London Underground

[Old-CodJA]

Provided that the plea is with the legal advisor in Court when it is called from the list at the date of first hearing, it will be recorded as a plea entered.

 

So, if you attend you can do it on the day or, if you are sending a notice of plea by post you just need to ensure that it arrives with the Court (or the Prosecutor) in time for the hearing.

[bonkers9]

Thanks again .

 

I'm being prosecuted under Sec 5(3)(a).

 

My father is a senior citizen and has a freedom pass. My father lost his orange wallet and kept it in a blue Oyster wallet (as these are easier to get hold of). I have a PAYG Oyster card. On the day of the alleged incident, in my haste I took the wrong blue wallet.

 

I was stopped by a revenue control inspector. I explained about the wrong wallet etc. I had enough money on me to pay for the journey - but the RCI didn't take any notice. The RCI got an Oyster usage statement - which displays recent travel using the pass. On the statement, there were no other underground journeys - only bus travel. My father is pretty frail and only gets around using the buses, and thus, no systematic abuse from myself.

 

Given what SRPO said:

Civil law uses the balance of probabilities, criminal law is proof beyond reasonable doubt which is a higher standard of proof.

 

If you are prosecuted under Sec 5(3) of the Regulation Of Railways Act they will have to prove it was your intent to avoid payment.

If they prosecute under the byelaws they only need to prove you were there & you didnt have a valid ticket.

 

Do I have a case? I've already written a letter to settle the matter out of court.

B

p.s. By the way, this is my first offence.

[Old-CodJA]

For what it's worth, I suggest that you have cause to defend the charge on the basis that anyone can make a mistake, but it isyour responsibility to check that you hold a valid ticket before boarding any train.

 

I'll make perfectly clear, this is just my personal opinion, but just like the Magistrates, I have heard time and time again all the arguments about 'being in a hurry', 'I have a stressful job', 'important meeting', 'the bus / taxi / I was late', 'I made a mistake', and even 'I'm too important' etc etc......Occasionally, with the obvious exception of the last one, they are genuine.

 

The fact is, you had a duty to check your Oyster before travelling.

 

Now, from your explanation I believe that you stand a good chance of being acquitted.

 

I assume that you did not complicate things by giving false detils for a start or, try to avoid the ticket check before being stopped?

 

The final outcome will depend on how well you present your case on the day and how strong and well-presented the evidence alleged against you.

 

If everything is as you say it is, then you could be acquitted.

 

This isn't meant to question the veracity of your post, but I have to say that I cannot believe anyone can be absolutely certain from reading a one-sided version what the outcome will be and especially without seeing the prosecution statement.

 

You have to decide whether the odds of winning the case are good enough not to press for settlement before the hearing.

 

Good luck

Edited August 8, 2009 by Old-CodJA

[bonkers9]

I assume that you did not complicate things by giving false detils for a start or, try to avoid the ticket check before being stopped?

 

No false information was given and I co-operated 100% with the RCI.

 

The final outcome will depend on how well you present your case on the day and how strong and well-presented the evidence alleged against you.

 

In the documentation that I've got, I've received the statement from the RCI. This is essentially just a question and answer list- nothing untoward. A photocopy of my father's freedom pass and an Oyster usage statement. Is there any other evidence that the prosecution can present apart from this?

 

Good luck

 

Thank you for all your help - it is much appreciated .

B

[UNDERGROUND]

My father lost his orange wallet and kept it in a blue Oyster wallet (as these are easier to get hold of).

 

Just out of curiosity, how did he lose just the orange wallet and not the pass and photocard within?

 

UNDERGROUND

[bonkers9]

Just out of curiosity, how did he lose just the orange wallet and not the pass and photocard within?

 

As the case is still pending, I'd rather not get into the fine detail of the case. Suffice to say, there is a genuine reason behind this - you'll just have to take my word on it.

 

Will this form the basis of the prosecution's case against me?

 

B

[UNDERGROUND]

As the case is still pending, I'd rather not get into the fine detail of the case. Suffice to say, there is a genuine reason behind this - you'll just have to take my word on it.

 

Will this form the basis of the prosecution's case against me?

 

B

 

bonkers9

 

It's not me you have to convince.

 

No, that wouldn't form the basis of the prosecution's case, the inspectors witness statement and the actual Pass will. But do remember that logic will play a part in the Judge's decision and questions such as the one I asked will no doubt got through their minds.

 

When you feel willing to share more details of the case, please do.

 

Regards

UNDERGROUND

[bonkers9]

I just wanted to update you on the situation and get some more advice from OC/SRPO.

 

I ended up pleading "guilty" and put down in a letter all the mitigating circumstances. In order to reduce costs, I sent it 3 days prior to the court summons - so the RCI didn't have to attend etc.

 

The guilty plea wasn't because I thought I was guilty but because the chances of not winning and then paying substantial costs didn't really appeal to me - even if the odds of winning were 4:1 in my favour.

