London Underground

[DrummerBoy84]

Thanks for the swift reply.

 

It's complicated, but basically I was in Sustainable transport/School Travel, and thanks to Borris the entire team at TFL I dealt with got made redundant so I can't get an "official" letter from them. Also it's national rail who are prosecuting and not TFL.

[Grotesque]

I know I have done nothing wrong

 

...except being 'caught' with a cancelled (invalid) ticket.

 

You picked the wrong one up; your are knowledgeable and experienced enough 'in the industry' to know it is madness to attempt such a thing as avoid an Oyster fare, cheap as they are; and that it is through your own (therefore potentially implicitly honest) actions (of querying the ATG error code) that you were caught.

 

At the end of the day of course, it's about mitigation rather than denial; unfortunately you were caught in the act of doing something which legally can- and maybe should be!- 'prosecuted to the full extent of the law'.

 

However the specific issue you raise about cancelled cards is certainly interesting although beyond my remit- the fact that you have potential evidence of a flaw (if it is a flaw) that TfL do not want publicised in what is ultimately an open Court may or may not may them consider a financial settlement rather than prosecution....

 

....good luck.

[mikeldn]

Calling all the experts:

 

What is the typical and maximum sentence in a trial for 'intent to avoid a fare' if you plead not guilty and lose?

Can you plead guilty in a trial - there was an earlier thread where someone's guilty plea was rejected by the magistrates?

[Grotesque]

Thanks for the swift reply.

 

It's complicated, but basically I was in Sustainable transport/School Travel, and thanks to Borris the entire team at TFL I dealt with got made redundant so I can't get an "official" letter from them. Also it's national rail who are prosecuting and not TFL.

 

So Boris paid for his f***ing bikes with your jobs?

 

W***er.

 

 

On edit: Sorry, no politics or religion. It's been a long day

[Wriggler7]

'If you plead not guilty and lose', the potential fines, on a first offence charged under Section 5,3,a (or b, depending on the 'evidence') will start with the Magistrates looking at your weekly income. The fine is described as 'Band B'.

 

If you are paid £1,000.00 a week, your fine would be higher than if you are paid £300.00 a week.

 

The Court would also take into account any 'aggravating features', if there are any, the fine goes up, if there are clear mitigating features, the fine goes down.

 

In short, until the Chairman of the Magistrates sitting that day announces it, none of us know what the fine will be. If you consider the fine excessive, you can take the case to a Crown Court, and appeal against sentence.

 

However, if this story is accurate, there seems to be a defence against the charge. The Oyster card should show a record that it was 'topped up' and then 'tapped in'. The charge (5,3,a) specifies 'without previously paying the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof'.

 

The prosecution will have a print of the Oyster history, on a 'not guilty plea', prosecution have to make 'full disclosure' of the evidence, including that which tends to undermine their case. At the time of making a not guilty plea, the defendant needs to give a brief explanation why they feel 'not guilty', and should make a request for full disclosure. (Request is not needed, the prosecution have a duty to make the disclosure, but 'being thorough' is always a good idea)

 

What bothers me slightly is the thought that prosecution might consider, whether they charge it or not, that all these Oysters that you mention are, in effect, 'stolen'. Before a professional will give 'full' advice, I think that he/she would want a frank discussion of the type that would not be 'proper' in an open forum.

[qood]

I was caught not touching-in my oyster card on the open-gate London Overground train. I wonder when should I start contact the TFL Procecutors Office to apologise and 'beg' for a out of court settlement. I wasn't given any paper work after the incident. please anyone can let me know what is their address?

 

I did a stupid thing and feel very thick to ask for help here, but never thought this could go beyond a penalty fare. I do regret and I lost sleep last night.

[Stigy]

I was caught not touching-in my oyster card on the open-gate London Overground train. I wonder when should I start contact the TFL Procecutors Office to apologise and 'beg' for a out of court settlement. I wasn't given any paper work after the incident. please anyone can let me know what is their address?

 

I did a stupid thing and feel very thick to ask for help here, but never thought this could go beyond a penalty fare. I do regret and I lost sleep last night.

You need to wait for TfL to contact you first, unless they already have done. Once you receive their letter you'll know exactly what it is they're prosecuting you for, and have the opportunity to put your case to them. If they have yet to contact you, and you try and contact them first, the likelyhood is that they'll not have a clue who you are, and wont be able to help you, especially so if the RPI hasn't submit his/her statement yet!

 

Also, why remind them of the incident?

[honeybee13]

Hello again Scared. I just noticed you on another thread having a rant. You still seem to have at least 2 identical posts here and maybe the other 2 as well, so I've asked the site team to do an edit for you.

 

You sound as if you're in free fall from your last post, are you OK? I'm wondering if you've told your parents about the problem. Have you had a look for a possible template letter to send as I suggested earlier?

 

HB

[MARTIN3030]

Moved the dup from this thread.Will take a look for the other.

[Old-CodJA]

....., if this story is accurate, there seems to be a defence against the charge. The Oyster card should show a record that it was 'topped up' and then 'tapped in'. The charge (5,3,a) specifies 'without previously paying the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof'.

