How long after disconnection can default be applied? ***WON***

[fuzzyfuzzy]

Hi,

 

I disconnected from Orange around Oct 2004 and they then sent the spurious bills which i refused to pay. They lodged a default in Aug 2005.

 

Is this allowed? Is there a timescale that it has to be applied by? Effectively they are marking my credit file for nearly 7 years as it was marked as non payment before even issuing the default.

 

I have tried to come to an agreement with Orange but the staff have been brainwashed so much that they cannot see sense. I have offered to pay the £91 they say I owe them if they agree to remove the default, they aren't interested.

 

Any help, much appreciated as I like thousands others am struggling to get a mortgage over a ridiculous dispute that i am found guilty off without trial, incredibly unfair

[fuzzyfuzzy]

Can anyone advise me if there is a timescale that the default has to be lodged by. Im serached all over the internet but cannot find it but surely it must do??? Cheers

[fuzzyfuzzy]

Hi again,

 

I have read in this excellent and informative thread that the default has to be applied within 6 months of the missed payment, http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/telecoms-mobile-fixed/183226-default-3-a.html

 

I hope that this means i have a case for getting this removed and getting a mortgage.

 

Could someone possibly advise me on the best people at Orange to contact, should i got to the Data Protection Officer?

 

I would really appreciate some help on this,

 

Thanks very much

[tadg]

It's not quite as simple as that.

 

First, though, you need to be clear whether you did owe Orange money for services received/used, why you didn't pay (were you in dispute?), whether Orange made you aware of the monies owed and their intention to file a default.

 

The ICO guidance on defaults states:

- Accounts should not be routinely filed as being in default where full payments or those due under a rescheduled agreement are fewer than three consecutive months in arrears.

- Accounts should normally be filed as being in default where those payments due have not been received for six months.

 

Are you able to provide more info?

[fuzzyfuzzy]

It's not quite as simple as that.

 

First, though, you need to be clear whether you did owe Orange money for services received/used, why you didn't pay (were you in dispute?), whether Orange made you aware of the monies owed and their intention to file a default.

 

The ICO guidance on defaults states:

- Accounts should not be routinely filed as being in default where full payments or those due under a rescheduled agreement are fewer than three consecutive months in arrears.

- Accounts should normally be filed as being in default where those payments due have not been received for six months.

 

Are you able to provide more info?

 

Hi

 

Thanks for your reply,

 

At the time I was furious with them as they had for 10 months been taking my phone bill from someone elses account. I didnt realise until one day my phone was not working and I called them and they said i owed them £XXX for 10 months unpaid bills, after much debate it was established that one of their staff put someone elses bank account in my direct debit details!!! Absoultely astonishing.

 

I was livid that they made me pay this up in full before allowing me to make OR receive phone calls as it was clearly their fault. Their attitude was unbelievable. I know i should have checked my bank account but i was 19 at the time and as long as they werent chasing me for money i assumed all was well.

 

So i said to them that i dont believe them and that i wanted proof as i thought this was another mess up by them. They neverf gave me proof so i never paid. So yeah as far as i was concerned it was in dispute.

 

Last year i contacted them offering to pay the amount if they removed the default, they point blank said no. They sent me some kind of internal invoice that was full of codes and abreviations but seemed to show that i indeed owed them money. I thought well theres no point paying them for nothing, they have already issued the default and wont budge so why waste my money.

 

Anyway, i am not trying to profess my innocence or their blame. I believe it is 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other. BUT i dont feel it is fair that they can just slap this on me for 6 years with no chance of recompence.

 

Im trying to get a mortgage and guess whats coming back to haunt me. So i want to get rid of it if at all possible.

 

I have posted a letter today, the gist of it is that i believe the info is incorrect as at the time of serving the notice i had no active account (my number was ported to O2 in October 2004) I said they have broken principle 4 of the DPA and that if they fail to remove it i will take them to the small claims courts. I mean it tho, i really will. If they want to defend their stance on issuing these moronic defaults then let them pay for it.

 

If the guidance says it should normally be done at 6 months how can they wait 10?

 

Anyway, what do you think?

 

Cheers

[buzby]

The ICO guidance on defaults states:

- Accounts should not be routinely filed as being in default where full payments or those due under a rescheduled agreement are fewer than three consecutive months in arrears.

