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Citi Card CCA Received - What a Load of Garbage!!


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Update...further to the above which I posted on 22 July 2009, I have now received another letter from Citi, thanking me for my "RECENT" CCA request :confused: (actually requested in March!!!) and confirming that their specialist team are still collating the documents.

 

I really give up with these chancers...what planet are they on?!! :evil:

 

Ditto, only I had the same letter sent twice. Does that mean they are looking twice as hard for mine.

Btw I havent made a recent request, unless February was recent, still they couldnt find it then, maybe there is a more effeicient office boy on the case.

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Its funny, because mines been assigned elsewhere - and Citi have sent me two letters today stating that they are looking for it, probably due to a complaint to the ICO or request from 1st Credit.

 

So their arguement doesn't really hold water. Certainly they should be supplying it, if the company to which they assigned the account doesn't have it.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

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Identical letter number 2 arrived this morning...at least I don't feel left out now!! :rolleyes:

 

Am also wondering if, in addition to Citi's licence renewal (which Enron highlighted on a similar thread) there's an element of scare tactics going on... i.e. We do really have your CCA you know so you'd better cough up some cash before it registers on your credit file!!

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

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Believe me Citi wouldn't be sending that letter out on their own accord, some arm twisting has gone on.

 

It's true they could have compliant executed agreements on file, but without being able to see them we don't know, likewise without Citi sending copies out of those executed agreements they shouldn't have been enforcing agreements against their customers as they did.

 

Interesting to note that Lloyds TSB Bank Plc has also been sending out recent Terms & Conditions in response to requested for executed agreements - so we could see another institution in hot water over their practices.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

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Believe me Citi wouldn't be sending that letter out on their own accord, some arm twisting has gone on.

 

I do!! ;)

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

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.

 

Interesting to note that Lloyds TSB Bank Plc has also been sending out recent Terms & Conditions in response to requested for executed agreements - so we could see another institution in hot water over their practices.

 

...also Barclays.... they do nothing but send out recent t&c.

 

S.

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...also Barclays.... they do nothing but send out recent t&c.

 

S.

 

I didn't even get that from M&S Shadow...just a letter stating that they couldn't find my agreement and realised that it would be unenforceable in court!! :D

 

Didn't stop them passing it to a debt collector though and a stroppy chappy in customer services stated that they would put me to "strict proof" that I hadn't received my CCA (you what??:confused: )

 

Anyhow, I digress and am in danger of hijacking my own thread!! :p

 

Back to Citi matters...

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

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Are we seeing something of an industry wide approach to dealing with s78(1) then.

 

It's stupid that they have all seen fit to send out recent T&C, as the copy document regulations are very clear.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

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Are we seeing something of an industry wide approach to dealing with s78(1) then.

 

It's stupid that they have all seen fit to send out recent T&C, as the copy document regulations are very clear.

 

I believe so. There appears to be an element of contempt I feel when dealing with CCA requests. There's an automatic assumption that you want to "evade" paying.

 

On a practical level though, I imagine that there must be considerable man power/archive retrieval issues due to the sheer volume of requests being made. Also, the costs of providing a CCA must far outweigh the £1 fee payable...not that I'll be losing any sleep over it of course!! :p

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

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Well, they have nothing to lose. The FOS will do nothing about this, and there's nothing we can do about it without taking Court action - in which case the Court decides they aren't seeking enforcement of the agreement, as we bring the action against them, rather than them against us. And so it goes on.

 

The whole system needs a revamp to protect the consumer, as companies that know they can't comply with the Act aren't taking enforcement action as a result. In the meantime, they Default you and it effects your life.

 

BTW are you aware of the Unenforceability cases that are on hold pending an outcome of test cases? Covers exactly this subject; (you might want to jump to the last few pages ;))

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/198059-unenforceability-cases-hold-until.html

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BTW are you aware of the Unenforceability cases that are on hold pending an outcome of test cases? Covers exactly this subject; (you might want to jump to the last few pages ;))

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/198059-unenforceability-cases-hold-until.html

 

Yes, thank you Car...I am subscribed to this thread and awaiting the outcome(s) with interest.

 

At last count I had circa 6 defaults (one from Citi) and that doesn't include any that may have been added by DCA's in the interim. However, not one of my creditors has produced an enforceable CCA. The closest has been a rather illegible MBNA agreement with terms allegedly on the rear. Strangely, my SAR failed to produce this "rear" and my subsequent letter asking for confirmation that it did actually exist has rather conveniently been ignored!! :mad:

 

Hence, the use of enforcement via credit reporting is high on my agenda particularly as it has prevented me from obtaining a business bank account. I just hope that common sense prevails in the High Court as adverse credit reporting has all too often been used as an unfair weapon against the consumer.

