London Underground

[Wriggler7]

Using a ticket by 'mistake' amounts to a defence against the charge of 'intending that the fare be avoided'. (Section 5,3,a Regulation of Railways Act 1889)

 

The problem is whether the evidence 'proves' that it was not a mistake.

 

All 'early guilty pleas' result in a reduction in the sentence, normally a third off.

[mikeldn]

I assume that if they issue a court summons they are satisfied the evidence shows it was intentional.

 

What I mean is, if the offender pleads guilty at the hearing, will the judge ask why they claimed it was a mistake earlier?

[Wriggler7]

Rail fare evasion are 'summary only' offences, and therefore are heard in a Magistrates Court in front of Magistrates, or sometimes a District Judge. (You may hear Court staff talking about a 'DJ', who most certainly will not have twin decks and scratch crucial sounds)

 

Letters to the 'prosecutor' are not normally read to the Court in the event of a guilty plea. Letters to 'the Court' might be. (Note the words 'normally' and 'might')

 

As such, I expect that if you plead guilty to the Court, they will not get to see any of the correspondence that went between you and the railway. Unless you mention it in your letter to the Court. Many times, I have heard 'defendants' say all sorts of interesting stuff about 'I wrote to them, but they took no notice'. Magistrates may well, then, ask the prosecutor about the correspondence.

[mikeldn]

Thanks for the advice. Is it worth getting a solicitor to try and settle? Two said they can do it easily and have done in the past, but one said it will only get them 'excited' and make the matter worse (all local btw)!

There seem to be conflicting views on this forum about admitting guilt to the prosecution. Is it one of the requirements for a settlement or does it make it easier for them to prosecute?

[Wriggler7]

The one certainty is that a solicitor will cost you money.

 

I sugges that you rootle around and find Old Codja's draft letter. I do not advocate admitting guilt, but certainly show that you will be careful in future, offer to pay 'reasonable costs'.

[mikeldn]

Do the magistrates view you more favourably if you turn up to the hearing instead of pleading in writing?

[Old-CodJA]

As a generalisation I would say YES

 

The fact that you have turned out allows for a number of considerations

 

1. You may (if you wish) try a last ditch, face to face request of the prosecutor to accept an alternative disposal. (Out of Court settlement or discontinuation.)

 

2. The Magistrates will be in no doubt that you have taken things seriously, that you have recognised the authority of the Court and whether pleading guilty or not, will take note of that

 

3. If you are pleading guilty with mitigation, you can be questioned by the Bench and MAY benefit by being able to put your explanation yourself rather than relying on someone else reading your words without expression.

 

.

[the_doc]

Don't get confused with 'cautions'. There is the 'caution' that an officer/inspector/investigator is required to give to warn a potential defendant that the questions and answers that are about to happen are going to form part of 'evidence', and then there is the 'Caution' administerd by 'police' to close a case without it going to Court. Such cautions are normally done by officers of Inspector rank, at a Police station, long after the event, and after a decision has been made regarding suitable disposal of the case.

 

Folk are correct to point out that there is no need for prosecution to prove 'mens rea' (guilty mind, or guilty intent depending what school you went to) in a byelaw offence. However, drunkenness as a defence or a mitigation is often 'iffy', it can make the Court see the offence as 'worse', it might not, hence my suggestion for taking advice from a 'local' man.

 

CPS have processes to go through before deciding whether a case is 'in the public interest'. However, there will always be parts of a case which will only seem clear to the prosecutor that made the decision. It may even be that the 'location' has particular problems, and there was pressure for the matter to go to court. We can all speculate, truth is, 'we' don't know.

 

 

Appreicate your advice Wriggler

 

have not been on here as have been trying to relax about it all was getting very uptight

 

My letter is sent in which I have advised that I have had a drink and been dieing for a wee on the tube, then in a moment of madness I have done the deed. I have apolgised to all involved and mentioned how embarassed I am and that I am of previous good character. I have asked that 'due to work commitments' could this pls be dealt with in my absence.

