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Newbie needs advice on default and copy of CCA


SickOfBanks111
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Hi I'm new to the forum and hoping you can help me.

 

In 1995 i opened an account at Natwest and got a credit card with them.

Round about 2000 I took out a couple of loans with them as well.

 

I had a couple of other credit cards as well. A few years back I was having money problems and was struggling to make all the payments. I contacted all the companies and explained and asked to make reduced payments. All accepted apart from Natwest loan. The amounts I had offered to the other companies was based on all companies accepting what i had offered, and as Natwest loan wouldn't accept the offer and continued to take the full amount each month, payments started to bounce.

 

Natwest piled on the charges and i failed to make all payments.

 

The credit card account was passed to Westcot and i have since found out they registered a default notice on my credit file.

 

I've been writing to Natwest to try and get further info. I asked them for signed copy of the CCA.

 

They wrote back advising that they are obliged to provide you wht a "true" copy of the credit agreement and statement of financial information relating to the account. They say that in terms of CCA copy document regulations , the "true" copy requirement can be satisified by providing a copy agreement at the date the card agreement was made and providing that plus a copy of the current terms of the card agreement.

 

So, what i want help with is:

 

Are they allowed to send me this as the agreement was made so long ago? Or should they still have to provide me with a copy of the agreement i signed?

 

As they were unable to provide the signed copy, should i now ask Westcot to provide it?

 

If I need to contact Westcot and they are unable to provide it, can i then dispute it and ask them to remove the default from my credit file and stop making payments whilst it is being disputed?

 

Can I hold Natwest accountable in any way? in terms of the default resulting as they refused to accept reduced payments on the loan?

 

Is it worth asking for a signed CCA for the current loan i have with Natwest. I took it out in 2003/04.

 

I fully intend to pay the money i owe back, but it would be a worry lifted to be able to pay it back at a rate that suits me.

 

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Edited by SickOfBanks111
bad spelling :-s
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Don't know if i am doing the right thing or not, but as i have got absolutely no where with Natwest, I am going to contact the Dect Collection Agency the debt was passed to.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what i should put?

Also, does it matter that i have been maing payments to the DCA for the past year or so?

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Send a CCA section 77 request off for the loan and i strongly advise forwarding the SAR below.

 

 

Date ******

Subject Access Request (Data Protection Act 1998

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Account Numbers:

 

As per the section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998, "Subject Access Request", I hereby request that you supply me with any and all historical data in your possession which, in any way appertains to me, including (but not exhaustively) a true copy of the original signed executed agreement; statements of account; duplicate statements and/or print outs of all account transactions; all internal and external correspondence sent or received by you including memo’s, logs, notes, screen prints and transcripts; notes of manual interventions such as telephone attendants' notes, internal and external emails; any other information held on any/all types of media in any relevant filing system (microfiche included). I should receive your full compliance within a maximum of 40 days of this letter being recorded as delivered by Royal Mail.

 

I enclose the statutory fee of £10 by way of a cheque and remind you that you have a total of 40 days in which to comply from the delivered date of this request.

 

May I confirm, as the ICO has already, that the 40 day time limit is not to be used as a guide for responding to the request but is the maximum period allowed in law and that whenever possible a data controller should proceed with all possible expediency in fulfilling such a Subject Access Request.

 

I await your timely responses

 

Yours faithfully

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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Thanks so much for replying Paul. Cool avatar!!!

 

The loan was taken out in about 2005 and i'm still making payments to natwest for that one. Is it likely that they won't be able to produce a signed copy of the CCA? and if they can't, what exactly does that mean?

 

The credit card debt is with a dca and i have a default on my credit file, been writing to natwest regarding the credit card side of things for almost a year now and they have been unable to provide a signed copy of the CCA. I have given natwest ample opportunity to supply it, but they just sent me a generic agreement. As it is now with DCA, do i have to contact the dca and ask them to provide a copy? or can i contact the dca advising natwest are unable to provide it and therefore i am disputing it? does that mean i can cease payments for the time being and the default will be removed whilst it is in dispute?

 

thanks for any help you can give me guys.

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Thanks so much for replying Paul. Cool avatar!!!

 

The loan was taken out in about 2005 and i'm still making payments to natwest for that one. Is it likely that they won't be able to produce a signed copy of the CCA? and if they can't, what exactly does that mean?

 

The credit card debt is with a dca and i have a default on my credit file, been writing to natwest regarding the credit card side of things for almost a year now and they have been unable to provide a signed copy of the CCA. I have given natwest ample opportunity to supply it, but they just sent me a generic agreement. As it is now with DCA, do i have to contact the dca and ask them to provide a copy? or can i contact the dca advising natwest are unable to provide it and therefore i am disputing it? does that mean i can cease payments for the time being and the default will be removed whilst it is in dispute?

