Harrassed by Pargon - Advice Please

[hogmansden]

I had a loan from Alliance & Leicester in 1993. The loan was for £5000. I broke by leg and due to circumstances beyond my control could not make the payments. I was told I could not claim on the insurance because I was not in employment for more than 6 months (Although I had only just left the military after 9 years service and started work for the new company 1 week later).

 

A judgement was made against me to Universal Credit. The judgement was for £25 a month. These payments have been met constantly.

 

I am now being harrassed by Paragon Finance who say that they own the debt and that my payment of £25 a month is not meeting the "Contracted Terms" of £134 a month. Paragon have been running this account since 1999 and have never had a contract with me for anything. I have never signed a credit agreement with them.

 

Are they acting unlawfully?

 

Is this something that should be reported to either the OFT of FOS?

 

I feel that I am not alone with Paragon as a search on google reveals many more people seemingly being harrassed by them.

[PGH7447]

If the judgement is from a CCJ then Paragon can whinge all they like.

 

Reference the loan and PPI was the loan taken out while in the forces if so it was probably mis-sold

[palomino]

pgh is correct. If you have been ordered by the court to make payments of £25 then that is what you should pay.

If Paragon want to change this then they will have to go back to court.

 

The issue of the six months is that you must have been in your current employment for a minimum of six months. If you had only just started with a new employer then it won't apply. If the creditor knew that you had only just started with that employer but still sold you PPI then it was mis-sold and you have a claim on that basis.

[Dial Square]

Be very careful with these lot. They have a nasty habit of adding interest on top of the judgement debt so that you think it's reducing when in fact there is no chance of you ever paying it back. I had a judgement with them and asked for a balance in 2007 with a view to clear the debt. My judgement balance was under £1000 but they had added a further £10K in interest. I went to the CAB who gave me some very good advice. I paid the judgement balance in full and argued the validity of the interest. They agreed to write it off as a gesture of goodwill! They are using the OFTvFNB case which found in favour of FNB adding interest to judgements. However, they have to request a certain type of judgement to do this which they didn't do in my case and I believe they do not do it as a rule. I don't think they want to set a president which is why they seem to agree to write the interest off whenever someone argues the point. I would see if you can get a balance from them. They are very conspicuous in witholding that information.

[hogmansden]

The judgement was not with Paragon, it was with Universal Credit. I believe that UC went bust in 1999 and Paragon bought the debt from them.

 

Is the advice still valid?

 

I know that interest was frozen as part of the judgment.

[cerberusalert]

What was the amount of the judgement & how much have you paid in total?

[Dial Square]

I would say it still applies. My original Loan was with Universal Credit too and all my payments up to the end were in the name of Universal credit. They will try it on with the interest as they keep the judgement balance and the interest balance separate. They use the words "Contractual Interest"

I would find try to find out exactly what is owed on the judgement and continue pay until you have cleard that balance only. If you need help to argue the interest case I can PM you a copy of my letter that i sent to got them off my back.

[palomino]

I think you will find that the Courts have more power than a creditor. Paragon will find that out too.

[hogmansden]

I have spoken to them to day, albeit a little heated. I spoke to Nicky Richards. (Pagagon Collections Manager) telling them that I was considering reporting them to the FSO. She insisted that as they had thousands of agreements that they knew the law. I asked them to provide me with a statement of account and a CCA with PARAGON FINANCE. She believes that they do have one, I know for sure that they do not have anything signed by me that would resemble any form of contract.

 

Is it me or do these people seem to think that anybody with a debt must also be stupid and will not challenge anything they say?

[PGH7447]

I have spoken to them to day, albeit a little heated. I spoke to Nicky Richards. (Pagagon Collections Manager) telling them that I was considering reporting them to the FSO. She insisted that as they had thousands of agreements that they knew the law. I asked them to provide me with a statement of account and a CCA with PARAGON FINANCE. She believes that they do have one, I know for sure that they do not have anything signed by me that would resemble any form of contract.

