London Underground

[jackiebuchanan1]

Hi there

 

Oh dear what a terrible mess! Did you get your American driving licence back?

 

The post is on strike I am still waiting for my reply. However, I think they may just give your friend the 'sack' and not bother too much about you.

My advice is don't write a letter of apology it will only incriminate you further; just wait and see what happens to your friend on his return. He may not be your friend any longer but that's his call - he told you to lie.

 

I know waiting is agony but I think its the best thing to do here. For yourself it could go 2 ways, most likely they will be satisfied with disciplining your friend but don't bank on that, they could prosecute you too.

 

If they do you may have to get the advice of a lawyer or you couold get some now as some of them give free 30 minute sessions.

 

Let us know how it goes and good luck!

 

Jackie

[Old-CodJA]

 

My advice is don't write a letter of apology it will only incriminate you further; just wait and see what happens to your friend on his return. He may not be your friend any longer but that's his call - he told you to lie.

 

For yourself it could go 2 ways, most likely they will be satisfied with disciplining your friend but don't bank on that, they could prosecute you too.

Jackie

 

In my experience apologising does not incriminate anyone further. The evidence necessary to prosecute was is already gathered.

 

The person using the transferred pass and therefore avoiding the fare is the one most likely to face action although it would also be possible to take action against the person who provided it.

 

I have already made clear to the OP what I think the she should do.

[jackiebuchanan1]

Hi Old-CodJA

 

you are right of course; apologising doesn't do any harm but a letter that isn't properly written, a letter that tries to explain may be used against someone and could be a hindrance, perhaps. I am a civil litigator not a criminal one but I think a free 30 minute advice session from a criminal litigator might be useful. I was just putting my thoughts to paper in case they helped, I didn't mean to 'tread on anyone's toes'. Sorry if I've unwittingly done that.

Regards

 

Jackie

[UNDERGROUND]

Worldismyoyster

 

Old-CodJA has provided you with sound advice.

 

Your friend may not be issued a new Staff Pass, fraudulent use is taken seriously by LT Staff Travel and the manager there is passionate about withdrawing the facility if abused.

 

Your friend is also involved in transferring and aiding and abetting offences but it is unlikely (but not impossible) that these will be pursued.

 

As Old-CodJA said it does appear that you did indeed realise the use of the pass was not legitimate as you had been told to lie 'should anything happen'. I think it is reasonable to assume that this should have started alarm bells ringing and the use of the pass was to avoid paying your fare.

 

Wait until you receive a letter from LU before you write to them.

 

I think you should stop panicking until you know what LU's intentions are.

 

Re-post when you have heard from them.

 

Regards

UNDERGROUND

[jackiebuchanan1]

Hi there

 

talking about waiting to see what happens, I have not heard from LU regarding my letter. This could be because of the post strike I suppose but if they have sent it and I don't receive it will I automatically get fined £50? Should I phone them to ask if there has been a decision made or should I leave it?

I don't want to have to pay £50.

 

Thanks

 

Jackie

[Old-CodJA]

It may seem slow, but your original post makes clear that this occurred on 27th September and that is just 14 days ago. The postal strike will be having an effect and I'm sure that the appeals office will also be making allowances.

 

Your appeal has been made within the 21 day period and that means the fee payable should be frozen at £25.00 until your appeal has been responded to.

[jackiebuchanan1]

Hi Old-CodJA

 

I just wanted to let you know that I had a letter today to say that I would not have to pay the penalty fare.

Thank you for your support and common sense advice and thank you on behalf of everyone who you support on this forum. You're a real help

 

Best wishes

 

Jackie

[Old-CodJA]

Hi Old-CodJA

 

I just wanted to let you know that I had a letter today to say that I would not have to pay the penalty fare.