 

The prosecution will have a print of the Oyster history, on a 'not guilty plea', prosecution have to make 'full disclosure' of the evidence, including that which tends to undermine their case. At the time of making a not guilty plea, the defendant needs to give a brief explanation why they feel 'not guilty', and should make a request for full disclosure. (Request is not needed, the prosecution have a duty to make the disclosure, but 'being thorough' is always a good idea)

 

What bothers me slightly is the thought that prosecution might consider, whether they charge it or not, that all these Oysters that you mention are, in effect, 'stolen'. Before a professional will give 'full' advice, I think that he/she would want a frank discussion of the type that would not be 'proper' in an open forum.

 

I agree with Wriggler7 on this one. You need to have a frank discussion with the prosecution office staff and may need to take legal advice in respect of a defence.

 

If these Oysters were issued as a facility of your former employment and were cancelled when that was terminated, they should have been returned to TfL or destroyed.

 

I agree that it seems as though 'intent to avoid payment' would on the face of it, appear difficult to prove if your explanation is accurate, but this is much more complicated given that you do not appear to have any entitlement to hold the special type of Oyster that you were attempting to use.

 

I suggest that you immediately notify the prosecution that you are seeking legal advice and intend to contest the matter, but as Wriggler7 says, it is very difficult to offer any more specific advice than that. There are a great many issues to look at here and comments that could be made, but it would not be sensible to attempt to explore the case further here.

 

I believe that because you have already received a Summons, this is one of those cases where you do need expert advice and need to speak with the prosecutor promptly.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[SRPO]

I think the key to this is that the 'cardholder' reported the card as lost & it was hotlisted by TFL.

Although PAYG cards are transferrable, the 'cardholders' permission is needed for another to use it.

It is very difficult to give any useful advice without knowing what is contained within the interview under caution.

[SRPO]

Sounds like the card had been hotlisted by TFL due to it being reported lost by the owner.

Without knowing what was said during the interview it is very difficult to give any useful advice.

[Wriggler7]

There seem to be several 'concurrent' threads running here, so some general things:

 

'We' often advise that people wait for a letter from the 'prosecutor' before people do anything. One of the reasons for this is that until you do, you might not know who is prosecuting you!

 

If it was 'London Overground' staff that dealt with the alleged offence, it may be that you will get a letter from 'LOROL' prosecutions, who are (I think) based at Camden Road. If you alighted from a London Overground train at somewhere like Barking, and were spoken to by an Inspector, the case could be dealt with by c2c, who operate the station, London Overground, London Underground, British Transport Police or even Metropolitan Police. (Police will pass the prosecution work to the Crown Prosecution Service)

 

Each of these bodies deal with thousands of cases a year, and waiting for 'first contact' from them will supply you with a reference number and an address to write to.

 

If you are interviewed by (for example) a c2c Rail Inspector at Barking, he/she can report you for offences committed on 'the underground', but cannot issue a penalty fare unless the journey was clearly made only on a c2c service.

[Wriggler7]

Another 'question' in this thread relates to 'levels of fines' at Court. Yesterday, I sat through a very dreary list of railway byelaw offences at Basildon Magistrates. the 'cheapest' result was an absolute discharge, which surprised all of us, the defendant behaved quite badly in Court, and I was rather expecting a financial penalty, through to a fine of £195.00 (plus costs, £65.00, plus compensation, £5.20 plus £15.00 victim surcharge.)

 

There were some very odd amounts fined, some of the guilty pleas were fined £17.00, some of the 'proved in absence' cases were fine £88.00 and some £123.00. (All plus costs, compensation and victim surcharge) I am sure that there was a logic, but please don't ask me what that logic was.

[Wriggler7]

Incidentally, there was a reporter from the local paper in Court, encouraged to be there by one of the prosecuting authorities. Like me, she was obliged to sit through the whole day, as the cases that she wanted to here were evenly distributed through the list. She may write about all of the cases heard in open Court, including all the 'train fare' cases. The only case heard yesterday with reporting restrictions was a 'fail to send kid to school case', the restriction being in place to prevent the child from being 'identified'. All of the other cases can be reported in the press.

 

In two cases, the prosecuting authority will be making specific reports to other agencies. One was a licensed taxi driver, convicted of fraudulent claims for housing benefit. A report will be sent to the taxi licensing people, the other was a pub landlord convicted of failing to make deductions from earnings in respect of CSA orders, who will be reported to the local 'alcohol' licensing authority, in that case, the Borough Council.

[saraheve]

Hi!

Hope someone can help me....

I have been sent a fine from a London court of £485. It says I can pay it either by calling 03007909901 or directgov . uk / payacourtfine. I'm guessing I must have missed the previous letters because this letter is titled "Further steps notice"(threatning with certain actions if not payed in 10 days) and this is the first letter I've recieved! I live in a hostel so letters might get lost...but this is crazy.