 

This is the second thread here to promote this erroneous section of CCA defaults (which are irrelevant for mobile contracts).

 

A mobile default is not a CCJ, or CCA default - it is a word misued by the industry (mobile and debt) to confuse consumers, and boy have they done a grand job. For mobiles, you are in default where toy do not meet the stipulated terms and conditions agreed. So, 4 weeks after your bill is issued, you are in default if you haven't paid it. No ifs or buts.

 

The networks show this 'default' by noting the delay in payment on your credit file. After week 4 of non-payment, services are usually restricted to incoming calls. (Each network has its own policies), by week 8 with no payment - or a partial payment, all service in and out are blocked. All during this time the account is in default, but the customer has not been 'defaulted'....yet.

 

By week 12, the amount owing is transferred to the collections department which can be internal or external, the contract is terminated with prejudice, and a final bill calculated adding the amounts required to pay off the obligations in full to the network. This can also be called a Default, but it is not a 'formal' state - as the customers has technically been in breach for 3 months now.

 

It is the CRA's who latched on to this 'default' and treat it the same was as a CCJ or CCA default - which is totally wrong, but as the customer has already waived their rights to confidentiality by allowing the network to disclose their details to third parties, it is kinda pointless complaining about this after the event.

 

On the matter of keying eerrors in a Direct Debit, again the courts are fairly strict in their views surrounding payments. The customer remains liable at all times to ensure payment is made for the services provided. Providing a 'direct debit' does not provide a solution - it remains the legal responsibiliy of the customer to make payments and has no recourse to complain if they don't take the payment as it is never up to the firm to take a payment, if they don't, the customer still remains legally responsible for the debt and can be pursued for it just as if no arrangement was in place.

Edited April 6, 2009 by buzby

[fuzzyfuzzy]

This is the second thread here to promote this erroneous section of CCA defaults (which are irrelevant for mobile contracts).

 

A mobile default is not a CCJ, or CCA default - it is a word misued by the industry (mobile and debt) to confuse consumers, and boy have they done a grand job. For mobiles, you are in default where toy do not meet the stipulated terms and conditions agreed. So, 4 weeks after your bill is issued, you are in default if you haven't paid it. No ifs or buts.

 

The networks show this 'default' by noting the delay in payment on your credit file. After week 4 of non-payment, services are usually restricted to incoming calls. (Each network has its own policies), by week 8 with no payment - or a partial payment, all service in and out are blocked. All during this time the account is in default, but the customer has not been 'defaulted'....yet.

 

By week 12, the amount owing is transferred to the collections department which can be internal or external, the contract is terminated with prejudice, and a final bill calculated adding the amounts required to pay off the obligations in full to the network. This can also be called a Default, but it is not a 'formal' state - as the customers has technically been in breach for 3 months now.

 

It is the CRA's who latched on to this 'default' and treat it the same was as a CCJ or CCA default - which is totally wrong, but as the customer has already waived their rights to confidentiality by allowing the network to disclose their details to third parties, it is kinda pointless complaining about this after the event.

 

On the matter of keying eerrors in a Direct Debit, again the courts are fairly strict in their views surrounding payments. The customer remains liable at all times to ensure payment is made for the services provided. Providing a 'direct debit' does not provide a solution - it remains the legal responsibiliy of the customer to make payments and has no recourse to complain if they don't take the payment as it is never up to the firm to take a payment, if they don't, the customer still remains legally responsible for the debt and can be pursued for it just as if no arrangement was in place.

 

Surely it is an unfair t&c then if they report ficticious information, e.g a default that is technically not a default?

 

It amazes me also that they can have their cake and eat it, they get all the benefits of threating defaults and applying them etc but have no responsibility to comply to proper and regulated requirements, even the guidelines dont apply to them.

 

Surley a credit file can only report info on credit agreements otherwise where do you draw the line? Whether we agree to it in the t& c or not, this MUST be a unfair t&c. For something that has such a potentially detremental affect on a persons life then surely they must have to answer for more than this?

 

They hold all the cards and can just shut down your line in moments without ever having to justify this. Unless serious action is brought upon them - it shouldnt be stacked up in their favour like this. They have more responsibility than they wish to be accounted for.

