Jump to content

  • Tweets

  • Posts

  • Our picks

    • Hermes lost parcel.. Read more at https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/422615-hermes-lost-parcel/
      • 49 replies
    • Oven repair. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/427690-oven-repair/&do=findComment&comment=5073391
      • 49 replies
    • I came across this discussion recently and just wanted to give my experience of A Shade Greener that may help others regarding their boiler finance agreement.
       
      We had a 10yr  finance contract for a boiler fitted July 2015.
       
      After a summer of discontent with ASG I discovered that if you have paid HALF the agreement or more you can legally return the boiler to them at no cost to yourself. I've just returned mine the feeling is liberating.
       
      It all started mid summer during lockdown when they refused to service our boiler because we didn't have a loft ladder or flooring installed despite the fact AS installed the boiler. and had previosuly serviced it without issue for 4yrs. After consulting with an independent installer I was informed that if this was the case then ASG had breached building regulations,  this was duly reported to Gas Safe to investigate and even then ASG refused to accept blame and repeatedly said it was my problem. Anyway Gas Safe found them in breach of building regs and a compromise was reached.
       
      A month later and ASG attended to service our boiler but in the process left the boiler unusuable as it kept losing pressure not to mention they had damaged the filling loop in the process which they said was my responsibilty not theres and would charge me to repair, so generous of them! Soon after reporting the fault I got a letter stating it was time we arranged a powerflush on our heating system which they make you do after 5 years even though there's nothing in the contract that states this. Coincidence?
       
      After a few heated exchanges with ASG (pardon the pun) I decided to pull the plug and cancel our agreement.
       
      The boiler was removed and replaced by a reputable installer,  and the old boiler was returned to ASG thus ending our contract with them. What's mad is I saved in excess of £1000 in the long run and got a new boiler with a brand new 12yr warranty. 
       
      You only have to look at TrustPilot to get an idea of what this company is like.
       
        • Thanks
      • 3 replies
    • Dazza a few months ago I discovered a good friend of mine who had ten debts with cards and catalogues which he was slavishly paying off at detriment to his own family quality of life, and I mean hardship, not just absence of second holidays or flat screen TV's.
       
      I wrote to all his creditors asking for supporting documents and not one could provide any material that would allow them to enforce the debt.
       
      As a result he stopped paying and they have been unable to do anything, one even admitted it was unenforceable.
       
      If circumstances have got to the point where you are finding it unmanageable you must ask yourself why you feel the need to pay.  I guarantee you that these companies have built bad debt into their business model and no one over there is losing any sleep over your debt to them!  They will see you as a victim and cash cow and they will be reluctant to discuss final offers, only ways to keep you paying with threats of court action or seizing your assets if you have any.
       
      They are not your friends and you owe them no loyalty or moral duty, that must remain only for yourself and your family.
       
      If it was me I would send them all a CCA request.   I would bet that not one will provide the correct response and you can quite legally stop paying them until such time as they do provide a response.   Even when they do you should check back here as they mostly send dodgy photo copies or generic rubbish that has no connection with your supposed debt.
       
      The money you are paying them should, as far as you are able, be put to a savings account for yourself and as a means of paying of one of these fleecers should they ever manage to get to to the point of a successful court judgement.  After six years they will not be able to start court action and that money will then become yours.
       
      They will of course pursue you for the funds and pass your file around various departments of their business and out to third parties.
       
      Your response is that you should treat it as a hobby.  I have numerous files of correspondence each faithfully organised showing the various letters from different DCA;s , solicitors etc with a mix of threats, inducements and offers.   It is like my stamp collection and I show it to anyone who is interested!
        • Thanks
        • Like

Citi Card CCA Received - What a Load of Garbage!!


Please note that this topic has not had any new posts for the last 3664 days.

If you are trying to post a different story then you should start your own new thread. Posting on this thread is likely to mean that you won't get the help and advice that you need.

If you are trying to post information which is relevant to the story in this thread then please flag it up to the site team and they will allow you to post.

Thank you

Recommended Posts

Update...further to the above which I posted on 22 July 2009, I have now received another letter from Citi, thanking me for my "RECENT" CCA request :confused: (actually requested in March!!!) and confirming that their specialist team are still collating the documents.

 

I really give up with these chancers...what planet are they on?!! :evil:

 

Ditto, only I had the same letter sent twice. Does that mean they are looking twice as hard for mine.

