TFC and bills of sale

[miss ripped off]

After reading lots of info about bills of sale and car repossessions I have to ask for some advice.

 

We have a car funded by TFC (funding corporation) bought from ACF in Bristol, with high interest rates and all the rest, which due to circumsatnces we have fallen behind with our payments. TFC have sent us a default notice and instructed a enforcement office to come and collect the car this Sunday.

 

We have Checked our bill of sale against our credit agreementand found that they do not tally. The credit agreement has a much higher interest rate and payment due each month, compared to the bill of sale. The bill of Sale is also not signed by a witness. It has the address of ACF in Bristol on but no signature, name or description.

 

Does this mean that the bill of sale is void and the car not be repossessed?

Is the price we owe on the car from the credit agreement or the bill of sale?

 

Thanks for any help/advice

[brindles]

bump, any advice please.

[applecart]

Hi Miss Ripped Off,

 

Are you sure????

 

Your saying you have a copy of a Bill of Sale that is not signed?

 

Not signed by TCF or Yourself... or no signatures whatsoever?

 

From reading posts within the forum you may be already aware that; one of the criteria for the validity of a Bill of Sale or any Agreement to be properly executed is that it needs to be 'signed' by both parties.......

 

If No Signatures on Bill Of Sale .... and you can definately prove this to be so..... then it basically does not exist, and can be put in front of a Judge to confirm the position.

 

Check to see if the CCA makes reference to the Bill of Sale - if it doesn't then it it clear that the Bill of Sale was not party to the Agreement at all in the first place.

 

As sunday is only a few days away; perhaps you would consider getting an exparte injunction - this involves completing the necessary claim forms and taking it along to court with with relevant fee, asap (before Sunday)

 

or

 

Go to court to make an application for a 'time order' - which is where your plea to the Judge will be to ask for extra time to repay the loan.

 

 

Before you dash off to court - I would suggest a 'courtesy' call to TFC to ask them if they are aware that the Bill of Sale is unsigned - as they may not be aware - it maybe once you make them aware; they will immediatley realise that they have no security on your car and withdraw enforcement action.

 

If the Company despite your call to them are adamant that they are right and intend to contine with enforcement - you will need to weigh up the pros and cons because your case and circumstances and where you are up to with your payments will be personal to you.

 

Likewise if you remain undecided as to what to do, and the company are not being helpful - or money is too tight to take the matter to court right now - you may need to consider putting your vehicle into 'rehab' and catching the bus for a while until the 'dispute' is accepted by TFC and resolved.

 

The CCA would still stand in it's own right though - I attach a copy of the OFT guidelines on debt collection - please spare some time to read it; it will help you get a clearer perspective on your rights whilst in default.

oft664 Debt Collection Guidance.pdf

oft329 credit licences fitness.pdf

[postggj]

Funding Co Again

 

For A Bill Of Sale To Be Legit, It Needs To Be Registered In The High Court And Have The High Court Seal On It,

It Has To Be Signed And Witnessed

 

As A Rule The Bill Of Sale AGREEMENT Must Tall On Twelve Points.

 

When Did You Take Out The Agreement

 

Also, Knowing This Lot, The Default Notice Will Be Crap,

Can You Post It On Your Thread Minus Personel Details

Google Photo Bucket And Upload Without Thumbnails

 

I WOULD TAKE THE REPO ON SUNDAY WITH A PINCH OF SALT BUT PUT THE CAR IN A SAFE PLACE JUST TO BE SURE

[applecart]

Why must a Bill of Sale fail on as many as 12 points - can you explain?

 

The Act does not state as many points as that - so why do you say 12 points?

[miss ripped off]

Hi thanks for the advice

I know the car will be repo'd as I had an enforcement officer turn up at my house on Wednesday evening. Luckily my hubby was away on business and the car was with him.

 

As for the bill of sale it is signed by me and my husband but not by a witness.

 

I will try call TFC now and see what they say - I don't hold out much hope though.

[applecart]

Please let us know how you get on.

 

I hope it goes well for you - I have posted some info regarding debt collection agencies on another post.

 

What is the name of the 'enforcement' Company or 'man'?