 

Its about time an enquiry was raised into the practice of mobile phone providers (and broadband for that matter)

 

I dont know a single person that hasnt had problems with over billing, being shut down, defaults, incompetant and rude staff etc etc, this is across the mobile industry not just orange. No companies or industry is perfect but this lot are shocking

[buzby]

I know exactly where you are coming from, but the problem we have is that the information isn't 'erroneous' - the default is genuine and does exist. (Not the lower case 'd'). The issue is that it is isn't a formal Default in the civil sense. Now, if they called it a Decree - then there would be no doubt - but look at the 'real' meaning of a CCJ.

 

Let's say I take you to court for something and lose. The county court judge gives his answer that there is no case to answer, so in effect he has advised me of his judgement (in the county court). So I could justly claim I obtained a CCJ about our dispute - but it isn't a 'CCJJ in the sense of that used by CRAs (or anyone else), un in this wonderful language of ours, it remains grammatically and factually correct - if totally misleading.

 

As to the fact CRAs are recording details of your financial affairs when it has nothing to do with 'credit' - I quite agree, but they don't see it that way. However if everyone REFUSED to sign a mobile contract because of the enforced disclosure of your financial dealings, then you can be sure the networks would have to look at this and think again. You have to ask yourself, why did I allow my details to be released? It is because people don't read their contracts or attempt to opt out that this situation has arisen. So as much as the CRAs are making use of the data, if consumers didn;t give them their permission with every new agreement, this wouldn;t be the issue it is now.

Edited April 7, 2009 by buzby

[fuzzyfuzzy]

Yeah its all very one sided and not regulated enough for my liking.

 

Im going at them as they cant just insert the default as and when they can be bothered. There is clearly a time when it is too late (e.g 10 years after) so if they dont remove it i will take them to court as i think that the courts will use the only guidance they have available to them, whether or not they HAVE to use this guidance. That is if Orange feel it is important enough to send a rep and pay costs. I doubt they will

 

Will let you know when i hear back from them

[buzby]

Actually they can! Yes, it Is one-sided, but you (presumably) agreed to it. Al they are doing it noting you owe/owed them money and it is this that blights your file. If you DIDN'T owe them money, sure you can get it removed as they are not allowed to display incorrect or misleading data - but if the money was owed, then they will not remove the blight because it remains a 'statement of fact' regarding the way the account was handled. The only time limit is that it must be removed 6 years after application. If the network was tardy in 'closing' your contract this will be a pain, but there are no stipulations on timescales for this - it is just another debt, and not even one regulated by the CCA.

[dera2005]

Fuzzy sorry to hijack your post but I have a simular sitaution where as my orange phone was disconnected back in 2004 october due to a payment dispute and was sent to a DCA.

 

My credit file to this day still shows the account as being active and upto date but still will an outstanding balance.

 

What i need to know is since this was nearly 5 years ago if I call them to pay it can they default the account to present or would they enter the default date to register back in 2004 ? Also bizarely there is no bad history for the account either.

 

Any advice wouild be good since i do want to pay it off but i dont want to get defaulted for the privlidge if that makes sense.

[tadg]

Fuzzy .. sorry, I've been away for Easter and couldn't respond sooner.

 

I don't agree that the reference to the ICO's guidance on defaults is erroneous.

 

From my experiencel, the ICO applies their guidance to 'defaults' recorded by mobile phone companies as robustly to 'defaults' recorded by financial institutions who extend loans regulated by the CCA. Mobile operators also follow this guidance in developing and implementing their debt collections strategies and activities - it would be unwise of them not to follow it (for a number of very good business reasons).

 

One of the key points here - whether the CCA applies or not - is that ALL organisations that report financial information to CRAs are required to comply with the requirements of the Data Protection Act and consider any applicable guidance issued by the ICO. For example, Mobile operators are required to ensure that the date a default recorded on a CRA file reflects the date on which the account actually went into default (using a range of criteria) - as Buzby suggests, this could be 12 weeks following a failure to pay an outstanding debt.