 

Anyway, I tried to settle out of court with LUL by letter and then following up with a phone call - but no luck. I also wrote a letter to the magistrates court about trying to settle out of court and that I was waiting for a response from LUL. I received the response in good time before the court summons. A person from the court emailed me and asked me what my plea was a few days prior to the court summons date - even though they had received my letter and accompanying information, i.e. everyone knew my plea.

 

However, I received a letter from the court today with a notice of new date of hearing with reason:

 

"The matter has been adjourned because:

1. For you to enter a plea of guilty or not guilty to the offence(s)"

 

My question is: what does this mean given everyone knew that I had made a plea of guilty?

 

B

[SRPO]

Deleted.

Edited September 23, 2009 by SRPO

[Old-CodJA]

Yes, SRPO is right, that is the most likely scenario, but there is one other possibility.

 

Because you were charged witha 5.3.a offence, if your letter said words to the effect that 'you accept you were guilty, but did not intend to avoid the fare', the Magistrates may have considered your plea equivocal and this could have been adjourned for clarification of your plea to the actual charge laid.

 

Where a charge of 'intent' is concerned, you cannot say 'I'm guilty but did not mean to do it'. In those circumstances the correct plea would be 'not guilty'.

 

Usually, the Court will say in their letter if that's the case, but I have known some Courts simply adjourn and request a plea again.

 

Clarify your plea again, but please do be aware that, if it is made clear that you are only pleading guilty for expediency, the Court will be likely to reject it.

 

Good luck

[bonkers9]

Thanks for your comments OC/SRPO.

 

The court actually confirmed via email that they had received my plea by post - this was after they had contacted me (via email again) to ask my plea. So they had my plea by email and post a few days before the date of the hearing.

 

I contacted LUL today and they confirmed that no plea had been submitted so the hearing was adjourned.

 

The adjournment obviously increases my costs - since the mistake was made by the court - do I have any comeback in terms of reducing the prosecution costs?

 

B

[SRPO]

Deleted.

Edited September 23, 2009 by SRPO

[Old-CodJA]

If you are convicted, a minor failing such as this is very unlikely to reduce any award of costs to the prosecution because they have not been negligent.

 

If you sent your plea to the Court and they confirmed receipt, but HMCS admin then failed to add it to the file, the Magistrates could hardly find that the fault of the prosecution.

[bonkers9]

Thanks for the comments once again .

 

In my mitigation letter I forget to put the fact that i've tried to settle out of court with LUL by letter and followed-up by a phone call. Is it worth mentioning? If so, do I write the mitigation letter again and ask the court to replace the old letter or is it an addendum to the original mitigation letter?

 

B

[zxcv123]

i have recently received a letter from london underground following up on when i was stopped for travelling with an incorrect ticket. one cluse says explains that 'the facts are being considered and that legal proceedings may be initiated'. i would obviously like to avoid this matter going to court.

 

the letter gives me the option of replying with any comments relating to the incident.

 

can anyone give me any guidance on how i should reply and what it is in my best interests to do to conclude the whole process out of court?

[Old-CodJA]

i have recently received a letter from london underground following up on when i was stopped for travelling with an incorrect ticket. one cluse says explains that 'the facts are being considered and that legal proceedings may be initiated'. i would obviously like to avoid this matter going to court.

 

the letter gives me the option of replying with any comments relating to the incident.

 

can anyone give me any guidance on how i should reply and what it is in my best interests to do to conclude the whole process out of court?

 

It is difficult to give any meaningful advice without knowing the specific details of your case.

[Concrete1]

I'd really really appreciate UNDERGROUND's advice. I've a similar story to others in this thread, but I thought I'd better provide all the details I know: my flatmate was cautioned yesterday for using a Student Oyster card that wasn't his. The daft thing is he is a student, but that's beside the point now - he admitted he was wrong. I know it's hard to sympathise, but I'm really worried for him - he's a good guy and I understand the consequences could be extreme. The officer involved told him to expect a fine in the post, but I'm guessing there's a strong likelihood they'll prosecute. I have a few questions:

 

Is there any way of checking now whether TFL intend to prosecute? Is there someone he could contact who might have a list of those cases to prosecute and those to fine? Our tenancy ends in a three months and with stories of prosecution notices posted close to six months after the offence, I'm anxious he'll miss an opportunity to deal with the situation right away.

 

Does a letter stating 'the facts are being considered and that legal proceedings may be initiated' always precede a prosecution notice?

 

When is the time to try to settle out of court? Could it be done before any correspondence is sent?

 

My flatmate is on a post-study work visa from the US - I'm worried that a criminal record could result in deportation. Could this be considered an exceptional circumstance in his favour if he asks to settle out of court?

 

I'm really sorry to ask all this without anything to offer in return, I really appreciate the advice in this thread so far. Thank you for reading this.

[bonkers9]

Clarify your plea again, but please do be aware that, if it is made clear that you are only pleading guilty for expediency, the Court will be likely to reject it.

 

OC you were right, they rejected my plea and thus they've given a trial date. I don't have the funds to go to trial though. Is there any alterative?