 

Is it me or do these people seem to think that anybody with a debt must also be stupid and will not challenge anything they say? Got it in one

 

Golden rule from now on never call unkless you can record the conversation always write.

 

and the question re PPI did you take it out while serving in the forces, it may have been mis-sold

[42man]

I'd avoid speaking to them anymore......a few questions though, do you still have details of the judgment ? - if not have a look here - CCJs, court orders & fines - Search yourself and others - Trust Online Also is there anywhere in the life of the debt where you haven't made a payment for 6 years ? (5 in Scotland) or acknowledged it ? You need to make a CCA request in writing too, they can just deny you ever made it and it costs £1.... (however be warned they may state that they don't need to get it as judgment has already been passed on the debt....) - http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/581-cca-request-letter.html

 

A SAR to the original creditor MAY possibly turn up something even after a long time.....but this costs £10 (send recorded) - http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/576-subject-access-request-debt-a-dca.html

[lilly white]

Good God

 

I Am Beginning To Despair

 

Please 42man Has Ask Some Question Please Do Reply

 

 

You Are Most Welcome And Among Friends

 

Lilly

[hogmansden]

Yes the PPI was taken while in the forces. I (as were many soldiers) was sold insurance that was heavily loaded even though in some cases we were not covered. I was sold Life insurance prior to Operation Granby that was heavily loaded. Only to find that they would not pay up any claims due to it being a war. The insurance guy actually came to my house and we signed the papers there. He knew I was going to the Gulf.

 

PPI is the biggest con ever. Even my mortgage insurance would not cover me when I broke my leg and then also tried it again when I had an operation (to fix the original break) 3 years later. They tried to argue that the operation was as a result of the original injury and as such was covered by the fact that I had not been in employment for 6 months. Even though I have only been out of work for 1 week in my entire life (I am now 40!).

 

I am awaiting a statement from Paragon. Unfortunately Moving home and having a wife that sees anything resembling clutter as rubbish means I do not have the details of the original judgment. I will look at the links though.

[hogmansden]

There has not been a gap of 6 years. I have made a regular payment.

[PGH7447]

So they should have paid out then if you took the ppi out while in the forces, changing jobs does not mean the ppi is suddenly invalid.

 

you need to look at th PPi forum for guidlines on how to recalim this, first things first though send parasites a sar for all statements / agreements and any other crap they have on you, costs £10 send it recorded and do not sign just print - the template is under the link in 42mans post above

[hogmansden]

Thank you all for some excellent advice. I have just printed of the letter and it will be on its way this evening.

 

I feel that this entire business needs urgent reform and legislation. My friend has just been chased for a debt for a loan he was paying yet the company folded. Now a debt collector has knocked on his door 8 years later. He is determined that the debt collector has nothing on him and is taking them to court.

[hogmansden]

I now have had a reply from the letter I sent dated 7th April.

They have stated the following:

 

"As there is no obligation on us to produce a copy of the actual agreement executed by you, please find detailed below, the financial particulars relating to the loan."

 

They also state:

 

"Section 77 of the Consumer Credit Act imposes an obligation to supply a 'copy of the executed agreement'. Section 180 of the act provides for the making of regulations governing the form and content of copy agreements and, pursuant to that section, the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations were introduced in 1983.

 

Regulation 3 (2) expressly provides that a copy need not be an exact copy of the agreement signed in that we are permitted to exclude from the copy:-

(a) any details furnished by the customer (for example, any information required to underwrite the case and included in the agreement);

(b) any signature boxes, signature or date of signature; and

© in certain cases, the customer's name and address."

 

They provided details of the original loan ammount that was taken out with Alliance and Leicester. They then produced an extremely dodgy copy of a loan agreement where all the printed text is badly reproduced, and yet all the figures are obviously written in fresh and there is NO signature.

 

They then provided what appears to be a template letter that says that they took over from Universal Credit. The letter still has the mail merge field names in rather than the actual data and is not signed, dated or addressed to me. They also produced a copy of the original CCJ that clearly shows that the payment is not £134 a month as suggested by Nicky Richards. The agreement through the courts was for £35 a month.