 

On the face of it, it seems that Orange made a number of mistakes in addition to you not checking payments were being taken. Orange should certainly have taken action sooner to contact you about their error in establishing wrong payment details, they should also have made you aware of their intention to file a default given the circumstances of your specific case. I would also suggest that given the billing errors, you have a case to argue that Orange failed to comply with its duty under General Condition 12 of the Communications Act 2003 and which requires mobile and fixed operators to provide subscribers - you - with itemised bills that show a sufficient level of detail to allow subscribers to:

(a) verify and control the charges incurred; and

(b) adequately monitor the Subscriber’s usage and expenditure and

thereby exercise a reasonable degree of control over their bills.

 

From what you say, Orange failed to supply you with bills for a significant period and so questions compliance with the above.

 

Under General Condition 13, where a subscriber fails to pay their bills, any action taken by the operator to effect payment or disconnection shall:

(a) be proportionate and not unduly discriminatory;

(b) give due warning to the Subscriber beforehand of any consequent service interruption or disconnection; and

© except in cases of fraud, persistent late payment or nonpayment,

confine any service interruption to the service concerned, as far as technically feasible.

Operators are required to send written details of the above measures to subscribers AND publish them on their websites.

 

I shall leave it to you to decide what course of action is appropriate. You did owe money but Orange should also have made a better job of matters.

 

I hope this has been of some help.

[buzby]

From my experience, the ICO applies their guidance to 'defaults' recorded by mobile phone companies as robustly to 'defaults' recorded by financial institutions who extend loans regulated by the CCA.

 

This would be extremely useful - if this was the case. However 'experience', and what they say may differ. We need an unshakeable statement that ALL 'defaults' are covered, but based on the reading of the ICO's advice, this is open to more interpretation that is reasonable - given that everything else is quite clearly specified.

 

If a mobile firm default you, then what we need to make this challenge stick, is the ICO to apply the same rules current for a CCA, but this still is not a 'default' in the accepted sense - so can you expand on this experience you talk of, and how this can be used to benefit others?

[fuzzyfuzzy]

Fuzzy .. sorry, I've been away for Easter and couldn't respond sooner.

 

I don't agree that the reference to the ICO's guidance on defaults is erroneous.

 

From my experiencel, the ICO applies their guidance to 'defaults' recorded by mobile phone companies as robustly to 'defaults' recorded by financial institutions who extend loans regulated by the CCA. Mobile operators also follow this guidance in developing and implementing their debt collections strategies and activities - it would be unwise of them not to follow it (for a number of very good business reasons).

 

One of the key points here - whether the CCA applies or not - is that ALL organisations that report financial information to CRAs are required to comply with the requirements of the Data Protection Act and consider any applicable guidance issued by the ICO. For example, Mobile operators are required to ensure that the date a default recorded on a CRA file reflects the date on which the account actually went into default (using a range of criteria) - as Buzby suggests, this could be 12 weeks following a failure to pay an outstanding debt.

 

On the face of it, it seems that Orange made a number of mistakes in addition to you not checking payments were being taken. Orange should certainly have taken action sooner to contact you about their error in establishing wrong payment details, they should also have made you aware of their intention to file a default given the circumstances of your specific case. I would also suggest that given the billing errors, you have a case to argue that Orange failed to comply with its duty under General Condition 12 of the Communications Act 2003 and which requires mobile and fixed operators to provide subscribers - you - with itemised bills that show a sufficient level of detail to allow subscribers to:

(a) verify and control the charges incurred; and

(b) adequately monitor the Subscriber’s usage and expenditure and

thereby exercise a reasonable degree of control over their bills.

 

From what you say, Orange failed to supply you with bills for a significant period and so questions compliance with the above.

 

Under General Condition 13, where a subscriber fails to pay their bills, any action taken by the operator to effect payment or disconnection shall:

(a) be proportionate and not unduly discriminatory;

(b) give due warning to the Subscriber beforehand of any consequent service interruption or disconnection; and

© except in cases of fraud, persistent late payment or nonpayment,

confine any service interruption to the service concerned, as far as technically feasible.

Operators are required to send written details of the above measures to subscribers AND publish them on their websites.

 

I shall leave it to you to decide what course of action is appropriate. You did owe money but Orange should also have made a better job of matters.

 

I hope this has been of some help.

 

Hi,

 

 

Thanks for your reply, ive been so busy ive not had chance to come back and update people.

