IFTL v MBNA

[ifoughtthelaw]

Hi All,

 

Starting my own thread after 3 months of reading others!! Would anyone kindly comment on what they think about this application being valid as an agreement? Thanks to you all. Here goes......

[ifoughtthelaw]

Oh dear, they're not very big - I'll try again....

[ifoughtthelaw]

Here is a better copy I hope! Thank you to anyone taking a look and any comments most welcome. MBNA admit not clear in parts but say this is the best copy they can provide. We don't think it is very legible and the terms and conditions they sent were recent, no originals at all.

 

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/allopeeps/Mbnascan150.jpg

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/allopeeps/Mbnascan149.jpg

[the_shadow]

Here is a better copy I hope! Thank you to anyone taking a look and any comments most welcome. MBNA admit not clear in parts but say this is the best copy they can provide. We don't think it is very legible and the terms and conditions they sent were recent, no originals at all.

 

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/allopeeps/Mbnascan150.jpg

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/allopeeps/Mbnascan149.jpg

 

I think its looks like they are copied from microfiche so they may not have the originals anymore.. the t&c appear to be on the back and the prescribed terms look to be there but theyre so small I'd need a magnifying glass to read them.

 

S.

[underdog13]

Looks like that column of terms may have been cut and pasted - an favoured MBNA trick;)

[GamekeeperToPoacher]

Surely it is an application form?

 

GK

[cybermoth]

Looks like an application form. In places it is blurred.

[Undercover-Elsa]

As it's clearly headed an application form, surely all this can possibly prove is that you applied. Doesn't prove you were given the credit There must be thousands of people who apply and subsequently get turned down. Just my humble opinion..the experts will advise further.

Elsa x

[ifoughtthelaw]

Hi

 

Thanks to you all for taking a look, your comments are most appreciated. Will just wait and see now what we get next from MBNA - it seems to have gone a bit quiet for a few days!!

 

Will keep you all updated.

xx

[ifoughtthelaw]

Hi All

 

Decided to take a different approach from my OH (dispute above) and not to CCA for my own account. Sent a SAR request off instead after a charges dispute and breach of my Data Protection. The £10 fee was paid back into the account and this copy was all that was sent back with a set of current t&c.

 

The copy is A5 size printed onto an A4 sheet of paper, and totally illegible when trying to read the back. Enhanced with a computer, I can see that condition 11 relating to Data Protection does not exist on the t&c pasted on the back of the envelope! The current t&c also state something different for condition 11.

 

Can anybody tell me what the significance of paying the £10 fee back to my account means - does this allow MBNA to pretend the request was never made and not to have to provide more info? I needed to see all the data relating to certain actions by them that caused a charge (which they have refunded but not explained how/why it occurred in the first place).

 

Do I have to request ALL the information by naming specific things such as agreement/letters/telephone calls or are they pulling a fast one here and know exactly what they must provide?(I'm not too worried about statements as I have most of these)

 

I was hoping that the SAR would would show what actions they have taken on the account and throw some light on the problem that occurred. It was passed over to RMA who have been calling but I'm now fuming over a home call from them asking one of my children to provide an alternative tel no. Then asking personal questions such as were they on their own? This is a step too far but I have no proof of this phone call.

 

Should I write back to them and ask for all info and report this to the information Commissioner? If condition 11 doesn't exist then what have I signed for and can they process my data without my permission?

 

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/allopeeps/mbnafront.jpg

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/allopeeps/mbnaback.jpg

 

Thanks again! Tiresome lot of games they play at MBNA..........

[supasnooper]

One reason a creditor applies the £10 fee to an account is related to the Statute Barred rule of six years as it will show a date that the account was acknowledged pushing back the 6 year limit.

Make sure you have printed off a copy of your SAR, attach the Recorded Delivery slip, the postal order slip and the printed off the receivers signature. Keep this as proof that your £10 fee was for a SAR and not for anything else.

 

I don't know what SAR letter you've sent as there are several of them on the forum ( I personally don't think the one in the letter templates is precise enough).

 

If you have sent a similar one that I advocate using- you should receive a treasure trove of info. MBNA should supply you with a Comms Log which details any manual intervention on the account which includes the date and the reason for doing so.