Btw I havent made a recent request, unless February was recent, still they couldnt find it then, maybe there is a more effeicient office boy on the case.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 77
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Its funny, because mines been assigned elsewhere - and Citi have sent me two letters today stating that they are looking for it, probably due to a complaint to the ICO or request from 1st Credit.

 

So their arguement doesn't really hold water. Certainly they should be supplying it, if the company to which they assigned the account doesn't have it.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Identical letter number 2 arrived this morning...at least I don't feel left out now!! :rolleyes:

 

Am also wondering if, in addition to Citi's licence renewal (which Enron highlighted on a similar thread) there's an element of scare tactics going on... i.e. We do really have your CCA you know so you'd better cough up some cash before it registers on your credit file!!

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

MBNA Cards

 

CitiCard

M&S and More

Link to post
Share on other sites

Believe me Citi wouldn't be sending that letter out on their own accord, some arm twisting has gone on.

 

It's true they could have compliant executed agreements on file, but without being able to see them we don't know, likewise without Citi sending copies out of those executed agreements they shouldn't have been enforcing agreements against their customers as they did.

 

Interesting to note that Lloyds TSB Bank Plc has also been sending out recent Terms & Conditions in response to requested for executed agreements - so we could see another institution in hot water over their practices.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Believe me Citi wouldn't be sending that letter out on their own accord, some arm twisting has gone on.

 

I do!! ;)

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

MBNA Cards

 

CitiCard

M&S and More

Link to post
Share on other sites
.

 

Interesting to note that Lloyds TSB Bank Plc has also been sending out recent Terms & Conditions in response to requested for executed agreements - so we could see another institution in hot water over their practices.

 

...also Barclays.... they do nothing but send out recent t&c.

 

S.

Are You as Anonymous on CAG as You Think You Are? *Link*

 

The CAG is a free help site,should you be offered help that requires payment,please report it to site team.

 

Deal with your debts:

STEP ONE - Dont Panic! | STEP TWO - Priority & Non Priority Debts | STEP THREE - Personal Budget Sheet | STEP FOUR - A SAFE bank Account | STEP FIVE - Dealing with Priority Debts | STEP SIX - Non-priority Debts | STEP SEVEN - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt1 | STEP EIGHT - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt2 | STEP NINE - Perils of Consolidation | STEP TEN - RE-Evaluate Frequently

 

***** SERIOUSLY IN DEBT, DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO, TRY NationalDebtLine's MoneySteps *****

 

 

IMPORTANT: Please take my advice in the spirit it is given and on the basis that I am expressing my opinion, These opinions are not endorsed by CAG in anyway and are offered informally without prejudice or warranty of any kind. These opinions are solely based upon the knowledge I've gained from this fantastic site and life in general. I have NO legal training.

Link to post
Share on other sites
...also Barclays.... they do nothing but send out recent t&c.

 

S.

 

I didn't even get that from M&S Shadow...just a letter stating that they couldn't find my agreement and realised that it would be unenforceable in court!! :D

 

Didn't stop them passing it to a debt collector though and a stroppy chappy in customer services stated that they would put me to "strict proof" that I hadn't received my CCA (you what??:confused: )

 

Anyhow, I digress and am in danger of hijacking my own thread!! :p

 

Back to Citi matters...

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

MBNA Cards

 

CitiCard

M&S and More

Link to post
Share on other sites

Are we seeing something of an industry wide approach to dealing with s78(1) then.

 

It's stupid that they have all seen fit to send out recent T&C, as the copy document regulations are very clear.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Are we seeing something of an industry wide approach to dealing with s78(1) then.

 

It's stupid that they have all seen fit to send out recent T&C, as the copy document regulations are very clear.

 

I believe so. There appears to be an element of contempt I feel when dealing with CCA requests. There's an automatic assumption that you want to "evade" paying.

 

On a practical level though, I imagine that there must be considerable man power/archive retrieval issues due to the sheer volume of requests being made. Also, the costs of providing a CCA must far outweigh the £1 fee payable...not that I'll be losing any sleep over it of course!! :p

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

MBNA Cards

 

CitiCard

M&S and More

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, they have nothing to lose. The FOS will do nothing about this, and there's nothing we can do about it without taking Court action - in which case the Court decides they aren't seeking enforcement of the agreement, as we bring the action against them, rather than them against us. And so it goes on.

 

The whole system needs a revamp to protect the consumer, as companies that know they can't comply with the Act aren't taking enforcement action as a result. In the meantime, they Default you and it effects your life.

 

BTW are you aware of the Unenforceability cases that are on hold pending an outcome of test cases? Covers exactly this subject; (you might want to jump to the last few pages ;))

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/198059-unenforceability-cases-hold-until.html

  • Haha 1

Always happy to help where I can!