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

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I didn't even get that from M&S Shadow...just a letter stating that they couldn't find my agreement and realised that it would be unenforceable in court!! :D

 

Didn't stop them passing it to a debt collector though and a stroppy chappy in customer services stated that they would put me to "strict proof" that I hadn't received my CCA (you what??:confused: )

 

Anyhow, I digress and am in danger of hijacking my own thread!! :p

 

Back to Citi matters...

 

i got a letter today from M * S stating that if i disagreed that they had supplied the t & C's at the outset of the agreement then they would put me to strict proof@@

 

now there's a novel proposition- put someone to strict proof that nothing happened!

 

i wonder if the bloke that wrote the letter is taking any law exams soon?

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i got a letter today from M * S stating that if i disagreed that they had supplied the t & C's at the outset of the agreement then they would put me to strict proof@@

 

now there's a novel proposition- put someone to strict proof that nothing happened!

 

i wonder if the bloke that wrote the letter is taking any law exams soon?

 

It's a classic case in point of a little knowledge being dangerous!! :p

 

Obviously I can't name names on this open forum Diddy, but if it's the same guy who wrote to me then he's the one who reduced me to tears on the phone a little while back (before I found this site).

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

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It's a classic case in point of a little knowledge being dangerous!! :p

 

Obviously I can't name names on this open forum Diddy, but if it's the same guy who wrote to me then he's the one who reduced me to tears on the phone a little while back (before I found this site).

 

its actually signed by debra richards, to whom i shall point out the inherent difficulty in proving a negative!!

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hi all, i've also recieved a CCA fron citi card:

 

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk278/yid-old-boy/002-1.jpg

 

in paragraph 1 they state that "This copy agreement does not include the signature box, signature or date of signature as in accordance with regulation 3(2)(b)(ii) of consumer credit )cancellation notices and copies of documents) Regulations 1983: we are not required to provide them"

 

IS THIS CORRECT ? IF SO WHATS THE POINT OF A CCA ?

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hi all, i've also recieved a CCA fron citi card:

 

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk278/yid-old-boy/002-1.jpg

 

in paragraph 1 they state that "This copy agreement does not include the signature box, signature or date of signature as in accordance with regulation 3(2)(b)(ii) of consumer credit )cancellation notices and copies of documents) Regulations 1983: we are not required to provide them"

 

IS THIS CORRECT ? IF SO WHATS THE POINT OF A CCA ?

 

Because the point of getting the agreement to look at is to see what terms you actually signed up to, not to check your signature. Also I believe that this particular part was included way back when photocopiers were not available, so if anything had to be sent as a copy it was done by hand. They would not have been physically able to send you a copy with your signature, and it's just carried on from then.

 

As has been pointed out many times on here, banks will store documents - particularly for older accounts - in vast archival warehouses. Getting them out is potentially very time consuming and costly for them. Far better then from their point of view to send out something that looks like the agreement you would have signed than to spend time and money getting the real one out to copy. This also has the added benefit that if someone who does not have too much knowledge is told 'this is your agreement and it's enforceable', they may well just accept it.

 

Of course this is all well and good in the land where banks are moral and trustworthy. What we end up with is a blank 2009 agreement which is apparently what we would have signed up to in 1995.

 

This they can not do. Although they can omit sigs etc, the copy must be the same in form and content to the one you would have signed when you opened the account. They can not get away with sending anything else as it means they have not complied. They must also send you the terms relating to that agreement at the time it was signed (how else do you know that you allowed them to vary the terms which they undoubtedly will have?), and current terms as varied.

 

There are other bits and bobs but these three are the biggies.

 

Without seeing a signed agreement it is much harder to gauge what they have, but in order to be sure you need to get an SAR out to them and specifically ask for the agreement to be included. They have to send the paper you signed in this (although that still doesn't mean they will - remember, laws don't apply to banks!!). You can also go down the CPR route (again, they have to comply but frequently don't).

 

The CCA is a very good starting point though as if it ever gets to court you can show you have done everything possible to try and get hold of this agreement, and that they have been completely obstructive in your efforts.

 

One more thing - even if they do send you that blank agreement which is definitely from the time you opened your account with everything else required, they can't then turn round and say it's enforceable. For them to do that only your signature will do. They have complied with the CCA1974 if they do the above, but they have not shown that they hold an enforceable agreement for your account.

Time flies like an arrow...

Fruit flies like a banana.

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Because the point of getting the agreement to look at is to see what terms you actually signed up to, not to check your signature. Also I believe that this particular part was included way back when photocopiers were not available, so if anything had to be sent as a copy it was done by hand. They would not have been physically able to send you a copy with your signature, and it's just carried on from then.

 

As has been pointed out many times on here, banks will store documents - particularly for older accounts - in vast archival warehouses. Getting them out is potentially very time consuming and costly for them. Far better then from their point of view to send out something that looks like the agreement you would have signed than to spend time and money getting the real one out to copy. This also has the added benefit that if someone who does not have too much knowledge is told 'this is your agreement and it's enforceable', they may well just accept it.