 

Basically, i sent numerous emails to the executive officer at orange to get them to justify why they didnt file the default until 10 months. They just kept regurgitating the same general info and avoiding my direct question - for 6 email replies. They are stuck firm in their blind belief that they can do as they please and everyone else can swivel. I had been emailing the CEO

also as i hoped he might realise that i will have cost them far far more in admin costs to fight this than they lost in the first place. I also see no benefit other than spite for them to be so desperate to continue saying this. I can honestly say that they have well and truely done a good job of ensuring that i will NEVER have anything to do with orange or associated groups ever again.

 

I sent them a final email to say that they must answer why they waited so long and their justification or i will start court proceedings. They didnt reply, so I have filled a claim against them through money claim online for damages and distress for not being able to get favourable credit. this was filed on the 28/04, i have heard nothing from them yet. I was hoping that they would finally pull their heads out the sand and just remove it from my file.

 

Can anyone give me some idea of what may happen if they eitheir dont respond? Will the courts order it to be removed? Is it likely that they will not respond? I was thinking they would call me and say something like they will remove the default but wont pay my fees.

 

I doubt very much they will defend this but their ignorance so far wouldnt surprise me if they spend ££££ on legal fees defended.

 

Any opinions would be gratefully received

 

cheers

[buzby]

You can certainly ask for the courts to remove it - but the Small Claims route may achieve this - but the Moneyclaim is out as you are requiring a course of action, not an amount of money.

 

As for whether you will be successful - I have searched many sources to discover whether the ICO does indeed treat mobile phone defaults in the same way as 'financia' ones - and I cannot find this at all No guidance, no rulings, simply a default 'must be accurate'.

 

Other CAGgers have found if you hassle them, they may well make a point of removal, but the whole point is that the default must be accurate - that it took 10 months to be applied is not a reason for removal. Unfortunately.

[fuzzyfuzzy]

You can certainly ask for the courts to remove it - but the Small Claims route may achieve this - but the Moneyclaim is out as you are requiring a course of action, not an amount of money.

 

As for whether you will be successful - I have searched many sources to discover whether the ICO does indeed treat mobile phone defaults in the same way as 'financia' ones - and I cannot find this at all No guidance, no rulings, simply a default 'must be accurate'.

 

Other CAGgers have found if you hassle them, they may well make a point of removal, but the whole point is that the default must be accurate - that it took 10 months to be applied is not a reason for removal. Unfortunately.

 

hi, yeah thanks i thought that the money claim was the small claims court?

 

Ive been hassling them for 2 years, on and off, this time though i have really gone at them full ball and they just refuse to remove it.

 

Ill let you know

[buzby]

Moneyclaim is simply a sub-set of the Small Claims process in E&W, used for... claiming money.

 

Good luck!

[tadg]

fuzzyfuzzy ,,, been away .. sorry for delay in reply.

 

It is doubtful they will remove the default if you did owe them money. HOWEVER, they clearly have a case to answer over the manner in which they have dealt with you and the recording of your data. I would suggest you:

(a) contact OFCOM and report ORANGE for failing to comply with it's obligations under General Condition 12 and 13 (above) - explain why - and ask OFCOM to investigate and confirm what it intends to do to ensure Orange and other telcos comply with the conditions. Ask them to provide details of their investigation

 

(b) Report Orange to the Office of the Information Commissioner - you need to focus on the inaccurate processing of your information, beginning with the fact that they sent your bills to another customer .. then focus on the dates and amounts of the default and present the facts of any inaccuracies (help the ICO make a case!), also explain whether ORANGE gave you any notice of intention to file a default (either verbally or in writing).. ask the ICO to assess whether in their view the processing of your data - in respect of incorrect billing and recording a default - has been carried out in accordance with the requirements of the DPA 98 and their Technical Guidance on Defaults ...