:lol:

Beware of legal advice given on a private forum - do you REALLY know who is posting? Are they REALLY accountable for their posts? What if you follow their advice and get something wrong?

It was Winston Churchill who said; "Democracy is the worst way to run a country except for all the others"

 

Advice and comments posted by car2403 are offered purely without prejudice. They reflect only my personal opinion and do not represent the opinion of this forum or it's management. You should always seek legal advice from a qualified legal advisor. As a member of the site team, I disable reputation - reputation points mean nothing, please check my posting credentials yourself and make an informed decision. You shouldn't PM me and await a reply - I may be too late with a response. No replies will be given in Private Messages - just as with getting advice from the forum, getting advice via Private Messages is dangerous. CAG is about sharing successes so others can follow your example, this is primarily why I'm here, so please don't be offended if I don't offer replies in PM that doesn't comply with this. Help CAG to help others by keeping your thread up to date.

 

 

USEFUL LINKS; New User Guide to CAG | Can't find what you're looking for? | Intro to Consumer Credit Litigation | Is My Agreement Enforceable | Default (Surleybonds) Template Letter | Defaults - background, removal methods, challenges and taking a claim to Court | Digital Signature Guide | Overdrafts and the CCA

Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW are you aware of the Unenforceability cases that are on hold pending an outcome of test cases? Covers exactly this subject; (you might want to jump to the last few pages ;))

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/198059-unenforceability-cases-hold-until.html

 

Yes, thank you Car...I am subscribed to this thread and awaiting the outcome(s) with interest.

 

At last count I had circa 6 defaults (one from Citi) and that doesn't include any that may have been added by DCA's in the interim. However, not one of my creditors has produced an enforceable CCA. The closest has been a rather illegible MBNA agreement with terms allegedly on the rear. Strangely, my SAR failed to produce this "rear" and my subsequent letter asking for confirmation that it did actually exist has rather conveniently been ignored!! :mad:

 

Hence, the use of enforcement via credit reporting is high on my agenda particularly as it has prevented me from obtaining a business bank account. I just hope that common sense prevails in the High Court as adverse credit reporting has all too often been used as an unfair weapon against the consumer.

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

MBNA Cards

 

CitiCard

M&S and More

Link to post
Share on other sites
I didn't even get that from M&S Shadow...just a letter stating that they couldn't find my agreement and realised that it would be unenforceable in court!! :D

 

Didn't stop them passing it to a debt collector though and a stroppy chappy in customer services stated that they would put me to "strict proof" that I hadn't received my CCA (you what??:confused: )

 

Anyhow, I digress and am in danger of hijacking my own thread!! :p

 

Back to Citi matters...

 

i got a letter today from M * S stating that if i disagreed that they had supplied the t & C's at the outset of the agreement then they would put me to strict proof@@

 

now there's a novel proposition- put someone to strict proof that nothing happened!

 

i wonder if the bloke that wrote the letter is taking any law exams soon?

Link to post
Share on other sites
i got a letter today from M * S stating that if i disagreed that they had supplied the t & C's at the outset of the agreement then they would put me to strict proof@@

 

now there's a novel proposition- put someone to strict proof that nothing happened!

 

i wonder if the bloke that wrote the letter is taking any law exams soon?

 

It's a classic case in point of a little knowledge being dangerous!! :p

 

Obviously I can't name names on this open forum Diddy, but if it's the same guy who wrote to me then he's the one who reduced me to tears on the phone a little while back (before I found this site).

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

MBNA Cards

 

CitiCard

M&S and More

Link to post
Share on other sites
It's a classic case in point of a little knowledge being dangerous!! :p

 

Obviously I can't name names on this open forum Diddy, but if it's the same guy who wrote to me then he's the one who reduced me to tears on the phone a little while back (before I found this site).

 

its actually signed by debra richards, to whom i shall point out the inherent difficulty in proving a negative!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

hi all, i've also recieved a CCA fron citi card:

 

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk278/yid-old-boy/002-1.jpg

 

in paragraph 1 they state that "This copy agreement does not include the signature box, signature or date of signature as in accordance with regulation 3(2)(b)(ii) of consumer credit )cancellation notices and copies of documents) Regulations 1983: we are not required to provide them"

 

IS THIS CORRECT ? IF SO WHATS THE POINT OF A CCA ?