 

Of course this is all well and good in the land where banks are moral and trustworthy. What we end up with is a blank 2009 agreement which is apparently what we would have signed up to in 1995.

 

This they can not do. Although they can omit sigs etc, the copy must be the same in form and content to the one you would have signed when you opened the account. They can not get away with sending anything else as it means they have not complied. They must also send you the terms relating to that agreement at the time it was signed (how else do you know that you allowed them to vary the terms which they undoubtedly will have?), and current terms as varied.

 

There are other bits and bobs but these three are the biggies.

 

Without seeing a signed agreement it is much harder to gauge what they have, but in order to be sure you need to get an SAR out to them and specifically ask for the agreement to be included. They have to send the paper you signed in this (although that still doesn't mean they will - remember, laws don't apply to banks!!). You can also go down the CPR route (again, they have to comply but frequently don't).

 

The CCA is a very good starting point though as if it ever gets to court you can show you have done everything possible to try and get hold of this agreement, and that they have been completely obstructive in your efforts.

 

One more thing - even if they do send you that blank agreement which is definitely from the time you opened your account with everything else required, they can't then turn round and say it's enforceable. For them to do that only your signature will do. They have complied with the CCA1974 if they do the above, but they have not shown that they hold an enforceable agreement for your account.

 

with respect, they are NOT obliged to send you ANY document you signed in response to a SAR request, in fact as far as i am aware they are not obliged to send ANY original document

 

the SAR requires them to send the INFORMATION they hold about you and NOT the actual documents

 

thus they can simply type it out

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with respect, they are NOT obliged to send you ANY document you signed in response to a SAR request, in fact as far as i am aware they are not obliged to send ANY original document

 

the SAR requires them to send the INFORMATION they hold about you and NOT the actual documents

 

thus they can simply type it out

 

quite right Diddy, this is what they did for my online application after a SAR request :-)

 

rep added.

 

S.

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Same here, when I did a subject access request for a copy of the original executed agreement - I received a sheet with the details typed out that were on the application.

 

However for s78(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974, they should be sending you a copy of the executed agreement (executed in legal terminology being signed), sure they can with hold the signature, signature box and signature date in accordance with the copy document regulations - that said the document must be the one you signed, or at least the exact details from the signed agreement which they can provide retyped in text format.

 

The problem for Citi is that s78(1) specifically states "executed agreement", so terms and conditions will not do.

 

Again they seem not to be complying with the law, as their recent letter to those who complained to the OFT simply states "request for a copy of your agreement". Which means they will likely continue to send out T&C to those who make such requests.

 

I would highly recommend anyone not receiving a copy of their executed agreement after making a s78(1) CCA request, to continue complaining to the Office of Fair Trading.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

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I've got a feeling because of their wording they'll produce another set of Terms & Conditions.

 

That these will potentially appear after they've been granted renewal of their credit license.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

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with respect, they are NOT obliged to send you ANY document you signed in response to a SAR request, in fact as far as i am aware they are not obliged to send ANY original document

 

the SAR requires them to send the INFORMATION they hold about you and NOT the actual documents

 

thus they can simply type it out

 

Sorry, you're quite right - I had Citi type it out as well:oops:

 

That said, out of about 15 SAR's, the only ones to send anything other than a copy of a document have been citi, which I think speaks volumes. Perhaps they have enough time on their hands to have some minion type out all the information rather than simply photocopying the (probably completely unenforceable) agreement?

 

In my opinion it still adds a nice bit of weight to any court appearance if they decide to type out a response rather than send you what you actually asked for, and personally I think any way you can show a judge that you've tried to get the information from them time and again can only be a good thing!

Time flies like an arrow...

Fruit flies like a banana.

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If your "executed agreement" is an old one there is likely to be issues with it, after all why with the original in front of you - go to the effort of retyping it, instead of just pressing the copy button on a photocopier, i'm sure that they would not go to the trouble of retyping all your cc statements.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

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If your "executed agreement" is an old one there is likely to be issues with it, after all why with the original in front of you - go to the effort of retyping it, instead of just pressing the copy button on a photocopier, i'm sure that they would not go to the trouble of retyping all your cc statements.

 

Yep, it only serves to make you suspicious!

Time flies like an arrow...

Fruit flies like a banana.

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Sorry, you're quite right - I had Citi type it out as well:oops:

 

That said, out of about 15 SAR's, the only ones to send anything other than a copy of a document have been citi, which I think speaks volumes. Perhaps they have enough time on their hands to have some minion type out all the information rather than simply photocopying the (probably completely unenforceable) agreement?

 

In my opinion it still adds a nice bit of weight to any court appearance if they decide to type out a response rather than send you what you actually asked for, and personally I think any way you can show a judge that you've tried to get the information from them time and again can only be a good thing!

 

as you say "speaks volumes" why would any sane person spend all that time typing out something that could be copied on a photocopier within seconds................ a very good question to pose to the creditor in front of the judge methinks

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