 

I am prepared to continue making regular payments as agreed by both parties as per the CCJ.

 

What should I do now?

 

I feel that this really stinks and I may seek legal advice regarding any possible false representations. I simply can not believe that there is a loophole in the CCA that allows a company to claim a debt without producing Legible documents that include signatures and dates.

[cerberusalert]

They are only entitled to what is stipulated on the court order, they cannot change it only a court can do that, in fact if your circumstances have changed and you are having difficulties paying that amount you could apply to the court for a redetermination hearing.

 

In fact a complaint to the OFT about them wouldn't be amiss.

[email protected]

 

tel: 020 7211 5823

[hogmansden]

Hi, dragging this up from the depths again.

 

I have been making regular payments of £35 to these parasites as the ORIGINAL CCJ stated, even though UC were happy for me to pay £25. Now I am getting phone calls from these people saying that as I have been paying £35 for a while they want to review my case. They started asking for things like "your mobile number" "your employers details" I quite rightly told them that they were not entitled to these details as under the Data Protection Act they only need enough data to carry out the job.

 

They told me that they are entitled to review the agreement even though I have a CCJ.

 

What reapply gripes me is that a company can "buy" a debt that is already being paid in accordance with a CCJ, then add interest etc and attempt to demand a greater monthly payment.

 

I also notice that the Subject Access Requests are useless as they simply reply with:

 

"As there is no obligation on us to produce a copy of the actual agreement executed by you, please find detailed below, the financial particulars relating to the loan."

 

They also state:

 

"Section 77 of the Consumer Credit Act imposes an obligation to supply a 'copy of the executed agreement'. Section 180 of the act provides for the making of regulations governing the form and content of copy agreements and, pursuant to that section, the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations were introduced in 1983.

 

Regulation 3 (2) expressly provides that a copy need not be an exact copy of the agreement signed in that we are permitted to exclude from the copy:-

(a) any details furnished by the customer (for example, any information required to underwrite the case and included in the agreement);

(b) any signature boxes, signature or date of signature; and

© in certain cases, the customer's name and address."

 

When I made my SAR I got the following:

 

There was an obviously doctored agreement form that did not bear my signature (or any signature in fact). The form was a badly photocopied document but my details had been written in using fresh Biro ink. A covering letter that was supposedly to show how the debt had been transferred from Universal Credit to Paragon was in its best form, useless. The letter was a document template without my name, address, or even a letterhead from universal credit. The document looked like a mail merge document with the field names included. Under scrutiny this would appear to be an attempt to falsely represent an actual debt to the company.

 

 

I really need to get these parasites off my back. Any advice, is as always, greatly appreciated.

 

 

Paul

[cerberusalert]

They told me that they are entitled to review the agreement even though I have a CCJ.

They are only entitled to what was stated in the judgement, no more. Personally I would ignore them as you are adhering to the CCJ & they can do nothing.

 

You could always send them this if you prefer

 

Dear Sirs,

 

I refer you to the reply given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram (1971).

 

Yours,

[cerberusalert]

What reapply gripes me is that a company can "buy" a debt that is already being paid in accordance with a CCJ, then add interest etc and attempt to demand a greater monthly payment.

Unless the judgement stipulated interest there isn't any.

[hogmansden]

Yet again they have called. They are insisting on doing a full review. I even took the guys name and told him that if they continued to call I would contact the police and pursue a criminal harrasment case against them and the guy simply said "Whatever"

 

His name is Paul Watts, they are using different numbers to call me on.

[trying to save]

reading your thread with interest as i am in the same situation with a debt originally with UC and now with Paragon in my OH's name.

 

TTS

[cerberusalert]

It seems as if Paragon are making a habit of this http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?312161-Paragon-need-some-help-to-deal-with-them-!!!(11-Viewing)-nbsp

 

You should all complain to the OFT, your local Trading Standards & the MoJ.

 

Paragon are completely out of order here and in effect committing contempt of court.

[Ell-enn]

If they were not the original Claimant on the CCJ have they informed the court of this change ?