Link to post
Share on other sites
hi all, i've also recieved a CCA fron citi card:

 

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk278/yid-old-boy/002-1.jpg

 

in paragraph 1 they state that "This copy agreement does not include the signature box, signature or date of signature as in accordance with regulation 3(2)(b)(ii) of consumer credit )cancellation notices and copies of documents) Regulations 1983: we are not required to provide them"

 

IS THIS CORRECT ? IF SO WHATS THE POINT OF A CCA ?

 

Because the point of getting the agreement to look at is to see what terms you actually signed up to, not to check your signature. Also I believe that this particular part was included way back when photocopiers were not available, so if anything had to be sent as a copy it was done by hand. They would not have been physically able to send you a copy with your signature, and it's just carried on from then.

 

As has been pointed out many times on here, banks will store documents - particularly for older accounts - in vast archival warehouses. Getting them out is potentially very time consuming and costly for them. Far better then from their point of view to send out something that looks like the agreement you would have signed than to spend time and money getting the real one out to copy. This also has the added benefit that if someone who does not have too much knowledge is told 'this is your agreement and it's enforceable', they may well just accept it.

 

Of course this is all well and good in the land where banks are moral and trustworthy. What we end up with is a blank 2009 agreement which is apparently what we would have signed up to in 1995.

 

This they can not do. Although they can omit sigs etc, the copy must be the same in form and content to the one you would have signed when you opened the account. They can not get away with sending anything else as it means they have not complied. They must also send you the terms relating to that agreement at the time it was signed (how else do you know that you allowed them to vary the terms which they undoubtedly will have?), and current terms as varied.

 

There are other bits and bobs but these three are the biggies.

 

Without seeing a signed agreement it is much harder to gauge what they have, but in order to be sure you need to get an SAR out to them and specifically ask for the agreement to be included. They have to send the paper you signed in this (although that still doesn't mean they will - remember, laws don't apply to banks!!). You can also go down the CPR route (again, they have to comply but frequently don't).

 

The CCA is a very good starting point though as if it ever gets to court you can show you have done everything possible to try and get hold of this agreement, and that they have been completely obstructive in your efforts.

 

One more thing - even if they do send you that blank agreement which is definitely from the time you opened your account with everything else required, they can't then turn round and say it's enforceable. For them to do that only your signature will do. They have complied with the CCA1974 if they do the above, but they have not shown that they hold an enforceable agreement for your account.

Time flies like an arrow...

Fruit flies like a banana.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Because the point of getting the agreement to look at is to see what terms you actually signed up to, not to check your signature. Also I believe that this particular part was included way back when photocopiers were not available, so if anything had to be sent as a copy it was done by hand. They would not have been physically able to send you a copy with your signature, and it's just carried on from then.

 

As has been pointed out many times on here, banks will store documents - particularly for older accounts - in vast archival warehouses. Getting them out is potentially very time consuming and costly for them. Far better then from their point of view to send out something that looks like the agreement you would have signed than to spend time and money getting the real one out to copy. This also has the added benefit that if someone who does not have too much knowledge is told 'this is your agreement and it's enforceable', they may well just accept it.

 

Of course this is all well and good in the land where banks are moral and trustworthy. What we end up with is a blank 2009 agreement which is apparently what we would have signed up to in 1995.

 

This they can not do. Although they can omit sigs etc, the copy must be the same in form and content to the one you would have signed when you opened the account. They can not get away with sending anything else as it means they have not complied. They must also send you the terms relating to that agreement at the time it was signed (how else do you know that you allowed them to vary the terms which they undoubtedly will have?), and current terms as varied.

 

There are other bits and bobs but these three are the biggies.

 

Without seeing a signed agreement it is much harder to gauge what they have, but in order to be sure you need to get an SAR out to them and specifically ask for the agreement to be included. They have to send the paper you signed in this (although that still doesn't mean they will - remember, laws don't apply to banks!!). You can also go down the CPR route (again, they have to comply but frequently don't).

 

The CCA is a very good starting point though as if it ever gets to court you can show you have done everything possible to try and get hold of this agreement, and that they have been completely obstructive in your efforts.

 

One more thing - even if they do send you that blank agreement which is definitely from the time you opened your account with everything else required, they can't then turn round and say it's enforceable. For them to do that only your signature will do. They have complied with the CCA1974 if they do the above, but they have not shown that they hold an enforceable agreement for your account.