 

thanks for any help you can give me guys.

 

Could you scan and post the copy

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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These are what i received in relation to the credit card, which is now with DCA and default on my credit file:

 

This is the covering letter:

 

natwest letter.jpg

 

and these were enclosed:

 

natwest copy of new card letter.jpg

 

Natwest copy of new card letter page 2.jpg

 

natwest terms side 1.jpg

 

Natwest terms side 2.jpg

 

Does everything look correct or should they have had to provide me with a signed copy?

 

I haven't taken any action about the loan yet. I'm still making payments, but am struggling to maintain the payments. I'm just worried if i rock the boat they will say they want it all repaid now and take my overdraft off me, which i am never out of.

natwest letter.jpg

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Also, can i dispute the default notice Natwest has put on my credit file regarding this debt?

 

I'm due to make my monthly payment to the Debt Collection Agency the debt was passed to next week. Can i contact them and tell them what I have requested from NAtwest and what documents Natwest have provided to me and i am ceasing payments until either Natwest or the DCA send me a copy of an agreement with my signature on it?

 

Also, where do i stand if i do stop payments and dispute it? When the debt was passed to the DCA, they stopped charging me interest. If i stop making payments and say i'm disputing it, will the debt get passed back to Natwest? Will Natwest start charging me interest?

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Can i contact them and tell them what I have requested from NAtwest and what documents Natwest have provided to me and i am ceasing payments until either Natwest or the DCA send me a copy of an agreement with my signature on it?

 

Ok, they don't actually have to send you a copy of the agreement with your signature on it....see below:

 

s3(2) of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 as follows;

“There may be omitted from any such copy—

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);”

 

However, to enforce in court they they will need to produce a signed document that contains all of the prescribed terms whether or not in the prescribed form.

 

Have you sent off the SAR as PaulWlton has suggested above?

 

This is your best bet as this should disclose all of the documentation that they hold.

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

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These are the prescribed terms for running credit (eg credit cards)....

 

SCHEDULE 6

PRESCRIBED TERMS FOR THE PURPOSES OFSECTIONS 61(1)(A)AND127(3)OF THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974

 

 

PRESCRIBED TERMS

 

 

Credit limit

3. Agreements for running-account credit.

 

A term stating the credit limit or the manner in

which it will be determined or that there is no

credit limit.

 

 

 

Rate of interest

4. Agreements for—(a) running-account credit

 

A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit

to be provided under the agreement.

 

 

Repayments

5. Consumer credit agreements.

 

A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his

obligations under the agreement to make the

repayments, which may be expressed by reference

to a combination of any of the following--

(a) number of repayments;

(b) amount of repayments;

© frequency and timing of repayments;

(d) dates of repayments;

(e) the manner in which any of the above may be

determined;

or in any other way, and any power of the creditor

to vary what is payable.

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

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I've got a similar issue with CitiCards as they simply sent me a copy of their latest terms and conditions. I have disputed that and am not making any payments in the meantime.

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

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Also, can i dispute the default notice Natwest has put on my credit file regarding this debt?

 

Default notices are not the easiest items to get removed (plenty of threads to read) and I would be inclined to concentrate on other matters first and worry about challenging the default later.

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

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Thanks for all the info Welshmam.

I've just cancelled my standing order/monthly payment to the DCA.

I'm just hoping they don't pass the debt back to Natwest, who start to pile interest on it. I am just about to contact the DCA and advise them that i am disputing it as Natwest cannot provide me with a signed copy of the agreement. Hope its the right thing to do

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Ok, they don't actually have to send you a copy of the agreement with your signature on it....see below:

 

 

 

However, to enforce in court they they will need to produce a signed document that contains all of the prescribed terms whether or not in the prescribed form.

 

Have you sent off the SAR as PaulWlton has suggested above?

 

This is your best bet as this should disclose all of the documentation that they hold.

 

Signed by who (me or the bank)?

 

No not sent the SAR yet? I'm just trying to research it? What will the SAR achieve that the CCA request doesn't?

 

Thanks for all your help. I need it; i don't have a clue what i am doing!!

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Signed by who (me or the bank)?

 

No not sent the SAR yet? I'm just trying to research it? What will the SAR achieve that the CCA request doesn't?

 

Thanks for all your help. I need it; i don't have a clue what i am doing!!

 

The SAR should realise all of the information that they hold on you. However, it is advisable to specifically list all of the documents you need. PaulWlton has included these in his template letter but you may have other specific requests.