Thank you for your support and common sense advice and thank you on behalf of everyone who you support on this forum. You're a real help

 

Best wishes

 

Jackie

 

Dear Jackie,

 

Thank you for your kind comment

 

I'm genuinely please that this worked out well for you

 

Regards

[locotoro]

Hi guys/girls,I posted on here a few weeks ago.I had my own little episode with TFL and the prosecutions office for using my fathers card.I wrote 2 letters pleading my innocence and i've been told that my case is proceeding to prosecution. The offence is "travelling on the underground with the intention to avoid paying". I am entirely innocent of this offence and thus I pleaded not guilty.I have spent thousands of pounds over the last few years using oyster season ticket loans and monthly passes and what not. On the one day that I make an honest mistake in taking the wrong card to work I am stopped and treated like a criminal. This is not on. I'm a young man and I have a good career ahead of me. I am told by my my colleagues that this will not have too much of a detrimental effect on me but I will not bow to the threats of TFL.I have a whole bundle of evidence ready to put forward to show my innocence and we'll see how it turns our in court. I pay my fees and I am a law abiding citizen, and im sick and tired with TFL providing a crappy service for the money i pay out and now try to make me out to be a criminal for something which is an honest mistake.The only argument they are able to put forward as to why they wont settle is that the value of the card is of a high nature. But I am trying to explain to them the value of the card is irrelevant as i had no intention to avoid paying fare. It was an honest mistake and there is something seriously wrong with the system if they cant see that.sorry, rant over.

[jackiebuchanan1]

Hi there

 

have you got your own travel card for the same time as they stopped you?

That may be a good piece of evidence to back up your defence.

Best of luck

 

Jackie

[Old-CodJA]

Hi there

 

have you got your own travel card for the same time as they stopped you?

That may be a good piece of evidence to back up your defence.

Best of luck

 

Jackie

 

Jackie, you are spot-on

 

It will be the only piece of evidence that really matters in making such a claim.

[locotoro]

I do have my own oyster card but i'm faced with the problem that now that i have requested my balance from Tfl for that time period in March and a history of my travel from the time predating that as evidence that I always used my own card they have told me that they cannot provide it because they only keep a record of maximum of 12 weeks.This has made me quite annoyed, the whole process has been left for almost a week short of 6 months and TFL do not have the records that would provide a defence for me.Any suggestions?Apologies for yesterday's rant, it wasnt a great day and I had just read about red ken's tfl incident of which he got off with a bit of publicity and a pat on the back.

[Old-CodJA]

I'm sorry if my contribution seems less than helpful for you, but I hope it will be of some use to you in Court.

 

Firstly, you say 'the whole process has been left for almost a week short of 6 months'.

 

That just isn't possible if you have a Court date now set.

 

You must have had earlier correspondence, why didn't you seek the information from Oyster records earlier?

 

There is a strict liability requirement under railway Byelaws to produce a valid ticket on demand.

 

The questions that are likely to be asked by the Prosecutor will include:

 

'Did you present a valid ticket for inspection when asked?' The answer is 'No'. You might argue that your father's ticket was valid and in date, but the fact is that it isn't valid for you to use.

 

'Can you produce a valid ticket showing that you had paid your fare on that day?' Well I suggest you have already answered that one.

 

'Do you agree that the ticket you presented as valid for travel was not your own?'

 

Assuming that the ticket you refer to was either a Freedom Pass or Season ticket with photo identity, these questions may also be asked.

 

'Do you agree that the ticket, which you tendered for travel is bears a photograph and is clearly endorsed as valid only for use by the person to whom it was issued'

 

'Why, if not to avoid a fare, were you carrying and using a ticket that was expressly issued for the sole use of another person?'

 

and finally,

 

'Do you agree that if you had not been questioned, you would have used the pass that did not belong to you and would therefore have failed to pay your fare?'

 

Those are just a few of the questions that the Magistrates will be asked to consider the answers to.

 

I hope that helps

[Gribbly]

Hi All,

 

Firstly thanks to Underground, SRPO and Old CodJA for all the useful info on here.

 

Having read all the posts my daughters situation is a little different in that I believe NO offence or intent was committed.