 

I have spoken to the British transport Police and they advise that these issues are normally dealt with in my absence but I am not sure how much I can trust that advice , after all they are the prosecution she seemsed a genuine woman though.

 

I ahve been generally advised that these things can depend a lot on the 'mood' of the magistrate at the time.

 

If I go it may cause issues at work in that they may need to know why I am going and in that I am covering for others at the moment so will not go down well (what I am saying is my reasosn for not going are legitimate)

 

I have not spoken to a local man as cant find a decent affordable one to be honest. One option iof I go is to consult the suty solicator although not sure what advice he can give me on the day ?

 

Am I going abut this the right way guys I sure hope so

 

also so the mag does want to see me what will happen I will be summons ata later date ? and is it likely this will end up costing me more?

 

very confused and just want this over with

[the_doc]

it was actually wall in ladies toilet so admittedly not nice at all

 

see my reply to wriggler sorry for reposting..

 

Appreicate your advice Wriggler

 

have not been on here as have been trying to relax about it all was getting very uptight

 

My letter is sent in which I have advised that I have had a drink and been dieing for a wee on the tube, then in a moment of madness I have done the deed. I have apolgised to all involved and mentioned how embarassed I am and that I am of previous good character. I have asked that 'due to work commitments' could this pls be dealt with in my absence.

 

I have spoken to the British transport Police and they advise that these issues are normally dealt with in my absence but I am not sure how much I can trust that advice , after all they are the prosecution she seemsed a genuine woman though.

 

I ahve been generally advised that these things can depend a lot on the 'mood' of the magistrate at the time.

 

If I go it may cause issues at work in that they may need to know why I am going and in that I am covering for others at the moment so will not go down well (what I am saying is my reasosn for not going are legitimate)

 

I have not spoken to a local man as cant find a decent affordable one to be honest. One option iof I go is to consult the suty solicator although not sure what advice he can give me on the day ?

 

Am I going abut this the right way guys I sure hope so

 

also so the mag does want to see me what will happen I will be summons ata later date ? and is it likely this will end up costing me more?

 

very confused and just want this over with

[the_doc]

As a generalisation I would say YES

 

The fact that you have turned out allows for a number of considerations

 

1. You may (if you wish) try a last ditch, face to face request of the prosecutor to accept an alternative disposal. (Out of Court settlement or discontinuation.)

 

2. The Magistrates will be in no doubt that you have taken things seriously, that you have recognised the authority of the Court and whether pleading guilty or not, will take note of that

 

3. If you are pleading guilty with mitigation, you can be questioned by the Bench and MAY benefit by being able to put your explanation yourself rather than relying on someone else reading your words without expression.

 

.

 

 

Old Codja I have already sent my letter re my breach of byelaw, but am now thinking of somehow showing up anyway , if I can get the time off.

[Wriggler7]

The majority of cases like this are dealt with in the absence of the defendant.

 

Duty solicitor is likely to refuse to advise you, the 'scheme' does not cover 'minor' matters.

 

The 'mood' of the Magistrates does make a difference, but they have sentencing guidelines, and their 'mood' is much less influential than it was 30 years ago.

 

From your general tone, I think if you go along, the Court will see your contrition and embarrassment. It is possible that they might award a discharge, conditional or absolute, but nothing is ever certain until the Bench announce verdict and sentence.

 

Trust me, it will not be the worst case before them on the day. Nobody died, there is no huge financial implication. It is commendable that you are embarrassed, but please keep some perspective!

[the_doc]

'It is possible that they might award a discharge, conditional or absolute, but nothing is ever certain until the Bench announce verdict and sentence'

 

Even though I plead guilty I may not be found so? Please explain how and why a conditional/absoulte discharge may be awarded and the implications of such a thing.

 

Also am I obliged to speak before sentencing? and is there anything I can plead I may not be aware if.

 

A part of me is relaxed but another part of me is thinking ' what a silly bu**er' to get yourself into such a situaution

[SRPO]

If you attend the hearing you can ask the bench to consider giving you a conditional discharge instead of a fine due to your previous good charactor , contrition & embarrassment.