 

with respect, they are NOT obliged to send you ANY document you signed in response to a SAR request, in fact as far as i am aware they are not obliged to send ANY original document

 

the SAR requires them to send the INFORMATION they hold about you and NOT the actual documents

 

thus they can simply type it out

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
with respect, they are NOT obliged to send you ANY document you signed in response to a SAR request, in fact as far as i am aware they are not obliged to send ANY original document

 

the SAR requires them to send the INFORMATION they hold about you and NOT the actual documents

 

thus they can simply type it out

 

quite right Diddy, this is what they did for my online application after a SAR request :-)

 

rep added.

 

S.

Are You as Anonymous on CAG as You Think You Are? *Link*

 

The CAG is a free help site,should you be offered help that requires payment,please report it to site team.

 

Deal with your debts:

STEP ONE - Dont Panic! | STEP TWO - Priority & Non Priority Debts | STEP THREE - Personal Budget Sheet | STEP FOUR - A SAFE bank Account | STEP FIVE - Dealing with Priority Debts | STEP SIX - Non-priority Debts | STEP SEVEN - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt1 | STEP EIGHT - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt2 | STEP NINE - Perils of Consolidation | STEP TEN - RE-Evaluate Frequently

 

***** SERIOUSLY IN DEBT, DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO, TRY NationalDebtLine's MoneySteps *****

 

 

IMPORTANT: Please take my advice in the spirit it is given and on the basis that I am expressing my opinion, These opinions are not endorsed by CAG in anyway and are offered informally without prejudice or warranty of any kind. These opinions are solely based upon the knowledge I've gained from this fantastic site and life in general. I have NO legal training.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Same here, when I did a subject access request for a copy of the original executed agreement - I received a sheet with the details typed out that were on the application.

 

However for s78(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974, they should be sending you a copy of the executed agreement (executed in legal terminology being signed), sure they can with hold the signature, signature box and signature date in accordance with the copy document regulations - that said the document must be the one you signed, or at least the exact details from the signed agreement which they can provide retyped in text format.

 

The problem for Citi is that s78(1) specifically states "executed agreement", so terms and conditions will not do.

 

Again they seem not to be complying with the law, as their recent letter to those who complained to the OFT simply states "request for a copy of your agreement". Which means they will likely continue to send out T&C to those who make such requests.

 

I would highly recommend anyone not receiving a copy of their executed agreement after making a s78(1) CCA request, to continue complaining to the Office of Fair Trading.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've got a feeling because of their wording they'll produce another set of Terms & Conditions.

 

That these will potentially appear after they've been granted renewal of their credit license.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

Link to post
Share on other sites
with respect, they are NOT obliged to send you ANY document you signed in response to a SAR request, in fact as far as i am aware they are not obliged to send ANY original document

 

the SAR requires them to send the INFORMATION they hold about you and NOT the actual documents

 

thus they can simply type it out

 

Sorry, you're quite right - I had Citi type it out as well:oops:

 

That said, out of about 15 SAR's, the only ones to send anything other than a copy of a document have been citi, which I think speaks volumes. Perhaps they have enough time on their hands to have some minion type out all the information rather than simply photocopying the (probably completely unenforceable) agreement?

 

In my opinion it still adds a nice bit of weight to any court appearance if they decide to type out a response rather than send you what you actually asked for, and personally I think any way you can show a judge that you've tried to get the information from them time and again can only be a good thing!

Time flies like an arrow...

Fruit flies like a banana.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If your "executed agreement" is an old one there is likely to be issues with it, after all why with the original in front of you - go to the effort of retyping it, instead of just pressing the copy button on a photocopier, i'm sure that they would not go to the trouble of retyping all your cc statements.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

Link to post
Share on other sites
If your "executed agreement" is an old one there is likely to be issues with it, after all why with the original in front of you - go to the effort of retyping it, instead of just pressing the copy button on a photocopier, i'm sure that they would not go to the trouble of retyping all your cc statements.

 

Yep, it only serves to make you suspicious!

Time flies like an arrow...

Fruit flies like a banana.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry, you're quite right - I had Citi type it out as well:oops:

 

That said, out of about 15 SAR's, the only ones to send anything other than a copy of a document have been citi, which I think speaks volumes. Perhaps they have enough time on their hands to have some minion type out all the information rather than simply photocopying the (probably completely unenforceable) agreement?

 

In my opinion it still adds a nice bit of weight to any court appearance if they decide to type out a response rather than send you what you actually asked for, and personally I think any way you can show a judge that you've tried to get the information from them time and again can only be a good thing!

 

as you say "speaks volumes" why would any sane person spend all that time typing out something that could be copied on a photocopier within seconds................ a very good question to pose to the creditor in front of the judge methinks

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...