 

© mobile operators must belong to an Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) scheme (see http://www.ofcom.org.uk/advice/guides/complain.pdf) ORANGE .. belongs to CISAS (CISAS: Communications & Internet Services Adjudication Scheme) .. you can complain to an ADR if a company has not resolved your complaint within 12 weeks or if they have issued you a deadlock letter .. again, you can refer to the failure to comply with the general conditions and inaccurate processing .. etc

 

As for the ICO and their view on mobile defaults .. I have significant experience working for large corporates and dealing with a range of regulators and trade groups in the area of data privacy compliance. I can assure you that the ICO does apply the guidance on defaults (and debt collection) to the mobile industry even though they may not be caught by the CCA - indeed, the ICO's technical guidance was written to avoid restricting it to CCA regulated agreements. The ICO is genuinely concerned about the harm that can be caused to an individual by the incorrect or inaccurate recording of data on credit files ...

 

The ICO would look at a number of things in your case - the fact that Orange billed the wrong customer, whether you contacted Orange about this error and the response of Orange, whether Orange notified you of the debt and their intention to file a default (the DPA does not require such notice . but the ICO would look at it from a best practice perspective -but again, refer to the LEGAL obligation of Orange to notify you in writing of their intentions under GC13 above - the ICO would look at this) ..... inaccurate recording of the dates and/pr amount of a default) ......... the maximum period for recording a default is 6 months from the date the default occurred .. and the date recorded must be the actual date the account went into default and NOT the date the data were sent to a CRA .. normally, a default would be recorded by a mobile operator after approx 3 months .. some operators would use the date explained in the notice of intention to file a default ...

 

Orange may did in it's heels and refuse to remove the default, ensuring only that it accurately reflects the amounts/dates etc .....

[fuzzyfuzzy]

thanks tadg and buzby, im gona get on at them again. Its really interesting what you have said tadg, im going to use all of it, a great help.

 

heres a copy of what my equifax file looks like, as i made no payments since Oct and my account was closed in Oct how can this be right? It says i have 6 payments 1 month in arrears and yet i have no payments 2 months in arears and then 4 payments 3 months in arears.

 

It goes from 1 to 5 then stays at 6 for 3 months before becomming a D?

 

This seems totally wrong to me.

 

Any ideas?

 

Payment History

See Key of Payment History

YearJanFebMarAprMayJun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec

2005

 

YearMayJunJulAugSepOctNovDec

2004

 

6 payment"s" 1 month in arrears; 0 payment"s" 2 months in arrears; 4 payment"s" 3 or more months in arrears. Default has been registered on this account

Edited May 6, 2009 by fuzzyfuzzy

[fuzzyfuzzy]

i was thinking, do you think its worth me doing a dsir? just to see if theres any descrepancies that i can use as leaverage?

[tadg]

Hi Fuzzyfuzzy,

 

Yes, I would advise you to submit a 'subject access request' to Orange.

 

Unfortunately Orange does not have a dedicated Data Protection Officer or Manager, and you will need to write to: Orange Customer Services, PO Box 10, Patchway, Bristol BS32 4QJ. I would mark the envelope with the words 'Data Protection Act 1998 - Subject Access Request'. Also send the letter by email to: [email protected]

 

You will need to provide proof of identity (copy of passport or photo ID drivers licence) proof of address (your last Orange phone bill? or utility bill), a cheque for £10 and any other information (necessary) to help Orange locate the data sought by you (such as dates of letters/emails and addressee, date and time of calls + number call made from if you are seeking copies of any voice recordings, names of employees you have dealt with if you have this info.

 

If you have have moved address since being an Orange customer you will need to confirm your old and new address. Also quote your Orange mobile number and account number - this really helps locate the data faster and more accurately.

 

Re your letter, you should write along the lines below .. amending as you require:

 

"Dear Sirs,

 

Subject Access Request - Data Protection Act 1998

 

I wish to exercise my rights under Section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998 (the DPA) to obtain a copy of of all personal data held about me by Orange, it's group of companies and any data processors acting on behalf of Orange.

 

I have been/was a customer of Orange between xx and xx . My mobile number is/was, and my account number is/was.

 

Specifically, I request that Orange provide the following information covered by the DPA:

Section 7(1))b)(i) - what data is being processed and held about me.

 

Section 7(1)(b)(ii) - what purposes is the data being processed for?

 

Section 7(1)(b)(ii) - who has the data been disclosed to and is likely to be disclosed to (and for what purposes)?