If you do not attend they can only impose a fine.

You will be guided by the legal advisor on the order things happen, they will be sympathetic to you if you are unrepresented.

[the_doc]

If you attend the hearing you can ask the bench to consider giving you a conditional discharge instead of a fine due to your previous good charactor , contrition & embarrassment.

If you do not attend they can only impose a fine.

You will be guided by the legal advisor on the order things happen, they will be sympathetic to you if you are unrepresented.

 

Can you please advise what a conditional discharge actually constitutes, what form would it take.

 

What in effect it means

[Old-CodJA]

It means that the Court file would show that you pleaded guilty / were convicted of the offence, but were not punished at the time other than being required not to offend again within the next 12 months or time specified.

 

If you were to offend again during the time specified by the Court and were convicted of an offence, you could then be punished both for the new offence and the original one.

 

If given a conditional discharge you might still be ordered to pay something toward the prosecution costs, but that would be wholly at the discretion of the Court.

 

My feelings were summed up by this quote from Wriggler7:

 

"From your general tone, I think if you go along, the Court will see your contrition and embarrassment. It is possible that they might award a discharge, conditional or absolute, but nothing is ever certain until the Bench announce verdict and sentence."

[the_doc]

ah so a discharge is still a conviction, so the only real benefit is in my wallet

[SRPO]

ah so a discharge is still a conviction, so the only real benefit is in my wallet

 

Yes it is, however any potential employer will look more favourably at a ConDis than a fine as its considered to be a lesser punishment.

[the_doc]

Yes it is, however any potential employer will look more favourably at a ConDis than a fine as its considered to be a lesser punishment.

 

I am reliably advised by more than one source that this breach of bye law is non recordable, fingers crossed whatever happens my job and future job prospects are not effected

[SRPO]

I am reliably advised by more than one source that this breach of bye law is non recordable, fingers crossed whatever happens my job and future job prospects are not effected

 

Byelaws are non-recordable, however if you are asked if you have any convictions you must declare them or face dismissal for gross misconduct or even prosecution. (Check the Rehabilitation Of Offenders Act for qualifying time scale).

[mikeldn]

 

1. You may (if you wish) try a last ditch, face to face request of the prosecutor to accept an alternative disposal. (Out of Court settlement or discontinuation.)

 

.

 

How can you do that? Do you get to see the prosecutor before the hearing? Also do you present the mitigation before or after pleading?

[Old-CodJA]

How can you do that? Do you get to see the prosecutor before the hearing? Also do you present the mitigation before or after pleading?

 

Yes, in the Magistrates Court if you ask to speak to the prosecutor before your case is called on you will get a chance to do so

 

He or she may not be able to agree an alternative disposal, but sometimes, according to individual circumstances, may be able to.

 

.

[the_doc]

Yes, in the Magistrates Court if you ask to speak to the prosecutor before your case is called on you will get a chance to do so

 

He or she may not be able to agree an alternative disposal, but sometimes, according to individual circumstances, may be able to.

 

.

 

 

would my circumstances allow such a request Old-Cadja from what I have revealed? i have been wondering what would have happened if I had contacted the BTP straight after the incident in that would it have gone as far as court.

[Old-CodJA]

would my circumstances allow such a request Old-Cadja from what I have revealed? i have been wondering what would have happened if I had contacted the BTP straight after the incident in that would it have gone as far as court.

 

Any defendant in any case of a summary offence of this type listed for hearing at a Magistrates Court can ask the prosecutor that question.

 

The worst he or she can say is 'No' and you are exactly where you were when you walked in the door.

 

.

[the_doc]

Any defendant in any case of a summary offence of this type listed for hearing at a Magistrates Court can ask the prosecutor that question.

 

The worst he or she can say is 'No' and you are exactly where you were when you walked in the door.

 

.

 

 

interesting

 

and this would not show on any court record I take it?

[Old-CodJA]

Yes, on those occasions that a case is settled like this, the prosecutor would apply to withdraw the case from Court.