 

Many thanks

B

[mlondon]

Hi guys,

 

It has been almost 6 months since my incident (20 March 09) and I haven't heard anything from TfL. I rang city of london magistrates and they didn't have my name on any listings. Though I suppose they were just checking current and not historical listings.

 

Please can anyone tell me where I stand? I wish to phone TfL next week to ask what happened with my case.

 

Thanks again for all the good advice

[gin23]

hello, I have a question if that's ok. On around the 23rd of October 2008 I was in London for a night with a friend so that I could be there in time to catch a flight to Thailand. I was given instructions to find her house and bought an all day travel card to use the underground...to meet her I had to also catch a bus to Angel. I waited at the bus stop and one of those bendy buses stopped at the bus stop. Everyone got on (rush hour) in the middle door (this was where the bus came to a stop) and i entered with them. The bus was very full and in truth i expected some sort of conductor service (it had been a very long time since i was in London!)...obviously i now know that this is not the case and upon leaving the bus was challenged by an inspector for the ticket...i told him that i didn't have one and was not afforded the chance to get one because of my entry point to the bus and the amount of people crowded on. I gave him my name and address and asked why there was no conductor service...(guess i'm an unintentional luddite)...he said that there would be a penalty fare and a small chance that I would be taken to court...i explained that i didn't live in London and had no idea how the service worked and he said that there was a good chance that i wouldn't be prosecuted unless there was a record of me having done this sort of thing before. He said a letter would be sent to my address asking what my reasons for not having a ticket. I explained that the next day I would be leaving the country for six months and would not have easy access to my post. He said not to worry too much because there was little chance of a prosecution if I came up clear on their records but asked if I could have somebody look out for the letter when it arrived (the address given was my mums because i obviously had no other address because i would be away for so long.)

So feeling a little stupid (it was never my intention to not pay a two pound fare) I went on holiday and left a message with my mum to look out for a letter from london.

 

My mum never wrote to tell me that I had received a letter so I thought the matter had come to an end. I arrived back in the country and immediately went to work in Cornwall (i sell jewellery in the summer season on a beach and didn't go back to my mums in Leicester when i arrived back to the UK because of the huge round trip that this would have meant). I asked her to send down all my bank post to my address in Cornwall and received it in late july. To my horror, I discovered that I had been issued with a court summons in April for fare evasion. The inspector who had been so nice and understanding at the time had written that I had made no comment to his assertation that i had intended to avoid the fare and there was no record given of me saying what i said to him. I realise that an offence has been committed and that I was in the wrong (however unintentionally). I was obviously found guilty in the case because I was not there and thought to myself, well I have to fight this a little because I never even knew I had to be in court until after the court date had happened. I put it to the back of my mind and decided to sort it out after my season had finished (it's a full on seven day working week until mid-september)...I have just heard from my mum that a bailiff has been to her house to levy goods (there are none there, i just used her address as a place for my banking letters to be sent). I did not recieve a letter from the tranport company (is it TfL?) just the court summons. I have tried to ring Highbury Corner but the automated phone system didn't seem to want to let me talk to anybody. I called the bailiff and he suggested that I pay the fine and the extra money added by his firm (340 pounds in total) and then appeal the decision afterwards. Now where do I stand with this ?

 

I accept that I am guilty but do not accept that I intended to evade the fare and am a little annoyed that he said I remained silent when this was far from the case. Now because this is a summary offence isn't it neccessary for me to have known that there was a trial for the whole thing to be above board ?

 

I really cannot afford a solicitor at the moment (obviously the rain this summer affected my trade enormously) and whilst I'd rather just pay the money and get it all over with I still feel a little wronged by the whole procedure. Is it worth an appeal (where i would have to defend myself) or will this risk the 340 pounds rising to an even higher figure ?

 

Sorry for the length of this letter and the fact that it might read a little unclearly but I would appreciate it if somebody could give me some advice on how to proceed...?

 

Also, would my all day underground ticket have allowed travel on the bus ? if so i feel really really stupid because that was in my pocket all the time.....any help would be great...thanks

[RPI]

I believe you only have a certain amount of time to appeal after the court date, did the inspector caution you at the time? did you sign his notebook/caution pad? Unfortunately I think you may just have to pay the money as it's lapsed so long, although I should wait to see what other people say on this forum first.

[gin23]

I don't recall if I was cautioned or if I signed anything. He did say however that he would make a note of how helpful I was with his enquiries which made me think that perhaps his company get a lot of people who just say nothing to him. I think there might be the chance that I can make an appeal out of time because I have proof that i wasn't in the country....

[SRPO]

Deleted.

Edited September 23, 2009 by SRPO

[mlondon]

Hi guys,

 

It has been almost 6 months since my incident (20 March 09) and I haven't heard anything from TfL. I rang city of london magistrates and they didn't have my name on any listings. Though I suppose they were just checking current and not historical listings.

 

Please can anyone tell me where I stand? I wish to phone TfL next week to ask what happened with my case.

 

Thanks again for all the good advice

 

SPRO, any thoughts?

[SRPO]

Deleted.

Edited September 23, 2009 by SRPO