 

Under Section 7(1)©(i) of the DPA, please provide me with a copy of the information constituting the data which you hold about. This should include, but is not limited to:

(a) all itemised bills held since XXX DATE

(b) all information disclosed to credit reference agencies, including an explanation in plain English of any terms or codes used. This should include copies of the electronic files sent to the agencies

© all information held by Orange's billing and collections teams relating to any alleged debts owed by me - including details of actions taken to notify and recover the debt. This should include copies of any correspondence, voice recordings or transcripts of recordings, plus any data held on systems uniquely maintained by those departments. I would also expect to receive details of any automated actions taken regards the alleged debt.

(d) copies of any notices of Orange's intention to file a default with the credit reference agencies (including the media of such notices, the date they were were communicated and the means by which they were communicated). This information should have been supplied by Orange under the fair processing requirements of the DPA and General Condition 13 of the Communications Act 2003 and so should be readily available for disclosure to me.

(e) copies of any voice recordings held in respect of calls made to Orange between XX and XX DATE from the telephone numbers XXXX, and received from ORANGE between XX and XX DATE on the telephone numbers XXX.

(f) copies of any emails, memos or letters sent or received between either of the following: Orange Executive office/department, Orange legal department, the chief executive's office, external parties, and me.

(g) copies of all customer service notes (whether held by the customer services team or other departments) together with an explanation in plain English of any terms or codes used.

 

I should also like to take this opportunity to ask for details of the processes which customer service staff are requited to follow when csutomers report the inaccurate or incorrect processing of their data. I should also be grateful if you could confirm Orange's policy and practice on the recording of calls made to or from Orange customer services pursuant to the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 and The Telecommunications (Lawful Business Practice) (Interception of Communications) Regulations 2000.

You have a maximum of 40 days from receipt of this request in which to comply. The 40 days will end on XXXXXX. You will be aware that the Information Commissioner expects organisations to comply with subject access requests at the earliest opportunity and that organisations should not routinely treat the 40 days as a standard response time.

 

I look forward to your reply and to receiving the data."

 

I hope this helps

 

Tadg

[buzby]

Passport? Driving Licence? Why not a DNA profile or Fingerprints and a Birth Certificate?

 

They don'r need any of this - and to supply it unasked lends to the argument that we must account for ourselves to anyone that supplies us with a service, when we ask nothing in return!

 

By all means send the letter - the cheque in payment proves who you are, and quoting your account number will provide the information required to find the account. Let's not go overboard here! Any information you involunarily provide will be sucked into their IT mill, and passed out to the CRA's. So let's be careful out there.

[tadg]

Buzby,

 

Data controllers such as Orange need to ensure they verify the identity of persons making SARs ...... the copies of passports/drivers licences should be destroyed by a data controller once identity is confirmed. NONE of the data may be passed to a CRA .....

 

If a mobile operator were simply to ask for a mobile number and accopunt number how are they to protect against say an ex-partner asking for copies of itemised bills so they can find out their ex-partners new partner?

 

In the end it is for Fuzzyfuzzy to to determine whether to send proof of id and see if Orange will simply accept mobile number and account number

[fuzzyfuzzy]

Tadg, you are a star.

 

Ill be wizing my request off to them very shortly. In the emails they have been sending to me all i have provided is my account number and a reference to their letters so it seems that they're not to fussed about ID, but wouldn't surprise me if they will be for my SAR just to be awkward.

 

Incidently, they have only 7 days to respond to my money claim. Now reading the thread Vodafone - Default removal + distress claim ***WON*** the chap mentions that he did a money claim. However, Buzby mentioned that I couldnt get a course of action through this route, only money. (Which makes sense, thanks Buzby)

 

I am just wondering as what happens re the money claim. If they dont defend it, will they then simply have to pay me the claim? I doubt they will defend it for obvious financial reasons, my thought was that this may give them a nudge to simply call me and say we will remove the 'default' - end of proceedings.

 

Should i wait before sending the SAR as this will perhaps provide me with more info on their internal notes about me and my compliant? Could come in very handy if goes to court. What do you guys reckon??

 

I have been sending them emails to which they have been replying and ignoring the question about why they waited so long, ive had around 6 replies, each one about 24-48 hours after me sending mine. I have now not had a reply for 3 weeks (I have sent them 4 emails in this time). Eitheir theyve just decided to ignore me, or, they have actually decided to keep stum until they investigate properly.