 

a true copy of the original signed executed agreement; statements of account; duplicate statements and/or print outs of all account transactions; all internal and external correspondence sent or received by you including memo’s, logs, notes, screen prints and transcripts; notes of manual interventions such as telephone attendants' notes, internal and external emails; any other information held on any/all types of media in any relevant filing system (microfiche included).
To enforce they need a document signed by YOU that contains all of the prescribed terms listed above.

 

Don't sign the SAR, print and get a postal order rather than a cheque.

 

More often than not they will ask for further identification which is somewhat ironic as they are happy enough to send threatening letters!! :mad:

 

EDIT: Also ask them for a copy of your default notice.

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

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Sorry for being thick!! :(

I don't understand what this means.

 

 

Don't be silly!! We all have to start somewhere...:p

 

All agreements regulated by the Consumer Credit Act must contain certain pieces of information which are referred to as "prescribed terms."

 

For example, how much credit you have, how much interest they are going to charge you and how you pay etc.

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

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Thanks for all the info Welshmam.

I've just cancelled my standing order/monthly payment to the DCA.

I'm just hoping they don't pass the debt back to Natwest, who start to pile interest on it. I am just about to contact the DCA and advise them that i am disputing it as Natwest cannot provide me with a signed copy of the agreement. Hope its the right thing to do

 

OK, have you sent them the account in dispute letter??

 

If not then I would send something along these lines...but again, amend to suit....Read carefully and research the relevant sections of the act and the regs so that you understand what you are saying!!

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending your companies current Terms and conditions. I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues.

 

In either case, please confirm that you have, in your possession, a credit agreement that is in all ways fully compliant with the Consumer Credit At 1974, as amended, and the subsequent regulations made there under.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, if you are in possession of such a document, but are unable to supply me with a true copy of it, please outline your reasons why you are unable to supply it to me in your reply.

 

Further more, I respectfully request that you provide me by return a copy of the credit agreement which bears my signature. I require this as I have reason to believe that there may be discrepancies within the agreement which may leave it improperly executed.

 

I look forward to your reply and would ask for a response by XXX

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

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OK, have you sent them the account in dispute letter??

 

If not then I would send something along these lines...but again, amend to suit....Read carefully and research the relevant sections of the act and the regs so that you understand what you are saying!!

 

Do I send the dispute letter to Natwest Card Services or to the DCA?

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Do I send the dispute letter to Natwest Card Services or to the DCA?

 

I would send it to NatWest as it is unclear if they have sold the debt on or the DCA is acting on their behalf

 

Nonetheless, you requested the alleged CCA from them so I would respond back to them as above.

 

Also, did you take the agreement out before 6 April 2007??

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

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I would send it to NatWest as it is unclear if they have sold the debt on or the DCA is acting on their behalf

 

Nonetheless, you requested the alleged CCA from them so I would respond back to them as above.

 

Also, did you take the agreement out before 6 April 2007??

 

 

Hi Welshmam

 

Natwest say the haven't sold it on. It has been passed to Westcot though.

I got the card in 1997 or 98.

 

Thanks for all your help.

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Hi Welshmam

 

Natwest say the haven't sold it on. It has been passed to Westcot though.

I got the card in 1997 or 98.

 

Thanks for all your help.

 

You'll be fine then!! :D

 

The most important thing is to keep calm and not let them wind you up. The psychological effects of being in debt are immense and creditors play on this.

 

Best of luck!!

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

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  • 1 month later...

I have contacted the DCA and advised I have contacted Natwest asking for a signed copy of the CCA, as i am disputing it.

They have put the account on hold until Natwest has responded to my request for OAD???? Does anyone know what OAD stands for?

 

I'm sending a SAR request today. Can anyone clarify on the following for me?

My main bank account is with Natwest, I have had 3 or 4 loans with Natwest (all paid off apart from 1) and had the credit card with Natwest (which they recorded the default on and passed to DCA). Will a SAR request get me information on all of these? Or would i have to send 1 for the Credit Card, 1 for the bank account and 1 for the loan?

 

AND......

 

Can i send the bit about them not providing me with a true copy of the cca in with the SAR request letter? or should they be done separately?

Edited by SickOfBanks111
had an afterthought
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The only OAD I can think of is Operationally Available Data...but they shouldn't really be using acronymns that you can't understand!!

 

Send one SAR but make sure you quote all reference numbers on the letter.

 

Best not to confuse the two requests as they are made under different pieces of legislation. If you want to chase up your CCA request do it on a separate letter enclosed with the SAR.

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

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