 

She started at King's College in September and we had registered for her Student Oystercard in advance ( we would have bought and paid for it in advance but it can't be done without proof of uni registration, letter of acceptance not being sufficient.)

 

On her first day in London (19/09/2009) she went in to register and went to the ticket office to buy her ticket. She explained she was a student and was going in to register and would be getting a student oystercard once she was able. The ticket officer gave her a ticket and she boarded the tube.

 

On the way in she was asked for her ticket which she presented. The ticket officer had given her a childs ticket which she was unaware of. The officers arrested her read her her rights and escorted her off the tube. They confiscated her ticket interviewed her, whereupon she explained all the circumstances, they took all her details and said they would be writing to her. They then made her buy an adult ticket and escorted on the train to her destination.

 

She now has a valid student oystercard which she has been using since.

 

On Friday she received a Formal warning letter, fining her £60 and a form which she is to sign agreeing to the offence of intent to avoid payment in order to avoid a criminal record. Incidently this was dated 25th so she has a week to respond within the 14 day period of the later.

 

So the way I see it she is not guilty of intent, she bought a ticket at the office having asked the ticket officers advice. Therefore the fault lies with TfL, the contract was made at point of sale and the officers who arrested her acted illegally in taking her ticket from her. As she was sold an invalid ticket the contract was broken by TfL and not by my daughter.

 

The fine is neither here nor there but the acceptance of guilt and the principal of injustice is, not to mention the stress and anguish it caused on her first day in London and her first time away from home. She has never been in any trouble before and is an exemplary individual.

 

So basically, what is the best way to proceed? Should she just pay the £60 and swallow the bile of injustice or should we fight it?

 

Thanks,

 

Gribbly

[jackiebuchanan1]

That is a really sad story. My son has just started uni in York, we live in London, and if a thing like this had happened my empty nest syndrome would have been even worse.

I would probably fight the cause especially as you live outside of London but Old CodJA will be able to advise you better than I can. I don't know why the fine is £60, seems a bit strange, I thought it was £25.

I really hope it works out well for your daughter.

Best wishes

Jackie

[Old-CodJA]

Hi All,

 

1. Having read all the posts my daughters situation is a little different in that I believe NO offence or intent was committed.

 

2. She started at King's College in September

 

3. She explained she was a student and was going in to register and would be getting a student oystercard once she was able. The ticket officer gave her a ticket and she boarded the tube.

 

4. On the way in she was asked for her ticket which she presented. The ticket officer had given her a childs ticket which she was unaware of.

 

5. The officers arrested her read her her rights and escorted her off the tube. They confiscated her ticket interviewed her,

 

6. They then made her buy an adult ticket and escorted on the train to her destination. She now has a valid student oystercard which she has been using since.

 

7. On Friday she received a Formal warning letter, fining her £60 and a form which she is to sign agreeing to the offence of intent to avoid payment in order to avoid a criminal record.

 

8. So the way I see it she is not guilty of intent, she bought a ticket at the office having asked the ticket officers advice. Therefore the fault lies with TfL, the contract was made at point of sale and the officers who arrested her acted illegally in taking her ticket from her. As she was sold an invalid ticket the contract was broken by TfL and not by my daughter.

 

Gribbly

 

HI GRIBBLY, I HAVE EDITED DOWN THE OP TO THE MAIN POINTS THAT NEED ANSWERING AND HAVE NUMBERED THEM FOR EASE OF REFERENCE

 

OK, once again, I guess I'm going to start by saying that my reply is probably not what you want to hear, but please bear with me.

 

1. There is evidence of an offence in your posting.

 

2. You don't say how old your daughter is, but I guess that she is over 18.

 

3. You say that 'she explained that she is a student and the ticket officer 'gave' her a ticket. What ticket did your daughter ask for?

 

4. You say that 'the ticket had given her a child's ticket, which she was unaware of'. Firstly, the default setting on ticket machines is 'Adult - single' and a deliberate change has to be made to get a 'child rate' ticket out of the machine, which is why I ask the question at 3 and secondly, any child rate ticket has the indication that it is 'Child' fare printed on it. It is always the responsibility of the traveller to check that the ticket they have purchased is valid for their intended journey.