It will also show when certain documention was sent out. Further, it will also detail the phone call logs - brilliant for confirming harrassment calls !!

 

I would advise any CAG member dealing with MBNA to do a SAR.

 

For £10.00, the info provided is priceless !!

[GamekeeperToPoacher]

I might just take you up on the Supa as £10 for 2 accounts has to be good value for money.

 

GK

[citizenB]

I have just had a closer look a the documents in post # 10. On the front of the application form it refers to Condition 11 in respect of processing your information. On the back, Condition 11 advises that they will not increase your interest rates for a period of 5 months ??

 

Apart from the fact that I cant see those "financial Conditions" being on the bottom of the mailer part as they would be visible when posting back. It is now clearly obvious that the back and front arent related.

[ifoughtthelaw]

Thanks guys for great advice.

 

Supasnooper - I used my own letter initially as it was a dispute over a charge they had wrongly created but it probably wasn't specific enough. I really wanted a breakdown of what had happened and asked for a copy of the agreement and any other relevant info. I assumed (wrongly) that they would know exactly what they had to provide. I'm re-sending a template from on here which is much more detailed and expecting the long game! I definitely said the £10 payment was for the SAR and not to be used for anything else so I've printed off all the info you suggested, it was all still there so thank you! An absolute MUST for anyone - send all letters recorded as it is your proof of everything!

 

GK - I have another account with them not currently in dispute but going to now include this in my new SAR as £10 not yet cashed by them just paid into my account - I didn't know the £10 covered all accounts held until now

 

Citizen B - Thanks for taking another look - I'm certain now that the rear of the document isn't original as condition 11 signed for as Data Protection but not mentioned on the back!! Complaining to the Information Commissioner next...

 

Thanks again, re-sending my SAR for the 2 accounts - hope they don't think I'm being cheeky ha ha

 

IFTL

[GamekeeperToPoacher]

Well done IFTL

 

GK

 

BTW do you know that you can tickle scales over there )

[supasnooper]

Hi IFTL,

 

Do you have a copy of the SAR you originally sent off.

 

If so, please can you post it up (minus personal details of course ) ?

[ifoughtthelaw]

Thanks snoops for your help!

 

Enjoy the rest of the weekend.

[citizenB]

When is the due date for them responding to your SAR ?

[supasnooper]

Have a look at this thread regarding Subject Access Requests -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/199553-data-protection-sar-guidance.html

[citizenB]

Well done IFTL

 

GK

 

BTW do you know that you can tickle scales over there )

 

I would but it appears I have to spread it around a bit

[ifoughtthelaw]

Hi All

 

I got this letter below today - after finally receiving SAR a couple of days ago following a 2nd request.

 

I've read through the sar info carefully but it actually raises more issues than it solves. They've sent exactly the same size copy of the application form again (tiny A6 size on an A4 sheet and definitely not legible as too small) comms logs and statement info going back about 5 years. They have taken two months to send this but barely given two days for me to read it through before arrogantly assuming that everything is ok when it is NOT. The comms info isn't that easy to understand even though a guide is given, and some abbreviations are not on the list.

 

Has anyone ever had their payment dates altered giving less time to pay at any point? I seem to have had my dates altered and got caught for a few charges here as payments were then made late by date alteration.

 

How would I know if PPI has been charged? I can't see anything specific - should it list it as a charge?

 

According to my sar it says I am 'delinquent' too They say that but don't acknowledge any dispute! Has anyone else had the letter below?

 

 

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/allopeeps/Mbnaproceedings191-1.jpg

[citizenB]

They are kind of assuming that they would win in court arent they ?

 

You can sort that letter out by sending the following, suitably amended. ie, change the dates and the list of things they have indicated they can do short of selling your unborn children.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1800199.html

 

Dear Sir,

 

Re :

 

THIS IS A REQUEST UNDER THE CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES.

PLEASE DO NOT IGNORE.

 

I am in receipt of your letter dated 23rd October, this was received on 30th October 2008.

 

You have indicated that

a) You are giving Formal Notice that your client has instructed you to commence court proceedings against me without delay and

b) Papers are now being prepared for commencement of action through my local court to seek a judgement against me.

