just thinking in response to your post that it would be very easy to copy a set of terms and conditions on the reverse of an original application/agreement with a xerox machine, so how would anyone know whether it was linked at all with no of reference made of it.

 

Surely the onus is on the OC to make sure all the prescribed terms are within the '' four corners of the agreement ''.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks

[babydoll0141917]

Hi there

 

the only way we would know if the reverse was really the reverse was if it went to court and the oc had to produce the original!! ive also noticed with mine it has cancellation rights on the front on the doc with say( halifax will send how to cancel forms) then on the reverse it has more cancellation rights which says( to cancel this agreement halifax will need written confirmation from me) now surely u wouldnt have 2 diff cancellation rights on the same doc,,..The prescribed terms are allowed to be on the back but surely there must be a link or overleaf pto or some thing,,If you look in the box just above your signature it says (you have received a copy of Terms and conditions) which avers to them being in a diff document

[vint1954]

Hi San Martino,

 

As you say it is very easy to copy and paste terms on to an agreement or application form.

 

In general the four corners of an agreement include the reverse side, but you would expect there to be some reference on the signature side of the document, to T&C's on the reverse.

 

The T&C's on the reverse contain only one of the prescribed terms. There is no mention of credit limit, or a term refering to the limit being variable, nor is there a reference to methot or timing of repayments. I think this would be enforcable, but only in a court of law.

 

I am however no expert, so hopefully someone with more knowledge will come along soon. Best to sit back and see what your SAR turns up.

 

Have you sent an account in dispute letter?

 

Vint

[vint1954]

Hi babydoll,

 

I think what they have sent satisfies s78 with the exception of missing prescribed terms. All bar these terms can as I understand it, be in a separate document. There are a lot of posts on this great forum explaining why we should not always expect a true document from a CCA request. CCA request does at least start the ball rolling to see what they have in the way of agreements.

 

As you say, there is a requirement to produce the origonal in court, but that seems to vary with the Judge, which of cource it should not.

 

Vint

[San Martino]

Hello Vint

 

Yes I have sent the account in dispute letter.

I received this final response from Halifax.

 

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/San_Martino/Halifax/HalifaxLetterApril28a.jpg

[babydoll0141917]

hi

 

the banks are silly to them selves they know what we are asking for why not just send if they have it then if it turns out enforcable at least they will get their money!! If they dont have it then tells us.. the banks are the ones that let the situation just drag on and the prescribed term credit limit is there also ..we will decide your credit limit and tell you what it is that is a prescribed term unfortunatly

 

Have you had a default notice issused yet?? i got mine in january 2008 only giving me 6 days to pay!!

Edited May 13, 2009 by babydoll0141917

[vint1954]

Hi Babydoll,

 

Your eyes are obviously younger than mine. I missued section 1 at the top.

 

Quite agree with your comments. Most of us would not have been here if the Banks were reasonable in the first place. Guess San martino needs to see if this is realy one document.

 

They do seem to mess up their DN's. I understand that this is a good thing.

 

Vint

[babydoll0141917]

Hi Vint

 

my eyes do play up beleive me ..not has bad as my ears tho .DNs that are messed up it a good thing..they can only claim for the arrears on the DN and uptil termination..Which means they would get about 3000 out of me and not 16000..mind you i think most of the arrears is made up of unlawful charges so they may not get nothing