 

5. You say that 'the officers arrested her' and 'read her her rights'. Intent to avoid a fare is NOT an arrestable offence except in a specific set of circumstances. To affect an arrest for fare evasion in accordance with Section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act (1889) the traveller must have committed all of the following acts:

 

a) failed to show a valid ticket,

b) Failed to pay the correct fare on demand

and

3) failed or refused to give their name and address.

 

The reference to 'read her rights' is a little misleading, but less of a concern. The saying 'read his/her rights' in this instance is American terminology, in this country the suspected offender will be cautioned in accordance with the requirements of The Police & Criminal Evidence Act (1984).

 

6. You say they 'made her buy an adult ticket'. I guess that you may consider this a reason why she could not be charged with 'intent to avoid a fare', but that is not so. The Act referred to actually says 'If any person travels or, attempts to travel......' and goes on to say 'having not previously paid' their correct fare. The purchase of a ticket after being reported does not prevent action being taken.

 

7. The letter received is NOT a fine. Magistrates set fines. This will be the train operator offering an administrative penalty, which the traveller may agree to pay as an alternative to receiving a Summons alleging the charge of 'intent to avoid a fare'. There is no obligation on any traveller to pay that settlement sum. You may go to Court and argue your case.

 

This is not to be confused with a Penalty Fare, which is £50.00, but can be reduced to £25.00 if paid within 21 days

 

8. I understand your assertion that you do not believe that your daughter is guilty of intent. However, the assertion that the fault lies with TfL is not correct. It is always the travellers responsibility to check their ticket is valid, but I accept that there is a case to say she was informed by staff, if that is so.

 

The officers will have acted illegally in making an arrest IF that is actually what happened. It is important to note that I am not saying your I don't believe this, but was your daughter actually told 'You are under arrest'?

 

A traveller who is asked to alight from a train whilst an inspector investigates an apparent ticket irregularity is not under arrest. (I do accept that view might be deemed to change if the investigation takes an inordinately long time or, if the traveller is actually prevented from leaving the railway.)

 

The rail staff did NOT 'act illegally in taking her ticket from her'.

All rail tickets remain the property of the rail company at all times and may be withdrawn at any time where any irregular use is suspected.

 

As I made clear at the beginning here, the alleged 'offence' is committed by the person using the ticket.

 

Having hopefully taken a bit of the emotion out of this and explained the position from the prosecutor's viewpoint, let's now look at the facts again:

 

Did your 18 year old daughter ask for a child rate ticket?

(The answer to this one might prove quite easy to check with the booking office.)

 

Was your daughter actually arrested?

 

If so, was this because of factors not mentioned in your original post?

 

If not and if she was actually placed under arrest, then she has a case for complaint.

 

If she was 'formally placed under arrest' and had not committed any of the acts that I referred to earlier, she should make a formal written complaint immediately. If she is over 18 she should do that herself, you could write any letter for her, but she should sign it of course.

 

 

 

Hope that helps

Edited October 31, 2009 by Old-CodJA

[Gribbly]

Hi Old-CodJA and thanks for your reply, thought I'd check emails before bed,

 

I have spoken with my daughter this evening and just to clarify the points.

 

My daughter is 18. She DID NOT buy the ticket at a machine, she went to the ticket office at Finchley Road and Frognal. She didn't ask for any specific ticket. She asked the ticket officers advice and explained she was a student. The ticket officer asked her how old she was and she replied she was 18. He then gave her the ticket fully aware of her age.

 

Can I just point out this was the first time she had ever bought a tube ticket herself, on the rare occasion that we have visited London before, myself or my wife has always bought the tickets for the famiy. She thought she was doing the best thing by asking for advice from a member of staff.

 

When she was stopped on the tube she gave the officers her ticket and they asked how old she was and she replied she was 18. It was only when they pointed out she had a childs ticket that she became aware of it.