 

Anyway. Thanks for everyones help so far, the saga continues....

Edited May 7, 2009 by fuzzyfuzzy

[tadg]

Hi fuzzyfuzzy ..

 

I think Buzby and others are better placed than me to advise on moneyclaim matters .. there's some really excellent advice on this site.

 

FYI - this ICO enforcement action against talktalk may help your case and I have referred to it below. http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/library/data_protection/notices/talk_talk_telecom_en.pdf

 

Yes send you SAR now.

 

As for Orange, Simon Persoff is the Director of the Legal and Regulatory department at Orange UK. You could write a separate letter to Mr Persoff (and attach your SAR) ..... and send it by email ... it's not hard to work out email addresses .. try ... [email protected]

 

I would suggest your letter covers that you write to:

 

(a) dispute a default recorded on your credit reference file by Orange and which is causing you harm and distress. You ask that he arranges an immediate review of your case and removal of the default.

(b) report the failure of Orange to accurately and fairly process your personal data pursuant to the DPA and which as above is causing harm and distress

© report the failure of Orange to comply with its legal obligations under General Conditions 12 of the Communications Act 2003. Orange incorrectly recorded another customers name and address on its billing system for your account, resulting in Orange failing to send bills to you and so preventing you from properly managing your account/finances etc. Not only is this a breach of Principle 4 of the DPA 98, but also a breach of Condition 12 of the Communications Act.

(d) report the failure of Orange to comply with General Condition 13 of the Communications Act 2003. When Orange discovered its error, it demanded immediate payment for services allegedly used by you over XX period (though no bills had been supplied to permit you to verify these charges), and proceeded to [sUSPEND/DISCONNECT?] your services and moved to debt collection actions and to record the default, despite requests from you that matters be addressed properly [EXPLAIN IF YOU DISCUSSED ISSUES WITH PAYING IMMEDIATELY, OFFERED TO PAY IN INSTALLMENTS ETC). You are of the view that the actions of Orange were not proportionate, that Orange failed to give due warning, and failed to provide due written warning of the measures it may take to effect payment or disconnection, in breach of General Conditions 12 and 13 of the Communications Act.

(e) ask whether Orange complies with guidance from the ICO, 'Filing defaults with credit reference agencies', the 'Guidance Note on Credit Referencing' (published in October 1995 and which has not been revoked) and the guidance note 'Data Protection Guidance on Debt Tracing and Collection' (published in 1998 and not revoked). If so, you would be pleased to learn how the requirements of both have been communicated to the appropriate business units and effective policies and procedures developed and implemented. It is your view that Orange has failed to comply with the DPA and ICO guidance.

 

You note that the Information Commissioner took enforcement action in January 2008 against TalkTalk Telecom Ltd for identical breaches of the DPA experienced by you in this matter with Orange. It is unfortunate that you have felt compelled to now report your case to the ICO given the failures and incompetence experienced to date - you will use any findings by the ICO in legal proceedings should Orange fail to correct matters immediately.

 

(f) ask Orange to cease processing your data in a manner that is causing you unwarranted harm and distress (including the disclosure of data reported to CRAs) pursuant to your right under Section 10 of the DPA 98. It is your view that the recording of the default has caused and continues to cause you distress that is unwarranted and that it has and continues to damage your financial status among other lenders and providers of communications services, and in turn prevents you securing loans and services at preferential rates etc. [EXPLAIN IF THIS AHD LED TO FINANCIAL LOSS AT ALL e.g. have you been declined a loan at a cheaper rate that has cost you £ ....

 

It is your view that had Orange accurately and correctly processed your personal data, had it complied with the General Conditions and had Orange Customer Services acted professionally, competently and in an effective manner then your current distress and harm would not have materialised.

 

(g) you are so concerned by your experiences that you have asked OFCOM to review Orange's compliance with the General Condiitons 12 and 13 in order that other customers do not suffer the same distress, harm and incompetence as you

 

[END THE LETTER BY stating that you are surprised and distressed by the manner in which Orange has handled matters to date, and by the abrupt and dismissive manner of those with whom you have recently dealt)

 

 

Good luck with your case ... if I can help any further let me know.

Tadg