[miss ripped off]

Good news - spoke to a "normal" person at TFC who has agreed a payment plan, which no one else would do, they wanted 2 months payment for the overdue account, plus a month in advance, plus charges/costs.

 

I told them I had contacted trading standards due to the incorrect bill of sale - this worried the guy he said there was no need to go down that route!

 

TFC have contacted the enforcemnt guy - ROy Morgan from trojan to stop him from collecting the car on Sunday.

 

We are still going to go ahead with requesting a copy of the registered bill of sale from the courts -which i don't think they will have and hopefully we will have a case to stop them taking the car as security.

 

Thanks for all your help/advice - i will keep you updated with any future developments.

[postggj]

hi miss ripped off

as it costs money to register a bill of sale in the high court, it gets neglected a lot

 

the bill of sale must tally on 12 points with the agreement

 

well done for standing your ground

 

ime realy interested if they return a copy of the bill of sale.

 

for ref

 

you can contact the high court direct but will cost you fifty quid

[miss ripped off]

Thank you will keep you posted

[applecart]

That's fantastic news - well done you : )

 

I took a quick look for any licenses held in the name of 'Roy Morgan'

and also looked for licenses for Trojan.......

 

Accepting that you did not give full details - my findings were:

 

Trojan Investments Limited - license lapsed on 15/06/93 - Co Reg No 1008755, and the lapsed licence No was 0044371 - based postcode SE15 2SY

 

Tojan Credit and Vehicle Brokers limited - license lapsed on 21/5/2006 - Co Reg No 2568468, and the lapsed licence No was 0313858 - based postcode W7 3ST

 

Trojan Consultants GB - license lapsed on 17/10/1996 - Co Reg No was 2789478, and the lapsed license No was 0360837 - based postcode OX11 8RS

 

Then there was information on a 'Mr Roy Herbert Morgan'

 

license No 0324831 lapsed 17/10/1996 - was a carpet specialist

 

License No 0468753 lapsed 26/5/2004 - was a carpet specialist but in addition to a credit brokerage license, this license also covered him for 'debt collection' post code area was EX16.

 

I would try to be sure that the 'Trojan' you speak of is not one of the above............and that the 'Mr Roy Morgan' you speak of is not Mr Roy Herbert Morgan'...........

[miss ripped off]

Unbelievable!!!!

I will certainly look into it, how on earth do these people get away with it!!

[applecart]

Also in answer to the post by postggj......................and to put a clearer prespective on the Registration of a Bill of Sale.........

 

Accept that; just because a Bill of Sale is Registered with the Supreme Court of Justice's stamp or seal on it - this does not on it's own cause the document to be 'legit' as your post implies.

 

It causes the document to be 'Registered'

For the document to be 'legit' - by this I mean - in order for the document to be 'valid' and 'enforceable' - it must also be correctly 'executed'

So, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but - please don't give advise of this nature as it is not strictly true and could cause some of those on the forum to be mislead, which I am sure is not your intention - but I hope this post will help keep things in perspective.

[miss ripped off]

Thanks for the info to find out about companies on the public register.

 

I have sent the info to the high court as above to see if the BOS is registered - lets see what comes back

 

Thanks again for all the help

[postggj]

applecart

 

just interested in your statement saying if the bill of sale is crap, the agreement may be null and void

 

please explain

 

i have different info

[applecart]

Post ggj

 

If you check the OFT guidelines you will find all the information you require there.

[applecart]

This pdf document from the OFT may help as well.

 

http://www.creditlaw.co.uk/Documents/OFT%20commentary%20on%20Bills%20of%20Sale.pdf

[wearecarless]

Hi Applecart

 

We have just recieved a letter from Gareth Thomas MP (minister of state for trade and consumer affairs).

 

In this letter he states that ' whilst the transfer of ownership under the Bill of Sale Act may not be shown during a typical hpi check, there is a searchable register held with the High Court.

 

You may also wish to be aware that the OFT will bring forward new guidance on irresponsible lending later this year. For more information you can visit The Office of Fair Trading: OFT launches consultation on irresponsible lending '

 

We are also been made aware of further changes that will be made but not yet public knowledge, these should protect people like ourselves who are third party victims of lbl (see thread by wearecarless for our story).