 

You are correct she wasn't arrested, she thought she had been, but she was cautioned before being interviewed. Yes they did confiscate the ticket and yes she did have to buy an adult fare ticket.

 

You are also correct in that it is not a fine, she has been asked to pay £60 to cover administration costs and to admit the alleged offence in writing.

 

Since my previous post I have read the TfL prosecution policy and do I understand correctly that a verification letter should have been sent giving her the opportunity to reply with extenuating circumstances. She certainly has not received one although the officers did say they she would hear from them in writing within 5 days. This formal warning letter is the first correspondance she has had.

 

So my question still remains, why should she have to admit liability and pay for incorrect advice and an incorrect ticket issued by a member of TfL's staff?

 

I dispute that there was intent to evade payment of the fare. I agree that had she bought a childs ticket from a machine then that could be seen to be intent but she didn't, she asked advice and paid for a ticket at the ticket office. In fact had she 'intended' to only buy a childs ticket it obviously would have been easier just to buy one from the machine without the risk of being questioned about her age at the ticket office- she is 18 after all, not 15.

 

I can't speak for the ticket officer who issued her with the childs ticket, maybe he thought he was doing her a favour by saving her some money (which he so obviously hasn't). That is a matter for TfL's internal investigation - if they have even taken the time to discuss it with him.

 

Hope this clears things up, thanks for all your time so far and I look forward to your comments.

 

Gribbly

[Old-CodJA]

I did not mean only a self-service machine

 

ALL ticket machines are set to default to Adult-Single including those operated by booking staff, my point was that a specific request has to be made to alter that setting, whether by the purchaser or the clerk issuing the ticket

 

I am sure that a check will have been made with the booking office and in this day and age, depending how long ago it was, a great many instances of ticket purchase are actually recorded. This is a spin-off from the heightened security surrounding stations.

[UNDERGROUND]

Gribbly

 

Old-CodJA has answered your post as well as possible - I won't go over points already covered.

 

Be aware though that Finchley Road and Frognal is not an Underground (or 'tube') station.

 

A couple of questions before I make comment:

 

- What kind of ticket was purchased? (i.e. single, travelcard, return)

 

- Where did your daughter get stopped by the inspector(s)?

 

- What was the intended journey (from and to)?

 

UNDERGROUND

[Gribbly]

Thanks Old-CodJA,

 

That is great news if they have a recorded conversation of the event, as it will be quite obvious that she had been sold the wrong ticket.

 

Can I just clarify once again:

 

AT NO TIME DID MY DAUGHTER ASK OR ATTEMPT TO BUY A CHILD TICKET.

 

As far as she remembers the conversation, it went something like:

 

Daughter "Hello, I've just moved here and I've never done this before so I'm not sure how all this works. I need to get to The Strand."

 

TfL officer "How old are you?"

 

Daughter "18"

 

TfL officer "Are you a student?"

 

Daughter "Yes, do you need to see my student ID?"

 

TfL officer "No, that's fine."

 

He then issued her with a ticket and she paid the amount requested.

 

OK I can appreciate that the ticket remains the property of the railway, however I am assuming that under consumer law, my daughter made a contract with TfL at point of sale to pay for the specific journey, that is what she has paid for rather than the ticket itself. Once the product has been paid for and the contract entered into, I was under the impression that it was illegal for the seller to ask for more money.

 

So under Data protection I'm sure my daughter will be able to ask for all CCTV footage and recorded evidence in addition to the officer's notes who stopped her?

 

From your explanation in your previous reply, can you therefore clarify that the TfL clerk, by deliberately making the specific request of issuing a child ticket has committed an offence and should be responsible for any administration costs involved?

 

Could you also be kind enough to confirm that a verification letter should have been sent by TfL as per their prosecution policy?

 

Many thanks,

 

Gribbly

 

ps many thanks for your kind comments Jackie, my daughter was really shaken up by it and my wife really appreciates your support.