 

I am sure that you are aware that I have long since requested from your client, under both the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (The Act) and the Data Protection Act 1998, a copy of the agreement to which both you and your client allege I am a signatory. To date this has not been provided to me and whilst I appreciate your client has endeavoured to persuade me that the provision of a copy of an application form is sufficient to discharge your client from further obligations under section 78 of the Act. Likewise I too have explained that the mere provision of a copy of an application form is not a legally permissable substitute for the provision of a true copy of the executed agreement as required under section 78 of the Act and as prescribed by Regulation 3 Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.

 

I am sure you are also aware that under section 78(6) of the Act, whilst a creditor is in default of a request made under sub-section (1) they may not enforce the agreement.

 

Notwithstanding the foregoing and your client's persistent, unexplained and willful refusal to supply a copy of the executed agreement in accordance with its obligations (the permitted ommisions under Regulation 3(2) excepted), your client has made plain its intention to begin legal proceedings against me. In consequence this matter may now be treated as one which is subject to the control of the Civil Procedure Rules.

 

Take notice therefore that under CPR Practice Direction - Protocols paragraph 4.6(a) and (d), I request that you supply copies of the following documents:

 

[1] A true copy of the executed credit agreement incorporating prescribed notices, terms and conditions applicable at the time the agreement was executed and

[2] Any further or subsequent notices, terms and conditions relied upon.

 

Please note that my request under the Practice Direction is not a request for production within the confines of the Act and Regulations but rather, it is for a copy of the executed agreement, including signatures and all such other notices, terms and conditions as will be relied upon in the event that your client shall begin a claim.

 

A copy of the documents I have requested should be supplied to me within 14 days and you are urged not to begin proceedings for a period of not less than 14 days following the supply of those documents to me.

 

Should your client elect to ignore my request under the Practice Direction and commence proceedings, it is likely that I shall repeat my request for the provision of documents under CPR 31.14. In the event that your client should fail to comply with my CPR 31.14 request, I will not hesitate in making an application to the court for an order that further proceedings upon the claim be stayed pending provision of the requisite documents, in the course of which application I will of course refer to this and previous requests for the provision of copy documents.

 

I look forward to hearing from you within the time stated.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

As for information you cant understand. They are obliged to send you a list f the codes they use. If they have and there are still things you dont understand, write to them listing those and ask them to clarify. supasnooper might just be able to help in decyphering some things for you.

[Undercover-Elsa]

Agree there Citizen B about their assumption (great letter template too! )

I cannot believe that letter they sent (quote extracts:)

This WOULD result in the following action:

A County Court Judgement Registered against you (who sez????)

AND THEN one of the following actions (as if it's a foregone conclusion, automatic with no mention of only if you don't pay what the Court Orders..)

Your employer being contacted etc...

A Bailliff.. etc

A Charge on your property etc

 

How VERY dare they! This is so calculated to induce fear, so damn deliberately misleading in stating what will happen, without qualifying under what circumstances, it is obscene, immoral, illegal (and will probably make you fat!! )

Please please send it to the OFT...

Elsa x

[citizenB]

 

 

How VERY dare they! This is so calculated to induce fear, so damn deliberately misleading in stating what will happen, without qualifying under what circumstances, it is obscene, immoral, illegal (and will probably make you fat!! )

Please please send it to the OFT...

Elsa x

 

Then you must exercise some will power and DONT eat it

 

Yes, for those who havent yet found CAG this would possibly be quite frightening.

[ifoughtthelaw]

Ding ding.....Well folks it's showtime. And after seeing last night's Dispatches what a show it's going to be!!

 

OH has now received his first claim for one of his now TWO disputed accounts. The first account posted on here was dubious enough when copy of the CCA received. BUT nothing compared to the hilarious CCA that was sent for his second account. Without saying too much which may harm his defence - let's just say that it compares with banging a square peg into a round hole. They have got it so wrong that it wasn't even worth the post on here. Proof of dodgy CCA provided courtesy of old statements in a dusty box!!

 

So in the words of MBNA's most favourite statement 'for the avoidance of any doubt' we hope to see this one in court as there can be no avoidance of any doubt here. CCA does not belong to this account. Fact.

 

Have started separate thread in the legal section as really want to get the procedure right.

 

Thanks all. Hope you're all doing ok too. Keep focused x