[applecart]

Hi Wearecarless

 

If I re-call correctly; you purchased a car that was owned previously by soemone who had an outstanding loan on it secured by a bos?

 

I don't think it is right for anyone to sell on a car that they have an outstanding loan on - and the practice of traders of taking these cars in part exchange and selling them on as though they are hpi clear is criminal.

 

But as these 'scams' come to light, I am sure something will be done to prevent it happening in due course.

 

Thankyou for the information on the further guidelines from the OFT - It appears to relate to mortgage companies on first viewing, however, because in the main a bos is a security on a chattel (namely a car) it's guidelines are useful. : )

[postggj]

i am getting my teeth into this now.

 

as i understand it ,

if a bos is worthless, any vehicle cant be secured on it thereby giving the consumer the rights under the cca 1974.

 

all the creditor can rely on then is the agreement, be it hire purchess, conditional sale, etc.

 

i know that bos were useless prior to 2005 that made the credit agreement crap as well.

 

can you explain applecart why an agreement secured by bill of sale is crap if the bos is void.

 

that link is only about security ref bill of sale.

 

i think this is an important matter and if you have relevent info on this, this would help a lot of caggers against the likes of acf, cygnet, and the funding co

[applecart]

Hi Postggj

 

Your conclusion based on the information in my previous post is what I've been trying to get across for the past 3-4 weeks.....

 

Putting it bluntly - If the Bill of Sale is given as a 'security' then it must be executed correctly - it is not enough for the lender to get it stamped by the High Court of Justice because if it does not follow all the laws, which are all contained within the BOS Act & CCA and, if it does not follow all the Regulations; (OFT Regs) then I'm afraid it is not an enforceable document and can be contested in a court of law.

 

But who should take the Action in Court? YOU or the LENDER?

 

The Answer is the LENDER - because if they believe they have a VALID BOS and they want to exercise their right to enforce the conditions within any Bill of Sale so drawn up by them, WHICH IS TO TAKE YOUR CAR - Then they must take YOU to court for remedy - why? - because if and where you default on the loan (as you would do, once you find the BOS is not worth the paper it is drawn up on) and a period of more than the legal 7 days surpasses without remedy; then the ball is in the lenders court to take action against YOU. YOU then should only have to DEFEND the case. (They should sue YOU for Breach of Contract and you will have all your facts of all the 'grounds' under which THEY have breached the contract as your defence; namely, all the errors of the BOS and non-compliance in relation to the BOS etc etc

 

What they tend to do - is send a company out to take your vehicle and in so doing; they ignore the legal remedies - which is illegal......and this is where the grey area is in many cases - Not enough people appear to be standing their ground on this issue - it is the Lender who should take you to court where you default on a loan agreement - not the other way round - nine times out of ten, they send an Agent to collect the car, whom tend to be un-licensed in their own right and is not covered by their OFT licence of the lender - totally ILLEGAL. (IF THE AGENT IS NOT LICENSED-HE CANNOT TAKE MONEY FROM YOU-AND UNDER NO CIRCMSTANCES SHOULD YOU LET THEM TAKE YOUR CAR) (The OFT produces guidelines on how to treat debtors and turning up at your home, un announced without a licence is NOT one of them)

 

So Where does the CCA come in?

 

It states in the OFT info that 'The Bill of Sale is given as security, and where this is provided in relation to a regulated consumer credit Agreement it must comply with section 105 of the Credit Consumer Act'

 

Appreciate firstly that a Bill of Sale on your car is not an 'Absolute Bill of Sale' it is a Bill of Sale offered as security - what this means is that - so long as they keep to their part of the contract (which is to meet all the laws of the BOS and the CCA and ensure all is correctly executed and duly signed and attested and 'rectified' if need be and give you the loan) and you keep to your part of the contract - which is to pay the instalments as set out and agreed upon) that so long as BOTH parties keep to THIER side of the Contract - all should be well and the CONDITION is that at the END of the Contract - they remove thier security over your car safe in the knowledge they have all the money loaned with agreed interest.