[Gribbly]

Hi Underground,

 

I am not familiar with the specific stations, we live in Coventry so rarely have cause to visit London. Finchley Rd and Frognal is still run by TfL though and part of the Underground system even if not technically an underground station isn't it?

 

In answer to your questions:

 

It was a return ticket.

 

She was stopped at Edgware Rd Station.

 

The intended journey was Finchley Road and Frognal to Temple.

 

Gribbly

[Old-CodJA]

From a prosecutor's viewpoint I'd ask you to look at the conversation part of your posting.

 

Now neither you nor I were there, so you are going by what your daughter has told you and I think it is clear that the booking clerk may not have made an arbitrary decision to sell your daughter a child ticket, but if those were the exact words used, it seems the clerk may have been mislead to believe that your daughter held a student discount card.

 

I think your interpretation of the conversation and mine could be slightly different .

 

TfL officer "How old are you?"

 

Daughter "18"

 

TfL officer "Are you a student?"

 

Daughter "Yes, do you need to see my student ID?"

 

This response infers that your daughter had the requisite student ID and would get it out and show if the clerk wanted her to.

 

TfL officer "No, that's fine."

 

Now the clerk SHOULD have said 'Yes. I need to see it please,' because then it would have been clear what your daughter held.

 

Because your daughter's respons inferred that she had 'student ID', it seems the clerk has mistakenly assumed that your daughter was confirming that she had a student discount card and issued a reduced fare ticket accordingly.

 

That is how I read it from your posting

 

The facts might be entirely different.........

Edited November 1, 2009 by Old-CodJA

[Gribbly]

OK as you say neither I nor you were there, let's hope the conversation has been recorded.

 

In reply to your comments

 

Daughter "Yes, do you need to see my student ID?"

 

This response infers that your daughter had the requisite student ID and would get it out and show if the clerk wanted her to.

 

As far as I see it, it infers nothing. She had already stated she was 18, that she had just moved there and had never done this before. As it was still September and full-time students had not returned it was clear she had not registered yet, so couldn't have had a student discount card. She actually thinks she told him she was going in to register but is not 100% certain of that.

 

Personally, I think its ridiculous that you can't buy a student travel card with TfL in advance once you are accepted on a course, as you can here in Coventry or anywhere else in the country. If we had been able to do this then this farcical series of events would never even have happened.

 

I have also just looked up ticket prices here:

18+ student scheme | Transport for London

 

So even if he mistakenly thought she had a student discount card it should still have been EXACTLY the same price as an adult ticket for an individual cash fare.

 

And I also dispute that "if those were the exact words used, it seems the clerk may have been mislead" this again suggests intent and as I have stated before there was no intent to mislead or avoid payment.

 

I appreciate that you are only playing devil's advocate but all this has only strengthened my belief that the responsibility for this lies with the ticket clerk.

 

With respect, can you please answer my previous requests with regard to the Verification letter, should she have received one of these?

 

Thanks,

 

Gribbly

[Gribbly]

I've been looking again at prices, because I am still at a loss to explain why this clerk issued my daughter with a child ticket. However, from what I can gather from the TfL website a "New Deal" ticket is charged at child price. So can someone- SRPO, Old CodJA, Underground please explain how this ticket works and if a child ticket would be issued or would it say "New Deal". Is it possible he could have issued one of these by mistake?

 

Thanks,

 

Gribbly

[friday13th :-(]

Hi everyone.

 

I was caught today using my mothers freedom pass.

 

I should not have done it and tried to explain that it was a mistake but in all honesty the inspector did not believe me and it was my mistake.

 

I did not admit my guilt to the inspector and I fear that is going to make this situation worse.

 

I am absolutley petrified of the repuccersions and am very confused as to what to do.

 

1. Should I wait for the summons letter (which i am 100% sure i am going to get) or should I try and get hold of someone before that in the prosecutors office?

2. If i should contact someone before hand who would that be?

 

If I write a grovelling apology and accept all responsibility is there any chance it will not end in a criminal conviction?

 

I really appreciate any advice anyone may have for me.

 

Thanks