 

The only thing I can think of that might have lead to this is me getting caught in the underground. Last year for a freedom ticket and this year for a child ticket. Both times I gave different adresses because I have been moving around a lot, so how they got my new adress I do not know at all.

 

Is this the normal procedure, sending out a court fine letter?

[Stigy]

Hi!

Hope someone can help me....

I have been sent a fine from a London court of £485. It says I can pay it either by calling 03007909901 or directgov . uk / payacourtfine. I'm guessing I must have missed the previous letters because this letter is titled "Further steps notice"(threatning with certain actions if not payed in 10 days) and this is the first letter I've recieved! I live in a hostel so letters might get lost...but this is crazy.

 

The only thing I can think of that might have lead to this is me getting caught in the underground. Last year for a freedom ticket and this year for a child ticket. Both times I gave different adresses because I have been moving around a lot, so how they got my new adress I do not know at all.

 

Is this the normal procedure, sending out a court fine letter?

It sounds as though there was a case heard in your absence, and you were subsequently found guilty. The initial fine might not have been £485. Sounds fairly normal to me, yes.

[SRPO]

If you were unaware of the court proceedings you should visit you local court (take the letter) and make a Statutory Declaration.

This is you taking the oath in the witness box & stating you didnt know about the proceedings, however you must be truthful or the consequences can far outweigh a train ticket conviction.

[saraheve]

If you were unaware of the court proceedings you should visit you local court (take the letter) and make a Statutory Declaration.

This is you taking the oath in the witness box & stating you didnt know about the proceedings, however you must be truthful or the consequences can far outweigh a train ticket conviction.

 

How can they find out if someone is lying or not in regards to not recieving paperwork? Would they see it as lying if someone states an adress when interviewed by revenue officer but then moves? Then almost 2yrs later makes a statutory declaration?

[saraheve]

How can you get a hold of the evidence they have against you? The inspectors notes that you signed?

Does it matter if the are 2yrs old? Do they still have them?

Edited December 15, 2010 by saraheve

[Ochola90]

Hi I need help/advice on this situation last month I was in a rush to go university in the morning i had a very early exam I had my oyster card and my little brothers under 14 oyster card in my pocket once getting to the station i heard a train coming and swiped through in a rush with the 1st oyster card i pulled out of my pocket which unfortunately was my brothers instead of my student oyster card. Anyways I got stopped by a ticket inspector i informed the inspector it was mistake i tried telling him i completely forget that my brother oyster card was in my pocket and it wasnt intending on using it. I had my own oyster card with a weeks pass on it. Anyways the inspector took my details down and said i would be reported for fare evasion. As i was in a massive rush i didnt sign the piece of paper he gave me on the day so I just went on my way. Anyways i got a letter through this week saying i can either pay the £60 fine or get a summons going to court. Technically i was in the wrong but i want to go court and fight this case seeing as i didnt sign the piece of paper on the day i think i have a really good chance in court for the basis that they wouldnt be able to prove it was me on the day. I know it may sound stupid but i want to challenge TFL prosecution case. Ive never been in trouble with them before it was a genuine mistake i do realise if i lose the court case then i will face a bigger fine and possibly a criminal conviction (One which i didnt possibly want or need) but i refuse to accept im guility and pay a joke of a fine for a genuine mistake. I just wanted to ask peoples views what do you reckon i should do? Your help and views will be much appreciated thank you.

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG. A question that occurs to me, playing devil's advocate, is why you were carrying your brother's Oyster card?

 

HB

[Ochola90]

Oh my brother borrowed my jacket couple days before the incident left his oyster in there. On the door of the incident i didnt bother checking what was in my jacket pocket

[Wriggler7]

Throughout history, people have suggested that they do not consider themselves guilty. I won't say that your views don't matter, but they certainly do not matter as much as the views that a Magistrates Bench may take, and the (potential) fine is not a 'joke', and, should the worst happen, refusing to pay a court imposition is not a good thing to do just before Christmas.

 

In the first instance, taken collectively, the various laws and 'precedent cases' have long ago established that the passenger must ensure that the correct fare has been paid.

 

I, too, am rather curious about why you had your younger brother's card, one which just happens to allow cheaper or even free travel. Professionally, I will choose to believe your explanation, but I would suggest that I am probably in a minority.

[Grotesque]

Welcome too.

 

Just to clarify, is the basis of your 'defence' against TfL's allegation (apart from it being an accident) that you didn't sign the statement or notebook?

 

If so, it is irrelevant I'm afraid; you're not legally obliged to sign it (or indeed, stay and be interviewed) but failure to do either may appear to the Prosecutor that you were being unco-operative and therefore more likely to be guilty of the alleged offence. Which then would stiffen their resolve to take it all the way to court rather than 'settling'.

TfL process (successfully) literally thousands of prosecutions a year; imagine if it was all just as easy as not signning a statement to over-turn the charge?

 

It is the actions you are accused of before the statement is taken that are being prosecuted, not what happens after the statement is taken.

 

Devil's advocate again , here I'm afraid

 

Good luck!

Edited December 15, 2010 by Grotesque
...beaten to it by W7 !!!