 

Now - Because the lender 'falters' at the first hurdle - i.e BOS not correctly executed - THEY Breach the Agreement - The Security instrument; namely the car is no longer a Security by virtue of thier Breach as stated within the OFT Regs.

 

SECURITY

Section 105 of the CCA

 

(1) Any security provided in relation to a regulated agreement shall be expressed in writing

(2) Regulation may prescribe, the form and content of documents ("security instruments") to be made in compliance with Subsection (1)

The BOS Act in it's Annexe shows the exact form and content prescribed for the BOS between you and the Lenders relying on the BOS Act as security - if it is not as laid out within the Act - then, the Contract fails on the above to sections of the CCA.

(3) Regulations under subsection (2) may in particular:-

(a) require specified information to be included in the prescrined manner in documents, and other specified material to be included and other specified material to be excluded

(b) contain requirements to ensure that specified information is clearly brought to the attention of the Surety, and that one part of a document is not given insufficient or excessive prominence compared with another.

This section confirms the reason why the form of the document is so important and should not be altered.

(4) A security is not properly executed unless:

(a) a document in the prescribed form, itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under subsection (2) is signed in the prescribed manner by or on behalf of the Surety, and

(b) The document embodies all the terms of the security, other than implied terms, and

© The document, when presented or sent for the purpose of being signed by or on behalf of the surety, is in such state that its terms are readily ledgible; and

(d) When the document is presented or sent for the purpose of being signed by or on behalf of the surety, there is also presented or sent a copy of the document

(5) A security instrument is not properly executed unless:

(a) Where the security is provided after, or at the time when, the regulated agreement is made, a copy of the executed agreement together with a copy of any other document referred to in it, is given to the surety at the time the security is provided, or

(b) Where the security is provided before the regulated agreement is made, a copy of the executed agreement together with a copy of any other document referred to in it, is given to the surety within seven days after the regulated agreement is made..

The OFT acknowledge that in most cases this does not happen - as most people seem to only be aware of the BOS when they can't make a payment and are told the lender will be coming for your car because their is a BOS

(6) Subsection (1) does not apply to a security provided by the debtor ot hirer

(7) IF: -

(a) In contravention of subsection (1) a security is not expressed in writing or

(b) a security instrument is improperly executed

The security, so far as provided in relation to a regulated agreement, is unenforceable against the surety on an order of the COURT ONLY

(8) If an application for an order under subsection (7) is dismissed (except on technical grounds only) section 106 (ineffective securities) shall apply to the security

(9) Regulations under section 60(1) shall include provision requiring documents embodying regulated agreements also to embody any security provided in relation to a regulated agreement by the debtor or hirer

SECTION 106

When, under any provision of this Act, this section is applied to any security provided in relation to a regulated agreement, then, subject to section 711 (saving for registered charges);

(a) the security , so far as it is so provided, shall be treated as never having effect

(b) any property lodged with the creditor or owner solely for the purposes of the security as so provided shall be returned by him forthwith

© the creditor or owner shall take any necessary action to remove or cancel an entry on any register, so far as the entry relates to the security as so provide and

(d) any amount received by the creditor or owner on realisation of the security shall so far as it is referable to the agreement, be repaid to the surety

Is this the information that you wanted Postggj? or do you think I need to expand? : )

[applecart]

By the way I believe the default notice period was extended to 14 days more recently : ) and they have to send you arrears letters, BEFORE they send you a default notice : )

[postggj]

Most Excerlent

 

Meny Thanks

[bullyuk]

applecart...one word...superstar.....

with my problems and ex franchisee of logbook loans I never thought I would get anywhere but with yours and tottys help have a nice little file comng together now....awaiting a few letters back as you know about and also BOS from the high courts now that i have the BOS number and away I go......

Im still waiting for the ex franchisee to get back to me about the bailiffs/debt collectors/saddos he has sent round 3 times now......all i want is there name and company details so i can do some digging myself....

its all gone very quiet......

cheers mate.....

[nowayjose]

Sorry to hijack this thread but can you please tell me who to make the £5.00 postal order out to(Ive already got the registration number) would it be the Royal Courts of Justice??

NWJ;)